The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Totally Off-Topic Discussions, Rants, Tire & Oil Threads, Etc. => Topic started by: Bob_Roller on November 02, 2011, 04:13:34 PM
-
Had to replace the battery on my oilhead today, just about left me stranded last night .
On an oilhead, you need to remove the fuel tank to get to the battery, a bit of a job compared to an R65 .
While I had the tank off, I looked at the air filter, it needed replacement, so I stopped and went to the local BMW dealer for an air filter .
While I was already there, I might as well get an oil filter and four quarts of BMW 20w50 oil (it's made by Spectro Oils), I've got an oil change coming up at the end of the month on the oilhead .
The parts manager told me they just got 1 gallon containers of the 20w50 oil in, the cost was the same as three quarts, if you purchased them in quart bottles .
I don't know how many members here use BMW oil, but thought I'd let you know it was available, at least here in North America .
-
What was the price for the gallon jug and is it API-SG rated?
-
The oil is SG/SH rated .
Cost is $32.00 per gallon, the single quart bottles are $10.95 each .
BMW part number : 07510038648 .
-
Jiminy friggin crickets! That oil costs as much per gallon as maple syrup! And, I know what I'd rather spend that kind of money on.. :D
Even back when I had a six figure annual salary, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on motor oil - maybe I'm just cheap.
-
I've got to admit I have never paid that much for oil in my life and I'm not likely to when I change the oil every 2000 miles
Problem with oil is it got fashionable.
What I mean by that is when 20W 50 was all there was, oil was cheap.
Now that all new cars use fancy synthetic 5W 30 oils it's become fashionable for all oil to be expensive. It's mostly marketing. I can remember years ago when the same oil in Europe was vastly more expensive than in the UK. There can't have been any good reason other than marketing. They just price what they think the market can stand.
I've been looking into 15W 40 dual purpose oils that meet the European ACEA A3/B3 standards for both petrol and light duty diesel engines. These are reckoned to be more demanding standards than the API rating. Not used any yet though
-
I don't like paying that much for oil, but with the extreme temperatures that I ride in for around six months a year, I really think it's a must .
I've got a temperature indicating dipstick on the '81 R65 .
The average 'hot season' air temps are in the 105-110 F (41-43C) range (in the shade) .
At those air temps, the oil temperature is routinely in the 250-275 F (121-135C) area at highway speeds .
Not uncommon for me to have to reduce my speed, to keep the oil temp out of the red zone on the dipstick (275 and above), if I am out for an extended ride .
When it decides to get really hot, 115-118F (46-48C), I cannot ride at posted speed limits (usually75 mph) on limited access highway, 60 mph is about the maximum .
I mentioned before, some of the temps I routinely encounter, road surface temps of 180-190 F (82-88C), the air temp at about cylinder height on expressways in the late afternoon are usually in the 145 F. (63c) area .
I don't feel comfortable with standard oils in the bikes .
Our daytime highs have finally fallen out of the 90's F. (low to mid 30's C) this week .
-
Bob
With those operating conditions I can see why you would want the best.
Most of the time my oil only gets as hot as your road surface !
-
Like Bob I often ride in high temperatures in the good weather that average around 30 - 35 celcius and sometimes get up to 40+. Oil here in Oz is around $70 aussie for decent bike oil but I do use a synthetic based oil not a mineral oil.
I recently read in an Aussie bike mag that it was more beneficial to all road bikes to use only straight mineral oils. Would anyone like to comment on this as I would like to know others experiences and perhaps someone might have - in simple terms - technical info/experience as to why one type of oil is better to use. Thanks guys.
-
Adrian -
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1313516829
-
Thanks nhmaf for the link - I'll get reading soon. :o
-
The oil temps I quoted, are with an OEM BMW oil cooler installed . :o :o
-
You might want to look at Rotella T6 synthetic in 5w-40. It's rated SM as well as for diesels.
-
If it is rated "SM" then it has practically no ZDDP in it, which is a problem for these old flat tappet engines - I'd use ZDDP additive running in those conditions if I had to use SM rated synthetic in my airhead.
-
I had rear main seal leakage problems when I tried Mobil 1 motorcycle oil about 10 years ago .
I'm not overly enthusiastic about trying full synthetic oil again .
There are riders that have not had any issues with Mobil 1 in their airhead bikes, sadly I'm not one of them .
-
I, too, fitted an oil temp dip stick last weekend and spent the afternoon out & about in traffic. Ambient was about 23 deg C and the oil temp was at 120 deg C; just on the red line. What temperature should the oil be at, please?
EDIT: I should mention that I had new rings fitted 1000k's ago. It might still be a bit tight.
2nd EDIT: The mechanic at the workshop that passed "Dexter" for registration tald me that you can use any sort of car oil in them. Dexter has to share a garage with an Hyundai Getz; I'm not sure how he will take to sharing the same oil. :)
-
Just changed my oil this afternoon after what was probably the last 25 mile run I may get in this winter. Air temperature was down to 6 or 7 Deg C when I got back. Oil temperature when drained was only 75 Deg C - nearly cool enough to stick my finger in. Ideal oil temperature is in the range 100 - 120 deg C so Graeme yours temperature was better than mine. No way in the world am I going to use a 20W 50 when the oil only gets that hot.
I used the last of my Shell X100 super 15W 40 which is an SG/CD rated heavy duty petrol/diesel oil. Wish I could find some more.
-
To steal a line from the ole river boat pilot "the importance of more than 500 ppm of "Z" has been greatly exaggerated. But, you can buy an tube of additive if necessary. Bob the oil guy "BITOG .com" has enough info that you can read yourself to sleep on the topic.
-
The R65 runs on the hot side.
Due to gearing, the engine runs at a higher rpm and I think the R65 has a few less cooling fins on the cylinder .
Before I installed the OEM oil cooler on the bike, I would see oil temps in excess of 300 F (150C), after the cooler was installed, I can keep the temps around 275F (135C) if I watch my speed.
I've been told, you don't want to run regular oils at the temps I've seen on my R65 .
That's why I've gone with a semi-synthetic .
I've been in Phoenix since October, '93 and have put approximatly 65,000 miles on the bike since I've been here, so I think I'm doing alright with my oil selection .
Looks like you've got the bike back on the road just in time for the best conditions of the ridng season .
I had a bit cool conditions this morning on the way to work, 42F (6C), but warmed up to 70F (21C) by the time I left for home at 1430, it's 80F (27C) in the garage at 1630 right now .
I, too, fitted an oil temp dip stick last weekend and spent the afternoon out & about in traffic. Ambient was about 23 deg C and the oil temp was at 120 deg C; just on the red line. What temperature should the oil be at, please?
EDIT: I should mention that I had new rings fitted 1000k's ago. It might still be a bit tight.
2nd EDIT: The mechanic at the workshop that passed "Dexter" for registration tald me that you can use any sort of car oil in them. Dexter has to share a garage with an Hyundai Getz; I'm not sure how he will take to sharing the same oil. :)
-
Thanks Rob; it's early spring here so we will see temps on the odd occasion up to 40 deg C with regular 33's when summer hit's. It gets hotter further north & west of Sydney. I'll check on the oil cooler. I was thinking after I fitted the guage that I might have been better off living in ignorance.
-
If by chance you are considering a non-OEM oil cooler, these bikes have high oil pressure .
150 psi on a cold start-up in cool weather is not uncommon .
Most oil coolers are not made for these pressures .
-
ZDDP isn't the only thing which protects flat tappets, and the stress on a NASCAR V8, rule limited to flat tappets, is many times higher than on an airhead. I'd like to see some good data on actual airhead failures directly related to lack of ZDDP as I have seen comments which suggest that 1500 ppm is overkill for a non-racing engine.
-
Is higher stress for a couple hours before an engine tear down is likely to occur anyway (NASCAR), any worse than a lower level of stress for, say 100K miles before a tear down is deemed acceptable (airhead)?
BMW, and others specified SG rated oil, which is at the 1500 ppm level. There are photos on the internet of pitted&worn lifters from airheads. Now, it is likely we can't get a notary public to guarantee that those engines perhaps didn't have other issues, were run low on oil, etc. but that is pretty much the case for anything we find on the internet. I personally can't argue with any supporting proof that 1500 is the minimum or 1200 is, or 1000, or even 800. But in general, I think that more is better than less in this case, given the metallurgy involved and mechanical design of the engine with the properties of the motor oil at the time it was made.
Many of the automotive gearheads with old style street rods and weekend club race car owners with flat tappet engines are heavily into using the ZDDP additive on their engines, too, so it isn't just an airhead/BMW thing. I'm going to be conservative and favor the side of many others who've collectively more data and info than I have on this topic, and try to keep ZDDP in my airheads' crankcases. I'd certainloy be willing to read and learn about the experiments of others in this area, but am not willing to experiment on my own vehicles.
-
Just keep in mind that NEW BMWs and other makes use converters, so the oil sold for THEM, motorcycle or not, has to meet the same Federally mandated spec for low ZDDP that automobile oil must. SO, is there a "special special" BMW oil just for old airheads? DO I have to buy NASCAR team racin' oil now? Sorta like the Harley boys sayin' you had to use "racin" gas.
-
All new vehicles with catalytic converters must AVOID using the higher ZDDP oil specifically because the phosphates react with the high temperature catalyst and shortens the service life of the converters. But, all engines WITHOUT catalytic converters AND with flat tappet style engines have the same basic need for the ZDDP. Though, probably no one will care whether their 5HP lawn mowever engine will last 100K miles or not..
This is why there are now "boutique" motorcycle/gearhead oils with higher ZDDP content, but they are pricey. Or, you buy whatever modern engine oil you like, and if it has API rating of "SJ", "SL", SM, or SN you just put in some ZDDP oil additive, which is available in various automotive supply stores that at least try to cater to "gearheads" and don't just carry wiper blades, floor mats and mud guards. Personally, I am going the oil additive route myself as I think it is less expensive over the long run.
http://www.barsproducts.com/4401.htm?gclid=CPP45L_Pp6wCFQd_5Qodk2hU3Q
-
I have some sympathy with Herr Stigs questioning posts above. In the automotive world so many words have now been written on the subject of ZDDP that no sane person can read them all or should that be than no person can read them all and remain sane. I'm starting to worry the ZDDP issue is bordering on hysteria.
For my own part I've been finding evidence that The European ACEA A3/B3 classifications allow more phosphorus and zinc than than the recent API SM spec oils. Something in the range 1000 - 1200 ppm. This seems to be backed up by comparisons which show ACEA A3/B3 wear limits set at 1/4 to 1/6 th of those for the API SM spec.
For anyone seriously interested in risking their sanity I can recommend researching the ACEA A3/B3 specs. This web site is certainly worth exploring for the performance comparison tool.
http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html
and this article if you can wade through it all has some good things to say about ACEA A3/B3 for use in your Porsche.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
It's looking like my next oil purchase will be an ACEA A3/B3 15W/40
-
Just changed my oil this afternoon after what was probably the last 25 mile run I may get in this winter. Air temperature was down to 6 or 7 Deg C when I got back. Oil temperature when drained was only 75 Deg C - nearly cool enough to stick my finger in. Ideal oil temperature is in the range 100 - 120 deg C so Graeme yours temperature was better than mine. No way in the world am I going to use a 20W 50 when the oil only gets that hot.
I used the last of my Shell X100 super 15W 40 which is an SG/CD rated heavy duty petrol/diesel oil. Wish I could find some more.
I missed your reply earlier Barry. I'd guess that the temp then at 33 deg C ambient will be 130deg. C. Getting a bit hot. I'm not sure what's in it as I got the Rings done by the local guy who did a good job.
I've only done 1000k's and most of those over the last month or so, so the oil is a year old. Looks OK but might be worth changing.
It's runs like a dream when warmed up. :)
-
OK - I think I getting the oil temp dipstick...
Spectrol Golden is now above $10.00 a quart too. I switched to the Valvoline VR1 20W50 because of the cost and because it has the ZDDP stuff in it. About to change to 10W40 for the colder months for easier starting. Valvoline 10W40 motorcycle oil has more ZDDp than their other 10W40s.
It's straight dino oil though.
I pulled the Lockhart Oil cooler off about a month ago for fear of cold start high oil pressure. The Lockharts will not split until the ambient temperature gets below about 25'F. Ask me how I know this... :(
-
I'm use with the Shell Rotella T6 in 5-40 and find a good ZDDP additive to keep the level up to about 1000 PPM. I figure that an outfit like Shell has other additives up their sleeve which can compensate for the ZDDP loss, especially in their heavy duty car and diesel oil. By inference, oil grades are SUPPOSED to be backwards compatible, that is, an "SM" ought to cover you on an engine which was designated for SJ, however oil companies seem to avoid any public commitment on the specifics of the issue. ZDDP is supposed to be the "last resort" to prevent metal to metal damage when oil or oil systems are stressed beyond normal design llimits, not something which needs to be in the oil for every day lubrication--unless, of course, the design was "ot so hot" to begin with. (Dare that be said about something designed by Herr Deiter & Co) Meanwhile, my son has expropriated a case of Castrol 20-50 SJ which has been in my basement since the mid 80's for his Nighthawk.
(This is NOT an attempt to hijack this thread into one about how long oil lasts in an unopened can.
-
I did a search for shelf life of auto oilsa a few years back .
From what I remember, regular auto oils were good for 3-4 years in an unopened container, stored at temps in the mid 70's F.
It didn't take much searching to find the answers .
-
At one time when I had several cars I used to buy oil in big drums and take 5 years to use it all. Never had any problems. I suspect the oil companies are with some self interest going to be conservative with their recommendations and in practice it may last a little longer than they say.
One thing I did read is that oil stored below freezing temperatures can be permanently thickened which is bad for start up circulation. Not sure how much there is in that. Anybody in Northern latitudes who leaves the car out at night is storing the oil below freezing.
When I was a lad it was not unusual for drivers to put a paraffin sump heater under the car overnight. I would consider an electric sump heater if such a thing was easily available. The running costs would be offset by better mileage not to mention lower wear.
-
I work in the aircraft maintenance department for an airline, just about every 'comsumable' type item : oil, grease, sealants, adhesives and paint have shelf lives .
I have yet to find a shelf life for the oil that is used in the turbine engines, could be that we go through so much oil, that the chances of it sitting around for any length of time is quite slim .
-
Is the big cities (ha!) in Alaska provisions have been made for plugging block heaters in at the parking meters.