The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Totally Off-Topic Discussions, Rants, Tire & Oil Threads, Etc. => Topic started by: Milo_357 on August 16, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
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OK folks... Oil - what brand and viscoity do you use?
Thanks!
Milo
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Argh! ADOT -
Sorry Milo, but if you haven't done internet forums alot involving motor vehicles of various sorts, this is the sort of thing that is akin to debating Roman Catholic vs Protestant, Christian vs everything else, Miracle Whip vs. Mayonaise, Ketchup .vs. Mustard, Great Taste .vs. Less Filling.... you get the picture. Our "Rants..." section is reserved for oil thread discussions because of this, and there are several in there already.
Oh, and among the various net-based acronyms, "ADOT" means "Another Damn Oil Thread"!, like DAMHIK means "Don't Ask Me How I Know", etc.. pretty much on any forum that is English-language based..
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Too funny, Mike, your ADOT. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
I'd love to see how this would play, ADOT again and again, on the Airheads List. [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
"Calling Snowbum, calling Tom Cutter, calling Joe Cuda... clean up on aisle 20W50."
Monte
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[movedhere] BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 [move by] Justin B..
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OK, Dell - I'll try to keep cool and give you my $.02 on what I use and why - which may be perfectly OK for me and no one else on the planet. Everyone's got to follow their own philosophy with whatever info they've got. Given my latitude/climate, I run 10w40 in all my bikes. It very rarely gets over 100F here, and there are usually a couple months at the start and end of the riding season where the temperatures will be at or around 32F. The 10W40 viscosity works for me and is easier for the starter to turn the engine on those cooler days when I still want to ride.
I use regular dino-juice in all my bikes, partly because some of them had dino juice in them for years ahead of my acquiring them, and SOMETIMES it has been observed that engines may experience leaks when switching to synthetic if the seals haven't been changed. (Similar happenings seemed to occur back in the 70s when folks switched from nondetergent oils to high detergent oils like Quaker State, but let's not fan the flames any more than necessary).. The other reason I stick with dino juice is because I change the oil every 3000 miles or at least once per year, depending on the bike/usage. The major advantage of the synthetic oils is extended mileage/change intervals, and if one isn't taking advantage of that aspect, then one isn't getting one's $$$ value out of the more expensive synth oils, IMHO. I'd rather stick with my more frequent oil changes and use the opportunity to survey the state of the bike/filters, etc. at those times, too.
Lastly, much has been said about ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-DithioPhosphate) in motor oils. The US EPA, the same folks who brought us MTBE which polluted our groundwater and now mandate 15% ethanol additive content to our fuel to keep their farm subsidy friends happy are also responsible for requiring the stepped removal of ALL phosphates from motor oil and motor fuels sold in the US. The issue with the phosphate situation is that more modern auto/truck engines, say, since 1990 or so don't use flat lifters/tappets and use rollers, or shim u/bucket designs running off overhead cams. These engines don't require these phosphates to operate well and they don't need the phosphates to guard against wear. The old fashioned, flat lifter engines like our airheads or the old flathead Ford cars NEED the phospohates to help lubricate and protect these flat, solid, high pressure interfaces on the lifters/pushrods. Years ago, before the major reductions in phosphates were enacted on motor oils, the automotive motor oil industry specification was "SG", and it specified a limit of something like 1500 ppm or 1800 ppm of this chemical phosphate content. This seemed to work OK and was adequate to protect our old engine parts. Over the years, regulations have forced motor oil manufacturers to reduce this level, and the latest motor oil industry specification is at revision "SM", I think. This specifies a limit of only a couple hundred ppm of phosphates content, which is too low to be of any good for our engines, in the opinion of many.
Some manufacturers still offer some product lines with higher ZDDP content for the smaller 'niche' market. Some do not. It is becoming harder and harder to find motor oils which still have the "SG" rating or phosophate content commensurate with that revision of the standard. However, there are a number of motor oil ZDDP additives which are being sold which can simply be added to your motor oil of choice which will give you an adequate level of protection, even if you are using modern level oils with virtually no ZDDP left in them from the factory.
I've gotta put my Nomex suit on now - hope that this helped you in some way!
Flame on!
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WOOHOO AN ADOT.
The best brand of oil for these bikes is Spectro Golden 20W50 - a Synthetic Blend.
Unfortunately it is really expensive and hard to come by.
At Autozone you can get the 20W50 Valvoline VR-1 racing oil. It has lots of the same additives at half the price and a higher percentages of ZDDP than the 20W50 Valvoline Motorcycle oil. I use this April - October. When it starts getting cold I will switch to the Valvoline 10W40 Motorcycle oil as it has the most additives in the 10W40 class of oils that I can find. This makes the bike easier to start in the winter months. This summer Autozone put the valvoline oils on sale for something like $3.00 a quart. I bought a case.
In the tranny/drive shaft/final drive I use the Valvoline 85W140 April through October Synthetic blend (dark blue Bottle - there is a white bottle which is dino I think). My choice is subjective: the 85W140 feels like it shifts smoother in the tranny for me. During the same winter months I use the 80W90. I have done it this way for years now. The tranny is at about 107,000 miles and counting. The U-joint in the drive shaft has been rebuilt once.
I need to be able to walk into any Autozone and get what works no matter what part of the country I happen to be in.
On the tranny oil thing it is not so much what I use but that I change it twice a year. I think that is the really important thing. Changing the gear oils twice a year helps keep moisture away from expensive bits in the drive train.
Stay away from pure synthetics unless you know that every seal in your motor is brand new /perfectly installed/made after 1980 (the cut off year for synthetic oil compatibility.)
BTW - I use only the BMW filters. I like the quality. I would use the WIX filter if I could but the filter is 1/8" longer than the stock BMW bendy filter and I don't like the idea of crushing the filter to install it.
Read the article about how many shims you need to keep the proper pressure on the $3000 o-ring (Snowbum). Then throw away the paper gasket for ever more!
Good luck. We are all counting on you. 8-)
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Castrol Actevo 4T 20W50 Mineral (€6.95 a litre and the only one on Snowbum's list that I can source locally)
Snowbum's recommendations for Airheads (updated April 2011):
(1) Mobil 1 V-Twin in 20W50 grade.
(2) Golden Spectro 4 in 20W50
(3) BMW 20W50 NON-synthetic motorcycle oil.
(4) Valvoline 4-stroke motorcycle oil, in 20W50 (or 10W40 for quite cold areas).
(5) Shell Rotella-T in grade 15W40;
(6) Castrol's 4T oil, (and Grand Prix oil, which is the SAME OIL) in either grade 10W40 or 20W50, as appropriate to your climate.
Lots of detail at:
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/oilessay.htm
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Wow.... and all I wanted was a heads up on oil for an oil change... :D
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Well, you did ask, and these are some of the kindest, most civil comments I've ever seen on an oil thread. Pick you oil, but remember to change early, and change often. (And even that comment can evoke controversy!)
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Well, you did ask, and these are some of the kindest, most civil comments I've ever seen on an oil thread. Pick you oil, but remember to change early, and change often. (And even that comment can evoke controversy!)
From Snowbum:
"I will BET that you NEVER have heard of this!.... Too frequent oil changes can INCREASE wear!! I am not going to spell out why, and leave that to your imagination!...but, it is true. Your gut tells you I am totally wrong, right? ...as noted above, try this (there are other more in-depth articles on this subject): http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/"
:)
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Well, you did ask, and these are some of the kindest, most civil comments I've ever seen on an oil thread.
That's why I decided to consign all DOTs to the rants section - no flames allowed at the OP but any wacko suggestions are fair game! [smiley=evil.gif]
Oh, I use Mobil 1 15w50 with some ZDDP additive from Eastwood...
This thread reminds me I need to change oil in the RTP. Suraklyn and I have decided to try the Amsoil Synthetic Motorcycle Oil in 20w50.
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Milo, check in with Bob. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ That should keep you busy for a while. The good news is, you get to decide what's best for you and don't let any of those crackpots out there try to tell you otherwise! [smiley=beehive.gif]
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I used Spectro 20w50 up until a few years ago, when the price went past $12US a quart locally .
I now use BMW branded 20w50 oil, it's made by Spectro and was $9US per quart last November .
I would use 'regular' dino oil, if the temps here weren't so high in the 'hot season' here in a suburb of hell .
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Oh, I use Mobil 1 15w50 with some SDDP additive from Eastwood...
<snip>
Synthetics! Heresy! Off with his head! ;)
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Milo, check in with Bob.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/That should keep you busy for a while.
Of all the oil web sites this one impressed me the most. The guy has a philosophy of thin oil is best because it increases the flow rate. And you have to say this about him - making your own decisions on what oil to put in a brand new Ferrari is the ultimate in "practice what you preach"
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Oh, I use Mobil 1 15w50 with some SDDP additive from Eastwood...
<snip>
Synthetics! Heresy! Off with his head! ;)
Huh? I use AMSOIL 20W-50 V-Twin motorcycle oil in both of my bikes, and my acne cleared up!
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Oh, I use Mobil 1 15w50 with some SDDP additive from Eastwood...
<snip>
Synthetics! Heresy! Off with his head! ;)
Huh? I use AMSOIL 20W-50 V-Twin motorcycle oil in both of my bikes, and my acne cleared up!
"...and my acne cleared up."
Now that's funny!
Most excellent, but did your marriage tackle grow as promised? [smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
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I have some Amsoil to put in the RTP at next OC and I just put some of Gumby's snake-oil in the Dawg since it does boast about ZDDP on the back label. It was only about a quarter more than the Castrol GTX and I don't have to put $5 worth of ZDDP additive in it so it's actually a bunch cheaper in my case. But, paying over $5.50/qt for conventional oil still burns by a$$!
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<snip> But, paying over $5.50/qt for conventional oil still burns by a$$!
I really really want to use Specto Golden 20W50. But the expense of it is just amazing plus it is hard to get. :(
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I'm using Castrol Edge Sport 25-50....made for high performance V8's. Not a winter oil,but our winters are pretty mild compared to other countries...I just don't ride below 10C.
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Next up. Preferred filter. [ducking into corner]
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Next up. Preferred filter. [ducking into corner]
Wait, more than one filter???
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You want the ones that are round when they go in and round when they come out!
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I tried the Wix Bendy filter and it didn't go in far enough for me to be comfortable with it. So I took it out and measured it and it was longer by about an 1/8"! So I'm sticking with the BMVV Bendy filter kit.
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I tried the Wix Bendy filter and it didn't go in far enough for me to be comfortable with it.So I took it out and measured it and it was longer by about an 1/8"!So I'm sticking with the BMVV Bendy filter kit.
I have a new bendy filter on the shelf that didn't fit for the same reason. Can't remember the make. Might use it one day if can sort some shorter end rubbers.
I won't attempt to use a filter that's too long as I believe excessive compression can kink the pleats particularly on the straight filters and that can lead to a collapsed filter.
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I've used nothing but OEM filters on the BMW bikes since new .
Personally, after seeing what kind of oil pressures these bikes have when cold, I am staying with the flex/bendable/hinged filters .
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I run mine on the cheapest 'classic' or 'old car' oil I can find. I usually find it at the supermarket.
I do however draw a line to 'reconstituted oil'...You have got to draw the line somewhere.
Its only in there for a short time (normal servicing intervals or 1 year).
And you have a filter.....
Synthetic is far too expensive and you will not be able to take advantage of any if its benefits. Its an aircooled motor built to the 'loose' aircooled tolerances.
This means that you will get contaminants in the oil very quickly and that it why the service intervals are short - or at least the oil changes are short - filter every other change.
Synthetics are for watercooled engines built to tighter tolerances. The oil stays 'cleaner' for longer. Which means that it can stay in the engine for longer.......Very simplistic explanation.
Synthetic oil won't make your airhead go any faster or put you at the front of the queue at the Pearly Gates when the time comes. ;) i.e. you are not more worthy than me >:(
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Rotella T6, highlly regarded by BITOG.
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Barry had a good post about what to look for in oil.
It's not all about ZDDP... that is a lubrication of last resort. An oil with a higher High Temperature/High Shear does not lose its film on important parts (like tappets) as easily as an oil with a lower HTHS. Synthetics tend to have a much higher HTHS, so they can get away with less ZDDP
He made an example of Pump Deuce Diesels from VW, which use the cam to not only open valves but also control the injectors. If they don't get the best juice, you're looking at a new camshaft. And guess what... the VW spec oils aren't just your grandpa's oil with a lot of extra zinc.
That said... go look at the data sheets from the manufacturers. It will really help you pick an appropriate oil. Just about anything these days is better than what the bike would have gotten 30 years ago.
Also... I think Snowbum has stopped encouraging Rotella-T in high speed engines.
I use Kendal GT-1 20w50 conventional motor oil. $3 a quart, a good amount of zinc, and the HTHS exceeds the minimum requirements for the API service (i think it's 3.7cP)
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Straight Dyno oil is getting hard to come by in the supermarkets.
Might have to start using semi-synthetic ::)
Rev. Light
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And guess what...the VW spec oils aren't just your grandpa's oil with a lot of extra zinc.
Nicely put Luca.
I think you explained it better than I did.
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Great thread. Have any of the detailed posts in here been 'stickied'?