The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: vontresc on March 26, 2008, 09:28:12 AM
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Well It's time for the annual heavy maintenance on the ol beemer. My goal for the year is to finally fix that annoying oil leak on my 81 R65. Before I start tearing things apart, I'd like to get some opinions on where the cause may lie.
Ok so here are the symptoms.
When I put the bike on the sidestand I notice a little puddle of oil on the left side below the bike. It looks like the oil is coming from the "shelf" below the tranny, and running down by the oil fill plug. I am pretty sure it isn't the oil fill plug. this leads me to believe that it may be the rear main seal, or the oil pump o-ring. The worst part of this is that I put in a new friction plate last year, and didn't really look at those places :-(.
Are there any other sources I should look at while I am doing major exploratory surgery?????
thanks
Pete
P.S. Yes I know that I will need to block the cam if I remove the flywheel completely
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Your descripton of the area of the leak would lead me to believe that it either is the rear main seal or the oil pump cover seal.
By chance, did you recently change your oil to a full synthetic ?
I did this ( Mobil 1 motorcycle oil), and about 3-4 months later the rear seal started leaking, went back to Spectro Golden oil and it stopped.
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I agree with Bob but recently I had a leak giving the same "symptoms". I suspected the main seal as well but found out, that the vent hose from the crankcase ventilation had cracked leading the oil from the top of the engine down the along the crack between the engine and the transmission in such a way that it looked as if it came from the shelf under the transmission. Much easier to repair or change than the main seal!
greetings from a sunny but cold north with good riding conditions
trolle
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Hmm good through Trolle. I'll have to check that first to see if that's the problem. I'll also have to look at the old clutch disk again. I don't seem to recall there being any oil on it, and I remember hearing that a main seal would cause there to be oil on the clutch.
Hmm sounds like Denmark has better WX than Wisconsin. We broke 100" of snow this year, with 2-3" forecast for tomorrow :-(
Pete
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If by chance you do need a crankcase breather hose, post here first, as it's a little difficult to find in the parts catalog.
It was 88 F. here in the northern Sonoran desert of Arizona yesterday, currently about 70 F. at 9:30 am.
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Actually I will take you up on your offer for info on the breather hose. It may be the source of my frustration. The swan neck hose on top of the breather valve is cracked at the base, and there is a fair amount of oil grime on top of the case be the starter. Well at least I got the swingarm, and driveshaft off tonight. Only took me 90 minutes.
Pete
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The part number is : 11151335735, just to confirm what the hose looks like, after it comes off of the breather valve housing, it makes a 180 degree turn, then a 90 turn, has a short straight run, then flares out to a larger diameter with two ridges molded into it, to snap into the airbox.
Price is around $30 plus tax and shipping.
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Is it MOTOR oil or GEAR oil?
Used gear/transmission oil smells awful, imnsho. Blarg! :P
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Ok folks I need some advice here, I got the transmission out, and the flywheel removed. So now I am looking at the crank, and all the pictures in the Clymers manual show what looks like some sort of soft seal. Instead I see a metal ring, and What I am assuming is a cap over the crankshaft (see pic attached). The manual now tells me to "remove old seal". I'd like to try, but I don't see one. I assume I still need to remove some more parts, but I didn't want to munge anything up so I stopped for the night.
Any suggestions would really be appreciated.
Thanks
Pete
P.S. sorry for the poor quality of the pic. All I had was my cell phone
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What model year is your R65 ? I believe that BMW has a different type/style seal for the pre- 85 models that had a thin, tapered edge for sealing.
From 85-on, they used a soft/ pliable material called PTFE that was more elastic, sorta like the fork slider seals. It is important, before you go further,
that you have the proper type of seal in hand. Maybe the newer, post '85 seals will actually work on all bikes, I do not know myself but I bet someone here does.
They (BMW) also wants you to be sure to check the depth of the existing seal before removing it, so that you can put the new seal in to the same depth.
you don't want the new seal to rub against the flywheel (pre-81 models) or the flywheel mounting ring (81 and after)
P.S. If you have the "old" thick black Clymer manual, look in Chapter 5, Page 203, illustration #10 - does this look familiar ?
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Pete, please tell me that you DID block the crankshaft to prevent it moving forward...
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I haven't been where you are yet but a check of the parts fiche indicates that you are looking at the Guide Ring [11 22 1 337 248] when removed [how?] will reveal the gasket ring [11 22 1 337 099] and the shaft seal [11 11 1 338 342] living behind it. The diagrams on reaoem are pretty clear and I'm sure someone with actual practice will chime in.
rich
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YES I blocked the Crank, and i have been VERY careful in not applying a lot of forward pressure on the crank.
This is a 12/81 (so almost '82) model, and I looked at the fiche, and it shows a guide ring. I just don't know how to remove the thing. Anyway I am heading to the local BMW dealer for parts tomorrow, and maybe I can get some info there.
Pete
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Changing the rear main seal: see http:// http://picasaweb.google.dk/petertrolle/BmwR6584Restoring/photo#5183125971925896002 which is a drawing I made after having installed the seal the wrong way twice (yes I know that this sounds stupid!)
The new seals have a soft lip as you can see from the drawing, this lip must rest on the crankshaft cup as shown in the drawing or else the engine will blow oil out faster than you can imagine!
To remove the seal use a screwdriver and a plier and be very careful not to touch the engine casing at any point - even small scratches at the wrong place will allow oil to get past the seal. You cannot remove the seal without destroying it!
Let the new seal soak in engine oil for a couple of hours before you install it.
Remove the crankshaft cup (see drawing) before installing the seal to ensure that the lip of the seal points inwards.
IMPORTANT Place an empty paintcan between the seal and the wooden board you apply your hammer on when you tap the seal into place, the circumference of a 1 litre or 1/4 gallon can matches the seal. The reason for this is that the seal must rest evenly in the seat to be tight.
When you are at it, change the O-ring of the crank shaft cup as well.
Have a nice time.
greetings from a grey and windy north waiting for spring. Deplorable driving conditions
trolle
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you have some very good photos on your website, trolle !
I knew that I had seen some good pictures of the rear main seal installation, and finally found some, with instructions/advice, on
snowbum's website. I'd recommend that people go here to read the advice and observe the photos to help with the installation
and removal of the guide ring. I know that some people have installed rear main seals without use of one of the BMW special tools, or
one of Ed Korn's special tools - this might be a case where having such a specialized tool may be worth it though, to increase one's
chances of success the first time around. I haven't had to replace my seal yet, but I've been watching it and keeping my fingers crossed !
Here is the link to snowbum's article and pictures. It sounds like the guide ring removal (he explains the removal process in words only, no
photos of that part unfortunately) process isn't too bad, but is a bit "fussy" - be very careful not to ding up anything or the ability of the seal to work properly can be compromised.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/flywheelremovalwarning.htm
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Thanks to all of you for your advice. I did get the seal out today, but I found out that when you get frustrated it's best to step away from a problem, and come back when you feel better.
While trying to remove the stubborn old seal, I decided in my infinite wisdom that the crankshaft would make a perfect fulcrum to use to pry loose the old seal. Exceedingly BAD idea. Yes you guessed it I now get to explore the innards of a boxer. The feeling you get when you feel that crank move inward a 1/4" is just priceless. And yes I did block the crank, but I guess I just applied too much force to the crank for the bungee 2x4 contraption to take.
So trolle how long did your rebuild take you when this happened to you?
Pete
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10-12 hours including the thinking. But then it was easier than I had feared and I was rather proud of my self when I succeeded in constructing a puller that worked. See the pictures at my site http://picasaweb.google.com/petertrolle/BmwR6584Restoring/photo#5134858944905045746 to get some inspiration.
Hopefully you have not destroyed anything like I did: http://picasaweb.google.com/petertrolle/BmwR6584Restoring/photo#5134858901955372770.
Those stopdisks, and remember that there are two of them, are tricky.
greetings from a grey but warmer and wetter north
trolle
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Oh my !
Sorry to hear of your calamity, vontresc ! If I have to go in there, I am going to make sure that I use a cut off allen key in the rotor bolt
and partially screwn the front timing cover on in hopes that will be a more definitive "block". Well, look on the bright side, you are going to learn alot more about how the famous boxer engine is put together as your get your crankshaft bits all repositioned. DO take your time with this, and trolle's
pictures are helpful to give you a frame of reference. I'd recommend that you check out some more of snowbum's website as well for other
helpful info on boxer cranks, etc.
Good luck, and keep us posted ! Maybe there is a fellow airhead in your area that might be able to help you out. A key thing is to see if there are any
"tech days" scheduled in your area.
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Gosh, what a mess! I'm deleting all reference to, "bundgeeing" [sp] a board to the bike as a crank blocking method, from my how to files. Seems like bad advice in light of your plight. Have you attempted to move the crank back using hand pressure only. you might be lucky and not have to disassemble the right cylinder to get at the thrust washer.
rich
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Rob, the bungee method ought to be ok as long as you don't use the crank as a leverage point for your screwdriver while prying out the seal. By the way my seal actually was a metal ring. The new ones now use a plastic ring on the outside.
I view this as operator rror, rather than failure of the blocinkg procedure. Though the allen key methos would have probably saved me.
Peter
P.S. at least my engine will finally be clean again :-)
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I have not been on this site since Thursday of last week, I use a method to remove the rear main seal, that would have avoided this situation.
After getting the 'cup' off of the crankshaft, I drill three small holes about 120 degrees apart into the metal face of the seal, then I use a small automotive dent puller that has a small sheet metal screw on the end, thread it into the holes in the seal, and then apply a few gentle taps of the slide hammer weight to pull the seal out, a few taps at each hole are usually sufficient to remove the seal.
I have used a cut down allen wrench, and then put the front cover back on to block the crank shaft, and no problems have occured yet.
Just a question, would it be possible to re-install the thrust washer with the crankshaft 1/4 th inch forward ?
If it didn't fall into the engine case, could it be put back on the two pins that hold it normally ?
Then push the crank shaft back to where it's supposed to be.
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As far as I remember it is possible to get access to the thrust washer from the cylinder hole on either the right or the left side, so if the washer is not harmed in any way it may be possible to put it in place without pulling the main bearing. This makes the operation much easier, as you only have to remove the cylinders.
Don't do as I normally do but start with the easy way.
greetings from a warm spring day in the north
trolle
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Quick update....I've had some fun taking the bike apart, and got the jugs, and oil pan off now.....
The good news id that the thrust washer is still on the pins, the bad news is that the thrust washer is still on the pins ;D
I now need to clean the crap out of the cylinder pistons, and check the timing chain. With any luck I ought to be back on the road in a week.
Pete
P.S. the front rubber engine mount spacers are shot. What is the part number for these things?
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P.S. the front rubber engine mount spacers are shot. What is the part number for these things?
sounds like you have the Luftmeiser vibration fix. Factory spacers were metal. Interesting that I can't find any kind of part #'s for 'em. Ill keep lookin'
rich
http://www.nebcom.com/noemi/moto/r65faq.html#ENGINE_VIBRATION
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The BMW part number for the OEM spacers is : 46712311726.
Price is about $3US each.
I had to do some searching to find the number.
The Luftmeister rubber isolaters, can still be found on eBay, the last set I saw went for over $100US.
I got mine in 1981 for $25US.
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I just wanted to post a quick update to my saga.....
Well there is good news and bad news.
The good news is that I managed to get everything back together, AND I managed to never drop the thrust washer off the pins, so I didn't have to pull the crank. the bad news is that I managed to snap off part of the shift lever :'(
All in all pulling the engine, and removing the heads etc was remarkably easy. I even managed to learn a few things :-). Also I have to thank our local airmarshal Jeff Trapp who in addition to being a very helpful good guy, also runs a side business making specialty tools http://www.northwoodsairheads.com
Here is a gallery of images from the rebuild.
http://picasaweb.google.com/vontresc/BMWOverhaul
Pete
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Congrats on the rebuild.
I might make one or two small observations that I saw from the photo's you posted.
It might be best to leave the oil pump cover on till all else around it is finished working on. It's real easy to dislodge some muck and it ends up in the internals. I tend to leave it till the very last thing I do in there, and make sure all is scrupulously clean around it.
When pistons are off the rods, protect the rods with rag as they can fall onto the sharp edge of the barrel spigot opening. This can start a crack in the rod, or dent the opening, if severe enough.
Just something to remember the next time!!
Bill.....................;-)
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Good pictorial documentation! You may be able to get the end welded back on your shifter for fairly cheap.
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It broke apart on a prior weld. I Just bit the bullet, and ordered a new one from A&S Cycles (they had one in stock)
Pete