The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Red_Hen on November 23, 2012, 10:33:08 AM
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Hi Gang,
I picked up an R60/5 a few days ago. She's in pretty good original shape. Wanted to thank Wirespokes & Mike V for their input on what to look for when I went to check her out.
She's got @ 80k on the clock, she's been relatively well maintained and runs very nice and strong. Speedo/Tach is messed up - fluctuates like a wind sock on a breezy day. Other than that, she needs cleaning up. Tires are new, shocks are good as is clutch & transmission. She idles well too.
She feels as quick as my R65LS. I'm not sure if this is the short or long wheelbase - can you tell my looking at the picture?
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Nice looking bike Ken. The \5's have some really nice details like the alloy indicator housings and the instruments (when you get them fixed).
Compared to the R65 how would you say it handles ? The short wheel base /5 should handle a bit quicker than the long wheelbase.
They say you can tell the long wheel base version by the obvious extra bit welded in to lengthen the swinging arm.
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Sweet looking bike, Ken. Did you get bags with it?
Here's both specs for wheelbase on the R60/5:
1385 mm / 54.52 in (from 1973: 1435 mm / 56.49 in)
Chassis ID number will confirm which one you have.
For the R65LS:
1390 mm / 54.7 in to 1980. 1400 mm / 55.11 in 1981 on.
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Nice looking bike Ken
Compared to the R65 how would you say it handles ? The short wheel base /5 should handle a bit quicker than the long wheelbase.
Hi Barry - thanks for the compliment. So the /5 is a short wheel base? I've read in the latter part of '73 BMW introduced the LWB on this model. And, thought my '82 R65LS is a short wheel base. She came with new Dunlop tires, handles well but I wasn't super aggressive as it was my first ride. Interesting comment about speed - my son took her for a spin and thought she's quicker than the R65 - is this possible? The R65 has more cc's and updated carbs.
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Another question - I want to remove the speedo from the headlight bucket - has anyone done this before? I know all the wires reside in the bucket and I'm leery of messing things up.
Any step by step instructions appreciated.
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Hey Monte - hope all is well and thanks for your compliment. Frame number is 400092.
Sweet looking bike, Ken. Did you get bags with it?
Here's both specs for wheelbase on the R60/5:
1385 mm / 54.52 in (from 1973: 1435 mm / 56.49 in)
Chassis ID number will confirm which one you have.
For the R65LS:
1390 mm / 54.7 in to 1980. 1400 mm / 55.11 in 1981 on.
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To answer Monte's question, bike did come with BMW Panniers in very good condition with keys.
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The absence of an extra weld in the swinging arm will confirm a short wheelbase model. Picture from Duane Ausherman's web site. http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/whbase/index.htm
(http://)
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Thanks, Barry.
Have another question: I'd like to know if this will fit on my bike - think it would look cool and a way better way to utilize the mirrors. The only mirrors I've seen are from Viet Name on Ebay. The mirrors on this bike are shot.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271104979634?item=271104979634&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr
Mirrors:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261124774038?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Example of one I saw on a R60/5 online:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vintage-1972-BMW-R60-5-SWB-Toaster-Cafe-Racer-styled-Roadster-/140861568071?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item20cc00f447#ht_500wt_1182
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Have another question:I'd like to know if this will fit on my bike - think it would look cool and a way better way to utilize the mirrors.
I don't see why not. The threaded mirror stems are just replacing the normal headlamp pivot bolts.
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Those mirrors look cool!
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Those mirrors look cool!
Will the mirror heads impact the fuel tank at full lock?
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Those headlight mounted mirrors look cool, all right, but I've heard they're not very useful. I think the complaint was you see more of your legs than the road behind.
As for the swingarm lengthening - my 76 R90 has added welded on spacer, so it wasn't just 73 and 74 that got it. I think it took them quite a while to run through that batch of short swingarms.
The /5s have a real problem with mirrors. There's no mirror mount on the right side and the left can be a problem. A common solution is bar end mirrors. Probably the best is finding some 74 perches because they have the newer style mirror mounts and will accept any of the newer better mirrors. But the mirror mount is only thing that differentiates 74 perches from the earlier /5. Come to think of it, the 74 perch came out sometime in 73 - wonder if yours has them?
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I came with (2) chrome mirrors not in great shape. Bar end mirrors could work if the other ones I mentioned don't provide good visibility - making a lane change into a car or truck would kinda wreck my day!
Wondering how I'd fit a bar end mirror on the throttle side w/out moving when I move the throttle. My previous bike, the F650 had stock bar ends on the handlebar but not mirrors - they were counterweights.
I've read about CRG's and Napoleons.
Monte - you've got some on your Triumph, right? If so what brand are they?
I'm after good visibility and a good alternative to stock BMW mirrors.
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Monte - you've got some on your Triumph, right?
Not really true bar end mirrors.
The aluminum anti-vibe plugs on the handlebars were removed and machined to accept these small, adjustable, clamp-on mirrors.
I still utilize the larger fairing-attached mirrors for the "big picture" but the smaller mirrors are great for lane checking; looking for close-in bandits. Don't recall the brand.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbulk-share.slickpic.com%2Falbum%2Fshare%2FBcM3jMYTh3E0LM%2F2668302%2F800%2Fp%2F2668302.jpg&hash=211be1a4482f279d089202242a162e767d8a8756) (http://www.slickpic.com/s/BcM3jMYTh3E0LM/MiscPics/photo#2668302)
Show more (http://www.slickpic.com/s/BcM3jMYTh3E0LM/MiscPics)
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Hey Ken, nice bike! We seem to be gathering quite a few of the '70's /5 and /6's. My R90/6S (Monte's idea of nomenclature) has Napolean bar ends and they work very well. I'll see if I can find a photo of same. Did you find that bike back home or in Texas when you were here? Here is one of the throttle side.
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Interesting comment about speed - my son took her for a spin and thought she's quicker than the R65 - is this possible?The R65 has more cc's and updated carbs.
On paper there's not much in it with the R60 having 46HP vs 50HP for the R65. Perhaps it feels quicker because of the way the power is developed at lower revs. You've got a milder cam in the R60 with less overlap which will increase the effective compression at low to mid revs so I would expect it to feel strong.
Don't know if you have seen this period road test.
http://www.beemergarage.com/documents/r60rt2.pdf
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Hey Ken, nice bike! We seem to be gathering quite a few of the '70's /5 and /6's. My R90/6S (Monte's idea of nomenclature) has Napolean bar ends and they work very well. I'll see if I can find a photo of same. Did you find that bike back home or in Texas when you were here? Here is one of the throttle side.
Hi Mike - nice R90! Found this back home in MN - I just don't see many older BMW's advertised in the Houston area. Mike V said the same thing - he doesn't see many Airheads for sale in Southern California.
Sure is a quieter ride with the stock pipes vs the 2 in 1 Luftmeister on the R65!
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One thing that might make the difference versus the R65 is the R60 has accelerator pumps.
Another factor is that the R60 is essentially a long rod motor, especially compared to the R65, which makes for a whole different feel to the power band.
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So, Terry . . .
What is an accelerator pump?
Could you also describe a long rod engine and the differences between the R60 & R65 motor - compression? piston size? What makes them different - I did notice right away that the R60 idles a lot smoother than the R65LS. The R60 has a type 53 carb vs a CV on the R65.
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The other thing of course is, is it still an R60? You can stretch that motor right up to 1050cc if you have the cash - new pistons/heads/bores etc. Same bottom end as a R100 in theory.
Rev. Light
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Could you also describe a long rod engine and the differences between the R60 & R65 motor - compression? piston size?What makes them different - I did notice right away that the R60 idles a lot smoother than the R65LS.The R60 has a type 53 carb vs a CV on the R65.
The R65 has a bore and stroke of 82mm x 61.5mm that makes it an over square engine (bore bigger than stroke) which usually means an engine that likes to rev.
The R60 has a bore and stroke of 73.5mm x 70.6mm which makes it only very slightly over square so together with the fact it develops maximum power and torque at lower revs than the R65 and with the milder cam thrown in it's not going to be such a revy engine as the 65 and is likely to pull better low down.
I can't comment on the long rod vs short rod because the dimensions are not readily available. If anyone has them I'd love to know.
The smoother idle will be down to the combination of substantially milder cam (no valve overlap) and a heavier flywheel.
By comparison the R65 has 20 deg of valve overlap. That is the inlet valve opens before the exhaust closes. This results in inertial benefits at high revs but at idle/low revs a little of the incoming mixture goes straight out of the exhaust which is not conducive to the smoothest idle. That being said 20 deg is still a relatively modest amount of overlap by moderrn standards.
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Thanks, Barry.
So, what is an accelerator pump, where is it, and what does it do?
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With a normal slide type carb, if you snap the throttle open it produces a big reduction in the venturi vacuum which will reduce fuel flow. The end result is no power to accelerate. Such a carb needs more gentle operation of the throttle to accelerate well.
An accelerator pump is a common way of overcoming this problem by squirting in extra fuel in proportion to the speed with which the throttle is opened.
I've never had a bing slide type carb in bits so I don't know exactly what it looks like other than it's some part of the needle jet assembly. I swear I've seen a diagram somewhere recently and if I can think where and find it I'll post it up.
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My itty bitty 50cc SunL pit scooter has a diaphragm-operated slide and an accelerator pump. Little carb has a throat that is less than 0.375" in diameter. 80+ mpg but you need to keep the throttle WFO all the time. ;D
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I had a look at a diagram of the Bing slide type carb and the accelerator pump is part of the main jet/needle jet assembly. As far as I can tell when the throttle is closed it compresses a small coil spring and piston which sits in a cylinder between the main jet and the needle jet. Opening the throttle raises the slide and needle relieving this spring tension which acts on the piston to squirt extra fuel up through the needle jet.
In the diagram linked below the accelerator pump components are items 36 to 40 and they fit inside the cylinder item 35.
http://www.bingcarburetor.com/pdf/T53x.pdf
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You guys are amazing bordering on mad scientist.
Me, I'm the nutty professor.
Btw, Barry - I know England is a big province/country - the flooding looks horrible - are you keeping your bikes dry?
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Btw, Barry - I know England is a big province/country - the flooding looks horrible - are you keeping your bikes dry?
No major floods or property damage in my locality Ken.
Although we did set off for lunch at a country pub last Sunday and came across a car on a narrow lane stranded in 2 foot of water. Undeterred we turned around and found another route. Where there's a will there's a way !
As for keeping the bike dry. Anyone daft enough (me) to still be riding to work at this time of year can't expect to keep totally dry. Once the bike gets dirty I start to think what the hell. It really is going to need a wash this weekend.
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Barry is right - there's a spring loaded pump at the bottom of the main jet that gets compressed when the slide is closed. When the slide is opened, it pumps a shot of fuel into the carb.
Another little difference between the two is the /5 four speed transmission. Not sure how much of a difference that makes, but the ratios are different.
What's the final drive ratio? I know some of them came with a 32/11 - pretty tall for a low displacement machine.
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Before fuel injection took all the fun out of tweaking our 4bbl-carburetor V8 hot rods, we were constantly changing jetting and accelerator pump pushrod lengths. Always looking to trim another tenth of a second off the quarter mile times.
I believe the simplicity of the BMW Airhead motorcycles is what keeps me from owning any of today's latest electronic this n' that FI motorcycles.
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What's the final drive ratio? I know some of them came with a 32/11 - pretty tall for a low displacement machine.
Look on the swing arm for the stamped drive ratio. Some of the tall ratios like 32/11 were special order. If I recall 32/10 was fairly stock. the 32/9 were for sidecars.
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As far as ratio's were concerned I had heard, years ago when I used to frequent the Boxerworks forum, that the 4th gear in a 4 speed transmission was not that much different from 5th in a 5 speed transmission.
And it was the oppinion of some that the 5 speed transmission was an unnecessary bow to pressure for having the then fashionable '5 speed'...I.e. it was not really required, but since everybody else had one.....etc. Not only that but the 4 speed was built from the outset with the kickstart in mind. Whereas the 5 speed, the kickstart was an afterthought that was a good way of 'introducing iron filings to your trans fluid'. Also the 5 speed kick start did not have the throw to really do the job of turning the engine over efficiently.
This is of course conjecture/hearsay on my part as I have never owned a 4 speed or a 5 speed with a kicker.
I have also heard that 4 speed kicker gearboxes are sought after, as there is the option of dropping the electric boot and all the weight that the bosch starter brings with it whilst still having the option of a reliable starter for the 'special' builder.
I feel that an R60 is a good buy, if you are looking for a bike with the period drum brake font end and spoked wheels, when compared to an R75/5. You can still upgun it if you want and you will still save a sack of cash left over when comparing it to the price you will have to pay for a standard R75/5. If you are not that hung up with the originality aspects.
Rev. Light
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Both 4 and 5 speed boxes have the same overall gear reduction of 1:1.5 in top gear so comparisons with different final drive ratios are valid and the 4 speed bikes are not disadvantaged.
According to the period road test an R60/5 had a 3.36 final drive to give 14.9 mph/1000rpm in top. That'slightly taller than a typical R65 with a 3.44 final drive and what you would expect as the R60/5 makes it's maximum power at lower revs.