The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Totally Off-Topic Discussions, Rants, Tire & Oil Threads, Etc. => Topic started by: Fraggle on August 19, 2013, 01:05:04 PM
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Once again a fairly silly question...
In the UK what grade oils do you use in the engine, gearbox, swinging arm & final drive.
The manual I have gives a bunch of charts relating temperature, load etc etc and just confuse me.
BTW has anyone used any additives - Active8 or Slick50 & what were the results?
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I wouldn't waste the money on Slick 50 products, I tried the oil treatment on my '91 Honda CRX just after 10,000 miles and saw no difference what so ever .
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Hello !
For the engine, BMW state one should not go above API SH level. (modern oil lack certain lubricating additives our engines expect in the oil)
BMW also forbids the use of any additive in oils or petrol (except the lead substitute in the gas)
In practice a good (read reputable brand) mineral 20W50 rated API SG is fine from -8°C up to 40 °C temperature.
For the gearbox and swing arm and final drive, a good API GL5 80W90 oil is fine (also from a reputable brand) and some people use 75w140 gearbox oil in the tranny saying it gives smoother gear change. (I've not seen this with my gearbox so buying a 2 liter can of 80W90 is enough for the whole bike)
For the fork, use between 7.5 to 15 grade fork oil and see for yourself which one suit you better.
Hope this helps.
P.S. I prefer buying oil with a petrol company name on the label instead of chain store labeled ones because the contents is more consistent when buying from a "name brand". Chain store change contracts as soon as they find one supplier cheaper than the preceding one, so you never know what you'll get in the can.
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I use a high quality semi synthetic 10W40 which I believe is suitable for my circumstances based on:
The moderate UK climate. BMW are OK with 10W40 up to 20 Deg C
and
I measure my oil temperature which is always too low.
We are stuck between two conflicting requirements - maintaining an oil film at the high stress points like cam lobs and cold start wear due to delayed oil circulation from cold (including of course to the cam lobes which are the last point of call in the oils journey around the engine). I ride down to - 10Deg C in the winter and 20W50 is like treacle at that temperature so I stopped using it. You can use thin oil in the winter and thicker oil in the summer but that's seems like a retrograde step and is after all why multigrades were invented.
The perfect oil would be thin enough in the winter and thick enough in a hot engine. Perhaps something like 5W50.
One quality to look for if the info is available is the HTHS (High Temperature High Sheer) viscosity. This is a measure of how good the oil is at maintaining an oil film at 150 Deg C. A high HTHS figure is what stops the oil film breaking down and leaving ZDDP as the last barrier before metal to metal contact.
For oil specs my preference is to look for the modern ACEA A3/B3 European oil standards.
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I never really understood that ZDDP thing... is it good or bad?
I remember a thread in the forum talking about the newer oils vs old engines (can´t find it now) and that some component was eliminated in the newer oils...
Can a guru elaborate a little more about that?
Thanks!!!
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ZDDP plates the bearing surfaces so that if the oil film breaks down either through lack of oil at a cold start or under extreme high temperature and pressure the ZDDP acts as a sacrificial layer preventing metal to metal contact. But here's the rub (pun intended) this protective layer wears off and it is temperature activated so that it doesn't get deposited again until the oil gets hot (80 Deg C is one figure I've seen).
And if you commute daily like me and the oil doesn't ever get to 80 C ?
This is why I've been banging on about HTHS which is what prevents the oil film breaking down in the first place and it's also why I worry more about how thin the oil is for fast cold start circulation than I do about how thick it is when it's hot.
Some info about HTHS which is the viscosity at 150 deg C:
SAE is the Oil viscosity standard the entire industry goes by. This standard is called J300.
A 30 weight oil is required to have a minimum HTHS of 2.9
40 weight oils are split in this regard:
0w-40, 5w-40, and 10w-40 grades of motor oil are required to have a minimum HTHS of 2.9
15w-40, 20w-40, 25w-40, and straight 40 grades of motor oil are required to have a minimum HTHS of 3.7
A 50 weight oil is required to have a minimum HTHS of 3.7
All the above HTHS numbers are MINIMUMS. Some motor oils will have a HTHS at the minimum level, and others will have a HTHS which is much higher.
HTHS is the main specification to determine the high temperature protection that a motor oil gives. This is the protection that a thin film of oils provides which prevents engine parts from rubbing against each other and wearing out. If choosing a thinner oil like 10W40 you really want to check the oil has higher than the minimum spec. You can also see from the minimum requirements that if you can't find 10W40 with a higher HTHS or the info is just not available then 15W40 is a safer bet if you still want something thinner than 20W50.
Getting back to ZDDP
Because of concerns that ZDDP poisons Cat converters the most recent API SM oil grades have reduced the maximum allowable ZDDP content to 0.08% (800 PPM, Parts per Million) from 0.10%, 1000 PPM.
The 0.10% limit had been in place for approx. 15 years in the USA and since 1986 in Australia. The concern about ZDDP levels is relatively recent and we strive for the old SG oil spec with 1200PPM, yet main stream auto oils have not had that level for a very long time.
No question that ZDDP is a good thing (if your oil gets hot) but you can have too much of a good thing. High levels of ZZDP cause corrosion and upset the detergent qualities of the oil so I wouldn't recommend trying to out smart the oil companies by DIY addition of ZDDP as an oil additive.
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millers make an oil specifically for er, 'older' bikes specially blended etc blah blah. its the same colour as my bike so it must be good!
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we'll be on about nitrogen in tyres next.....
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Must use only air imported from Germany in a container labeled BMW. [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
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I already put 80 % nitrogen into my tires. Done so since I got the bike new. Works like a charm !
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80% ! theres your problem , it should be 80.234 % ! obviously you're not using the official kind that me and bob W do .^^^^^ mmmm..... [smiley=3stooges.gif]
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Behave Mr head...lol
I use Castrol Classic I have steered clear of synthetics having read reports of seal failure.
Lou
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I can't believe you clowns have started a "DOT" in the tech section!! This started out with a fairly straightforward (to me anyway) question and now is starting to take on a different flavor.
Don't make me go get the belt...
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Thank you Barry, as always, I learn new stuff from you!!!
Will be paying more attention to the numbers on my oil... fortunately, I dont live in a place with extreme temperatures across the year, but it does get hot here!!
Cheers!!!
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WOOHOO an ADOT!
Valvoline VR-1 has a high ZDDP and is availaible at AUTOZONE. As to HTHS - I'm going to have to look into that one....
Engine: Valvoline 20W50 VR1 Summer Valvoline 10W40 Motorcyle oil winter(for easy starts!).
Tranny: 800cc Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
Drive shaft: 100cc Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
Final Drive: 250cc (bottom of threaded filler neck) Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
So this means you changes the oil in the Tranny, Drive shaft, and Final Drive twice a year -- Yesh Yesh you do!
Do it! 8-)
Clown Posse
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I can't believe you clowns have started a "DOT" in the tech section!! This started out with a fairly straightforward (to me anyway) question and now is starting to take on a different flavor.
Don't make me go get the belt...
I laugh and laugh...
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I can't believe you clowns have started a "DOT" in the tech section!! This started out with a fairly straightforward (to me anyway) question and now is starting to take on a different flavor.
Don't make me go get the belt...
Sorry dad............... does anyone use tyres ???
Lou [smiley=Kick.gif]
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WOOHOO an ADOT!
As to HTHS - I'm going to have to look into that one....
As to oils, HTLS = High Temp/Low Shear
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I can't believe you clowns have started a "DOT" in the tech section!! This started out with a fairly straightforward (to me anyway) question and now is starting to take on a different flavor.
Don't make me go get the belt...
It happens everywhere. This today on the Airlist. Rings true here too.
Welcome to the Airlist,where the inquiry "What time is it?" invariably
results in seven replies on how to build a watch, three asking who
cares what time it is, and nobody actually says "It's 3:54PM EDT."
Tom Cutter
Yardley, PA
[smiley=ROTFLMAO.gif]
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WOOHOO an ADOT!
Valvoline VR-1 has a high ZDDP and is availaible at AUTOZONE. As to HTHS - I'm going to have to look into that one....
Engine: Valvoline 20W50 VR1 Summer Valvoline 10W40 Motorcyle oil winter(for easy starts!).
Tranny: 800cc Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
Drive shaft: 100cc Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
Final Drive: 250cc (bottom of threaded filler neck) Valvoline Semi Synthetic (dark blue bottle) 85W140 summer 80W90 Winter.
So this means you changes the oil in the Tranny, Drive shaft, and Final Drive twice a year -- Yesh Yesh you do!
Do it! 8-)
Clown Posse
May I ask what the temperature range is when you run 10w40?
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I run 10W40 all year round in a climate where temperatures over 25 Deg C are very rare. The chart below is one reason why I am happy to do so.
To my knowledge this is the latest oil viscosity chart applicable to airheads. It was issued by BMW in 1995 and supersedes the charts in your owners manuals. You can see that they approve of 10W40 upto 20 Deg but then just to cause confusion there is an acceptance at higher temperatures of "special oils" 5W-X or 10W-X where X is equal to or greater than 40.
Unfortunately they didn't define "special" My best guess is that special means high quality synthetic or semi synthetic as they would always have higher HTHS specs than mineral oils.
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Welcome to the Airlist,where the inquiry "What time is it?" invariably
results in seven replies on how to build a watch, three asking who
cares what time it is, and nobody actually says "It's 3:54PM EDT."
Monte,
I loved that because it's so true but also because he is as guilty as anyone else.
e.g. From a recent post - What torque do I use on my caliper clamping bolts ?
Response from TC - You shouldn't have split the caliper and it's now only fit to be a paper wieght.
Followed by any number of people who have sucessfully spilt and re-clamped the caliper with no problems and who actually offer up some suggested torque figures.
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[smiley=thumbup.gif] Roger THAT, Barry.