The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Air4Life on September 22, 2012, 05:34:30 PM
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All things being equal, one open face DOT helmet vs. a trillion times more costly open face DOT helmet is a) as safe b) safer c) not as attractive d) I have no idea e) please go away
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Prefer full face.
Keeping one's lower jaw intact - priceless
;)
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DOT rating approval should be considered the BARE MINIMUM - check the models for SNELL or other more stringent approvals - that may tell you something.
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Living right on the border of a state with helmet laws and a state without (GA/FL) I can honestly say its the one you wear that makes a difference. Ever day going to work I see people on the interstate leaving GA, where I live, cross the border, pull over on the shoulder and take off their helmet and tie it to their bike. Darwin's theory in practice.
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I appreciate and respect all of your respect for preserving the noggin.
Lets rephrase the question. SNELL vs. SNELL does 150 dollars more make them safer, or is it all aesthetics, features, and comfort? How does one compare?
thanks, I'll take my question off line now.
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I've met more riders who say "before I bought a <expensive helmet> I could never understand why you'd pay so much more. But now that I've been riding with me <expensive helmet> I can understand, it just fits better, feels more comfortable and is quieter"
I've heard this from multiple people, not the same brand either...
...And all their arguments are subjective.
I'll stick with the <latest snell rated cheap helmet> and never know what I'm missing :)
-John
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I find that I generally have to try on helmets to determine what will be more comfortable, fit better, etc. Different manufacturers used to use different "models" for head shape, and some helmet brands/models would fit certain head types better than others. For example, some (especially European vendors, it seemed) tended to design mostly for the more "round"/spherical head shape (As looking straight down from above), while quite a few north american heads are more "oval" from this perspective. I found out after some trial and error that I had a "Shoei head", and tended to stick to Shoei helmets ever since as they would fit comfortably, and snugly, as they should. Other brands would create hotspots on my forehead or would be too loose on the sides if I got one large enough to not squeeze my forehead. Of course, if you are talking open face helmets then that makes fitment easier as there are less constraints. I always wear a full face helmet.
Now, several manufacturers have admitted that people's heads do come in different basic shapes, and some are offering models in different conformations to accomodate the round.vs. oval .vs. long head shapes, and also women-specific models too.
After you have found the brand/model type that works well for you, then I'd say ordering off the internet to save some $$ is fine - but if you do it without knowing how the helmet will fit on your head, you might end up with a very ill-fitting helmet that you'll have to try to return.
If (2) different helmets have the same certification ratings, then they had to pass the same levels of testing. Some may have passed by a wider margin, but that doesn't matter - it is only whether or not it met the minimum requirements of the test. Several of SNELL requirements involve multiple hits to the same spot of the helmet. Some people say this is overkill, but I personally think it is a valid requirement. Generally, if you do any track racing you will have to use a SNELL helmet according to the regulations of the track.
Hope this helps.
Mike
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Very nice guys. Thanks.
I guess I got lucky with my HJC FF that I bought over the internet. To bad its time to say goodbye.
Its not about saving money from internet shopping, it's that I dislike going to public places that much. If I find one at a store I like, I'll buy. My phobia makes the experience so difficult.
I have to find a good store nearby. Cyclegear is not to far. I'll see what they've got.
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One of the things I want its to be able to ride without the shield on. Now that I've put my massive windshield back on for the winter, there are speeds and wind conditions that create a buffeting that slams my visor down.
Between the windshield and my impact prescription glasses I should be offered sufficient protection.
I guess I can remove the shield. But I kind of forgot if I really like it when it gets down to 40 or so for the added insulation. I guess I'll find out before you know it.
8-) cool 8-) 8-) very cool 8-) 8-) 8-) freezing
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I once heard that if you head for the ground, a reflex may make you turn your face away. But that didn't stop me going face-first into the road when coming off a pedal cycle. My own stupid fault I was taking a tow from a motorcycle rider and he literally pulled me over the handlebar. However I was only about 15 at the time so maybe my reflexes were not developed! I still have three fake front teeth but the rest of the damage cleared up ok. I suppose it would have been more of a problem for a teenage girl.
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I had gone over my handlebars of my road bicycle when I was 16. I remember being catapulted into a horizontal flying configuration with my hands stretched out. I am not exactly sure how long I was unconscious but I do remember the emergency folks slapping my face and questioning me for coherency.
It was a thrill for about 2 seconds of free flying consciousness, then I missed the rest.
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Here is my short take on helmet and ratings.
Snell = Snell. Price is not a factor in term of the rating. It may be a factor in terms of other aspects, such as the degree to which the helmet may roll off in an accident.
Personally, I prefer the EU standard. DOT is too low. Snell is geared towards hard impacts and the shell remaining intact as a result of the impact. The problem with Snell it that the ridgidity of the outer shell tends to transmit the impact energy through to the rider's head, increasing the potential for brain injury (concussion or worse). The EU standard does not required such high impenetrabilty and may require the transmission of less energy through the helmet to the head. This may be accomplished by the shell absorbing and undergoing micro fracturing to dissipate the energy, or by better absorption by the inner shell. Finding a helmet that is EU rated but not Snell rated is not easy, but they are out there if you look and research carefully.
As for the "wind in the face" feeling -- I ride with a full face helmet. But when it is hot, or I otherwise want the airflow, I will just pop out the faceshield, and go with a pair of glasses.
Since you wear prescription glasses, you might want to give some thought to a good flip-face (a/k/a modular) helmet.
I highly recommend tryng on any helmet before you buy. They all fit differently. You don't want it too loose, or too tight, or having any "hot spots." Also, you want to make sure it cannot roll off your head in an impact. You cannot find this out by ordering on line - every person is different so you cannot go by other people's evaluations. Go to a dealer, try them on. If they cannot or won't match on-line pricing, politely thank them and order the exact same helmet on-line.
Here is a link to a great article on helmets, and helmet ratings:
http://www.westcoastweasels.com/archives/PDF/Blowing_the_Lid_Off.pdf
k_enn
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I have three strong memories of that crash. Getting on my elbows and watching blood and teeth dropping on the road. Seeing (in a mirror) a bit of exposed cheekbone and noticing that in-service bone is bright white, not the brown we usually think of with bones. And getting stitches, the approaching big curved needle in the doctor's hand. It was a long time ago and they didn't use a local anaesthetic then!
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Thanks K_enn. I am somewhat familiar with the EU standards existence, as the online scooter crowd I would check in on was very much proponents of ATGATT and the highest possible safety standards available. I will do some more checking. For now my old HJC is going to be defending me.
Geesh, that kind of pain and disfigurement and you remain on two wheels. Some might argue against your sanity, full face protection or otherwise. I obviously wouldn't question it on those ground alone, of course.
My previous kid tale on that bicycle was actually borne of pure stupidity with many lessons intertwined.
I had bent the drop bar <nomenclature?> (the curved part) somehow. This was the left side (front brake). Well, I thought my dads propane torch would easily repair that. I've seen him bend metal before, why wouldn't it work on this. Ha Ha. After I created a fracture it soon became a hand accessory of sorts. You see, the hand brake and the operating cable kept it functional. I kept the accessory and thought it was soooo cool to ride around at a leisurely pace in the upright position with the accessory in my hand to very carefully reduce speed.
When I wanted to go high speed (probably 15 mph) I would rest the curved part over the top tube. It rested there without problem while I would use the remaining handle bar to hang on in a more conventional riding manner.
I saw the bump in the roadway and watched the accessory bounce up a over the handlebar. With my eye I could follow its trajectory straight for the front spokes.
I was pretty lucky in comparison to you, but then again I didn't have any motorcycle buddies to tow me. If I did, I would have also found some way to screw up a perfectly normal bicycle. :)
It is possible to do dumb headed things and survive, but far safer to learn from others. Yes, less interesting, but safer.
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I've crashed more often (on the road) in an open face than full face....maybe even more times without a helmet than full face. I don't think I've ever had a helmet hit the road...at least I've never seen a mark on any of my helmets. Guess I'm just lucky....or did I make my own luck?
I wear a full face just for the versatility...I prefer an adventure helmet with a peak, but have a KBC now. In summer I often wear an MX helmet - nice and cool with good visibility...ok at 100kph, even 120kph with my feet on the pillion pegs.
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Riding a pedal cycle scares me much more than riding a motorcycle. I'm much more likely to get rammed from behind. Or just mown down by some car driver with bad eyesight.
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Riding a pedal cycle scares me much more than riding a motorcycle. I'm much more likely to get rammed from behind. Or just mown down by some car driver with bad eyesight.
I agree completely. At least with an engine powered cycle you can get out in a lane and hold your own place with traffic. With a pedal cycle around here you are on the edge of the road with tons of road trash you need to avoid and cars wizzing past you at 50 mph. Not a good situation.
Also, my worst crash was back in my college days when I was riding a pedal cycle. No helmet back in those days (yes, I am old), I was knocked out for a while, the bike was bent like a pretzel, and I still have a significant scar from that accident. The lady in the cage never saw me and turned right in front of me.
I'll take the higher visibility of an engine powered cycle, a helmet, and riding gear anytime over sneakers, shorts and a T-shirt on a pedal cycle.
k_enn
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I have both a full face helmet and an open face. Although I would absolutely not allow a passenger to wear one I much prefer to ride with the open face because it's quieter and I just feel less isolated. When I ride with the open face it scares me into riding very carefully and I've noticed that as a general theme. The more protective and Hi Vis gear gear I put on the less careful I am. It worries me more that the SUV drivers with ABS and a trillion air bags have the same feeling.
With or without an open face helmet I agree Pedal cycles are at a much higher risk than me on the daily commute. I had an uncle run over and killed by a truck on his pedal cycle.
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You guys hit the nail on the head. I feel safer on the motorcycle than the bicycle -most of the time.
Barry: your experiences I bet are pretty universal. I have been fighting that sensation as of late. Just because I'm geared up doesn't give me license to be reckless. But I somehow feel ridiculously safer. Okay, up to a point, but...
Ditto on the automobiles. The brilliant engineers made the damn things so safe that the drivers walk away from all but the most serious. There's no sense of responsibility... Even one of the insurance companies (State Farm I think) had made an advertisement to the effect that they won't hold accidents against you...
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Air4Life, Barry and k_enn, you are totally right. I have to admit that despite smashing my face (it's fixed long ago) I usually use an open face helmet. A couple of full face left me feeling claustrophic and bothered by inability to do quick side glance before overtaking. And need to bend head down t read the speedo!
Really good points of over-reliance on technology. Does US tv have the documentary on the crash of Air France 447 in the Atlantic? It's terrifying, worth watching. Most instruments, central-control by computer, failed intermittently. One pilot thought they were flying too fast and wanted to deploy flaps. Another thought flying too slow! The stall alarm screamed about 70 times (you can hear it on the black box recording) but all three pilots ignored it, did not even mention it. Ground proximity alarm also howled, no effect on the crew. I'm pretty sure if they had been provided with the old flight panel of six independent instruments, it would never have happened. The aircraft was nose-up with airspeed about 70 kt throughout the fall and nobody realised. Nearly 300 dead.
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And just to add something - a few years ago I was guest on the bridge of a Channel ferry from France. I watched the radar screen as we approached Dover port, it was wonderful, like watching a large-scale map come to life in front of my eyes. But the third officer confirmed, it's hard to resist staring at it, when you should look out the window too! And so ships crash into rowboats or semi-sunk junk.
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I can't remember the name of the American bloke who studied 1000s of motorbike crashes from the 1970s onwards (I think). He found that wearing a helmet so vastly improved your chances of surviving an accident, as compared to not wearing a helmet, that there was absolutely no question as to their effectiveness. But he found that once you were wearing a helmet it's cost made no discernible difference.
For what it's worth: he also found that the single most useful thing that you can do in traffic to help avoid accidents is to 'cover your front brake', i.e. keep your fingers on the brake lever.
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I believe you are referring to the Hurt Report. Here is a link to a breif discussion of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report
If you have the time and interest, here is the full 435 page report:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/MOTORCYCLE_ACCIDENT_CAUSE_FACTORS_AND_IDENTIFICATION_OF_COUNTERMEASURES_VOLUME_I-_TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf
The report itself is interesting.
k_enn