The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: mikethebike on June 27, 2008, 03:20:21 PM
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My bike sits for most of the year and has an old battery. I bought some EDTA after reading about it on the net (Homepower). Has anyone used it? I've put a solution in my battery and it's bubbling away merrily. The sulphates are coming off as I type! I was going to buy another battery when I found that one cell was down on volts compared to the others. Reports on the net say it works. I'll let you folks know what happens.
Mike
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Never heard of it - but curious!
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Ahhh...what's "EDTA"??
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Look here!
http://www.webspawner.com/users/edta/
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OK! Report so far. I added the specified amount to the one dodgy cell and it immediately started bubbling. (Make sure there is plenty of ventilation due to gassing off) I checked it after a couple of hours and the lead plates were definitely more visible. I decide "What the heck!" and treated all the cells. Much bubbling and some slight heat. (I didn't have to remove any electrolyte as it was below the full mark anyway) The bubbles increase the volume of liquid but I had no spillage. It started to calm down late last night so I left it overnight. I checked the overall voltage and it was less but I understand that this is normal. I checked the previously dodgy cell and it was more balanced to the others. It's now on trickle charge. More later! Mike ::)
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I put the battery back on the bike this morning and purposely left the fuel off and no choke. The battery cranked over well and didn't start to die as it has been doing. Fuel and choke on and it started up straight away. It is running well at the moment so fingers crossed we'll see how she goes.
Mike
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Impressive! [smiley=thumbup.gif]
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A weak epsom salt aka Magnesium sulfate solution works.
Does your product tell you the active ingrediant?
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EDTA only has one ingredient, unless you want to know the various elements in it.
I want to see pictures of Sadie enjoying a ride in a side car. A movie on you-tube would be even better.
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It's ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid!
Mike
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Is that what's in the old VX-6 battery additive that used to be widely sold? I may try your "snake-oil" in an old BMW battery I have laying around to see if it will allow it to take a full charge again...
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This is what I am referring to. It has worked for me every time I have done it. On batteries for diesel rigs & bikes. The surging technique for the NiCads saved me some bucks when I was using cordless tools every day.
http://ysuusy.com/Lead_Acid_Car_Battery_Repair.html
Ed
Sadie would consider all offers for side car rides.
I am working all angles to find one, but cash is scarce at the moment.
I am thinking if I can find the frame & wheel that I can fab a body & mounts.
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Update. Bike sat for a week. Started with no problem and sounded healthy on the starter. I'm very pleased!
Mike :)
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Further update- Bike sat till today and cranked up with a lively starter. EDTA gets the thumbs up from me. I would have bought a new battery by now otherwise.
Mike
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OK, I have a bmw R65 battery out in the garage that won't take or hold a full charge anymore. Where did you get this stuff?
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I saw it on here:-
http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/index.htm
I have to say, I was not convinced when I read the info' but I thought for the sake of a few quid, I would give it a go and up to now it works. The site also has desulphating chargers etc. that you can purchase in kit form or built up for an extra fee.
Mike
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OK, Mike, on your glowing endorsement I ordered some of this snake-oil, and just for grins I tossed in a "High-Power Desulfator/Pulser" kit. I have an older (4-5 years old) BMW R65 battery that won't take or hold a full charge anymore so I am going to test these things and report back.
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Mike, OK, I got the EDTA and the "High-Power Desulfator Kit" in the mail last Saturday. Did you replace the acid in your battery after treating and recharging? Also, I assume that this packet is enough of the stuff for a full-size battery, did you use all of it in the motorcycle battery or just a proportionate amount?
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I used a proportion of the "normal" battery amount. I haven't changed the acid after treatment and it is still going strong and starting after long ( 1 - 2 weeks) rests. I would be interested to know how the kit performs.I read the reports and it seemed quite an involved set of instructions. I found that hot water dribbled onto the powder whilst stirring with a plastic spoon was the best way to form a solution without diluting it too much. I then used a measuring syringe to split the solution to the six cells.
I used to be in heavy goods transport and we have disposed of lots of batteries "before their sell by date". Our recovery truck very rarely ran (good fleet servicing!) but when we did need it we would often have to jump start it due to battery drain. Eventually i used to put notes in my diary to swap the batteries between the recovery truck and a more regularly used tractor unit.
Hope it works for you
Mike
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I just got am e-mail back from Richard (from Courtiestown Marine Limited) and he indicated he would use a proportional amount as well. I figure I'll weigh out 1/3 of the packet and try that. This will be going into the 20 AH BMW battery for the R65.
I assembled the desulphator kit this morning and currently have it hooked up to this battery. The documentation indicated it would take 10-14 days for it to work it's magic!! I'm going to load test it after about a week and if no significant improvement I'll add the EDTA.
The kit itself went together in about an hour and the components are of excellent quality. I was somewhat impressed to find such a high quality circuit board in a kit such as this. The substrate looks to be the fiberglass type (like computer boards are made from) instead of the el-cheapo crap most consumer grade electronics are made from. It is also a double sided board with plated thru-holes so everything solders nicely. The only complaint I would have is the documentation. I don't know if I would have been able to build the board if I wouldn't have been an electronic tech in a past life...
I'll let everybody know what my results are - good or bad...
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This thread inspired me to invest in a good trickle charger and a desulphator kit from Courtiestown to use on an old BMW 20AH battery that has been standing around in my workshop for four years.
My "new" three year old battery collapsed a cell this summer and I am now driving around with a 17AH closed lead/acid battery from a cheap "starterpack". This battery really needs desulphating.
I have ordered a new battery which will recieve the best care possible with both the trickle charger and the desulphating kit. BTW the trickle charger desulphates as well, so now I expect the new battery to last forever ;)
greetings from a grey and windy north
trolle
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Any new updates about the EDTA treatments ?
Thanks
Danie
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I have not added the EDTA yet. I am trying the de-sulphator first, but the outlook is grim...
Trolle, which kit did you get? I ordered the "High-Power" kit. I still need to find a suitable box to put it in but it went together without a hitch.
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I got the "small" kit in a box ready to use. It arrived yesterday and as the old battery is dead - the trickle loader managed to raise the voltage to 11.2 and after 24 hours the voltage was down to 8.7 - I have not had the opportunity to try it out yet. Never the less I connected it to the dead battery and the box began emitting a highpitched whine, so it works.
BTW the trickle loader and the desulphator kit use different ways to desulphate: The trickle loader uses pulses of voltage, maybe 50 per sec. whereas the desulphator kit uses a very high frequency that knocks the sulphate off the plates. Must be working just like my supersonic electrical toothbrush :-)
Now I will let it work for a week and the recharge the battery to see if there is any gain.
greetings from a rainy and grey north
trolle
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I do appologize if my question sounds a bit stupid, but I would like to know the following:
Is the desulphator kit ( the high frequincy loader) really needed - in other words, could EDTA not be
used without the high frequincy loader ?
Regards
Danie
PS. I am also interested in trying to get hold of this stuff .
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The dude from Courtiestown Marine Limited had this to say:
"Always go with the desulphator first. The EDTA just dissolves the
sulphate and it doesn't go back into the electrolyte so the electrolyte is
permanently weakened. It simple clears more of the plate to allow the now
diluted electrolyte to get back at the plate again.
"You will see an improved battery performance but not as great as
that gained by the desulphator (assuming the battery responds to the
desulphator in the first place which rather depends on the state of the
battery to start with)."
This was part of a discussion I had with him AFTER I bought both so I don't think from a sales standpoint he had anything to gain by not offering me an honest opinion. Their website hints that the desulphator might need two weeks to do it's magic so the jury is still out...
So, Danie, you might want to go to the referenced web page and poke around as he has a lot of links and some discussion about these things...
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Thanks for your reply.
I suppose it might make sence to use the kit on all batteries while still in good condition - rather trying to squeeze extra life from a dead battery ?
It looks like if I will have to import a kit anyway. I already started to find the stuff locally - even visited a pharmacy to try and find EDTA. According to the chemist EDTA is not available in SA . He also told me EDTA is definately not the same as Epsom salt.
I will have a look at the reference page and links.
Regards
Danie
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Danie
The epsom salts is a whole other way of revitalizing a battery.
I have used the the salts & surging processes successfully, never used any other.
Epsom salts is cheap and available every where.
Troy
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Would this be the optimal replacement battery for our bikes?
http://www.gotbatteries.com/items.asp?params=batteries/SLA/1/Panasonic/LC-X1220P/LC-X1220P/SL105/34L105S6
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That seems to be a pretty popular battery as is the Odyssey PC680. I also have experimented with a battery from Gruber Power in the Junkyard LS:
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/58-ytx20-bs.asp
So far it has worked great and they are fairly inexpensive.
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After being on a 2 amp charge and the desulphator for a week the battery is still not in a condition to start a bike. Perhaps a 5+ year old BMW Mareg battery that sat un-sharged for a couple of years was an extreme test. After this treatment the specific gravity of only 2 cells were acceptable, 2 abysmally low, and two in the fair range. Readings were taken with an American Optical refractometer so I am fairly certain of the values.
This morning I added a little EDTA solution to the 4 weakest cells and threw it back on the charger, we'll see how it goes and if there is some improvement I'll add a little more EDTA. I did find some acid out in the shed left over from a YUASA battery from years ago so maybe I'll drain the two weakest cells and put in fresh acid after the EDTA has had a chance to clean off the plates.
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I do appologize if my question sounds a bit stupid, but I would like to know the following:
Is the desulphator kit ( the high frequincy loader) really needed - in other words, could EDTA not be
used without the high frequincy loader ?
Regards
Danie
PS. I am also interested in trying to get hold of this stuff .
Reply from Mike
My battery would be almost dead after a week of standing. After using EDTA it will stand for a couple of weeks and still start the bike. I had just one cell which lost power when standing which I identified by checking the voltage between individual cells rather than the overall voltage. I may just have been lucky but a couple of £'s worth of EDTA was cheaper than a new battery of £50 plus.
Mike
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Thanks Troy. I decided to try Epson salt, because it is also freely available locally.
Unfortunately I did not have any luck so far. I tried to rescue three batteries, and after I have added Epson salt yesterday, I drained the batteries today, and refilled all with new battery acid today.
The voltage seem to be slightly more on two of the batteries, while the voltage on the third battery is much better - however, none of the three batteries seem to hold current - after a while the voltage start dropping again.
I must admit -the first two batteries were lying around for a couple of years, and I did not expect a miricle.....
Regards
Danie
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Several hours after adding the EDTA my charge current had increased from about 1 amp to 5 amps! I unhooked everything to let the battery cool down but it almost seems that an internal short has developed in the battery...
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I have decided to give up on this battery, it was most likely too far gone to save.
I hooked the charger back up and it pegged at 8 amps, I smacked the battery and it dropped to 2 amp draw and slowly started increasing! I drained the battery and a lot of dark grey/brown sludge came out with the electrolyte so I flushed the cells with water for a while until the water that was poured out was clear and used my remaining supply of acid to refill the cells.
I hooked up the charger and the ammeter pegged so smacked battery again and current draw dropped to a jittery 2-3 amps. I looked int each cell and 4 were bubbling and 2 were not and a "buzzing" sound would emit from one cell when the current spiked up and go away when I whacked it... Looking into that cell with a good strong light revealed the tops of the plates were kind of crumbly looking so I suspect the plates were falling apart and shorting out the cell. Maybe the "sulphation" was the only thing holding them together and after the EDTA dissolved it they disintegrated! :o
I ordered a new AGM battery from Gruber Power Services... :P
Hopefully I will come across a weakened battery that has not been so severely abused to give the desulphator a more fair test. Prpobably expecting it to resuce a battery that is falling apart internally is a bit much to ask. [smiley=evil.gif]