The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: olderguy on March 22, 2008, 11:21:09 AM
-
Hope someone has a few ideas.
1982 R65 - stock - 40,000
new Battery - new coil - new ing module - new plugs, wires
tuned, new fluids - you get the point
I inherited this bike from my Father in Law a couple of years ago when he passed away
I did a cosmetic restoration and all the basic things to keep it on the road.
The bike sits in a heated garage along side 2 other bikes
It will start, idle and runs great ----until I stop it for gas, a beer, to talk to someone, etc
It will not re-start until it has sat for a couple hours. Cranks over fine - no spark at the plugs
re-read the first few lines - I've replaced everything I can think might be the culprit
any thoughts from someone smarter than me!!!
I've had a few dozen bikes - 4 BMW's included
But I'm a Beer Salesman - not a Tech - so don't expect alot of smarts on this end of the line!
thanks
-olderguy
-
What happens when u push the start button?
Does anything happen?
Does the starter engage, do you hear anything.
Give us more details, please.
Troy
-
It could possibly be either the Hall-effect sensor in your ignition "bean-can" or the ignition amplifier. Since it will go ahead and start fine after cooling down then I would remove the ignition amplifier, clean mounting surface, apply fresh heatsink compound, and reinstall. The heatsink compound gives out after a few years and the heat geberated by the amplifier does not transfer as well as it should and it could be getting too hot. I know there are a pic on the board (somewhere) from underneath the gas tank showing this item but if you can't find it maybe somebody could re-post or point you to it.
-
Troy, the post states it cranks over fine but no spark at plugs.
-
you said that you changed the "ing module" I'm guessing here that you are referring to the ignition module or amplifier as Justin put it. You do need to apply heat sink compound [grease] to the back of that module. They have been known to fail intermittently when hot [no spark] then werk when cooled down. Radio Shack has what you need. Catalog #: 276-1372 if this is indeed the cause.
rich
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F90141401%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=dff9dcfc39e9643fce4bffdb31b315dc7351ab56)
-
Ok, to clarify
After it gets "too" warm and won't restart - the starter spins fine, but if you pull a plug there is no spark at the plug
note - the New ign control unit was replaced is NOT mounted as in the pic above
it is under the main frame rail facing the top of the engine NOT on the side facing the right side of the bike as it is in the pic - could this be a problem?
Not really sure what you mean about applying grease to the mod? It's sealed and has no moving parts - where do I put heatsink grease - how much - and how?
sorry - like I warned you - I am not a mechanic
-
To narrow it down to the igniton comtrol unit, or amplifier.
If you can ride it and get it fail at home, a quick way to see if the unit is failing due to heat problems, when you are at Radio Shack, or other electronics store, see if you can find a spray product that can 'freeze' or cool down the unit, to see if cooling it will solve the problem.
If this doesn't help, try the same thing to the ignition canister, commonly refered to as the 'bean can', located under the front engine cover.
There is a component in there, a Hall Effect sensor, and it can fail the same way due to heat, and age.
-
Thanks
looks like a trip to Radio Shack is in order
I'll get the heat sink grease and freeze spray and see what happens
Do you guys think having it mounted below the frame rail facing the engine is screwing
it up? That's how the local dealer did it!
The Ign Amp is less than 18 months/ 500 miles old - coils are the same age
Keep our fingers crossed
this has become the most expensive "free" motorcycle I have ever heard of
I have roughly $2000 in routine maint. / repairs / cosmetics and have only riden it about 2000 miles since Dad passed away and left it to me
-olderguy
-
It can face the engine in some installs I've seen. As long as it's on an L shaped bracket with the back of the module firmly attached (with heat sink compound applied) it will be ok. The bracket may also have fins to aid in cooling, at least on the L shaped bracket ones I've seen. Not all are mounted like Rich's photo, I've even seen some of them mounted right near the frame head where the older under tank master cylinder used to be.
Don't get too hung up on mounting location, as long as it has a good contact with the mounting plate which acts as a heat sink. It could be just a lack of heat sink compound and stopping the hot engine allows heat to rise from the engine and over heat the module.
BTW, the compound goes between the module and it's mounting plate, just undo the two securing screws and smear a THIN layer, too thick is just as bad as not enough, you only want it to fill microscopic pores in the face so that it has 100% thermal contact with the mount.
Bill....................;-)
-
I'm wondering if maybe an aftermarket ignition amplifier (like a Dyna or Accel) was installed as the only other orientation I have seen is on R100s and it mounts to the front brakeline splitter assembly. Olderguy, could you post a pic? This is what MY '82 LS looks like under the tank, you can see the ICU sandwiched between the Dyna coils and the voltage regulator:
-
Went out and un-tie-wrapped the Ign Amp form it's position under the top frame piece (facingdown) and took a few pics - try to post them
the Module(black) is riveted to the alum piece and the only place I could see to mount it is shown in one of the pictures. The mounting holes do not line up however, so only 1 screw would be hold this on
If I'm reading all this correctly - you want me to put the grease on the back of the alum section that will be up against the bracket coming off the frame
Once you open photbucket you will be able to scroll forward or back to the 3 pictures
You can see me pointing at the originol location and see the bracket sticking off the frame(empty) above it
you'll see me holding the unit - and finally see where I THINK I want to mount it
sure hope this works
http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj180/bjsutter/?action=view¤t=IMG_0250.jpg
htthttp://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj180/bjsutter/?action=view¤t=IMG_0248.jpgp://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj180/bjsutter/?action=view¤t=IMG_0249.jpg
-
Yes, that is where it mounts. It is odd that the holes don't line up and the mechanic chose to "rig" it by tie-wrapping it under the frame tube! My only thought is that the ICU was not the 100% correct replacement. The grease goes between the black part (actual ICU) and the silver part (a heatsink) and it's purpose is to assist in conducting heat away from the ICU into the heatsink.
-
yeah, I know
the part number is correct according to the manual 12 14 2 325 284
but the holes on the Mod are about 1/4 inch further apart than the holes on the frame mounted bracket.
also
the ign mod is riveted to the alum backing plate and as such, no way to grease in between to two tha I could tell
I'm going to bolt it up like I had the one photo using one bolt ....that will get it about 6 more inches away from the motor and the heat and have it more exposed to airflow
I just have to try it out again and see what happens
-olderguy
-
by the way
it now looks alot like Justin B's photo above - just missing the outside bolt
my mod looks to be a little wider
I'm beginning to think that heat sinks work both ways
by that, I mean having in down above the engine facing down is WARMING the Mod not cooling it
fingers officially crossed
Olderguy
-
Weird, that must be an "official substitute". I think that same module (minus heatsink) is also used in various Volvo, BMW, and other European cars.
I have never seen one riveted to the heatsink before, it is normally bolted to the heatsink and the heatsink is bolted to the frame bracket. Even with just one bolt attaching it in the proper position it will still get a little heat conduction to the frame. I would go ahead and bolt it where it belongs and see if your problem improves. Also, it's possible that you might be able to drill another hole in the heatsink so that you can get both mounting bolts in.
Correction to above - the module is screwed to the heatsink and heatsink screwed to inner fender on my Volvo 240 - looks like same module. If you measure between the "rivets" is that distance the same as the hole spacing on the frame bracket?
Never mind, I just took a closer look at your pic of the module...
-
According to Realoem.com there are some 'pieces parts' missing
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realoem.com%2Fbmw%2Fdiagrams%2Fg%2Fb%2F2.png&hash=6bcae020bb763ac8908b93804df8a7443ad05e51)
I'm starting to wonder if you have the correct module even tho its physical appearance looks kosher.
rich
Justin, what kind of voltage regulator is that in your pic?
-
Rich, his module may be what BMW is now listing as a replacement part. It seems more "square" in shape than any others I have seen. The one I remember in our old '80 BMW 320i was the same shape as that in my pic as is the one in our current Volvo. It seems I remember a discussion concerning the new replacement coils requiring a different ICU module. Maybe this is the animal?
As far as the regulator, it is the solid-state one sold by Euro MotoElectrics. I also have one of the adjustable ones that looks identical except for the trim-pot adjuster screw on the underneath side. I had bought two of the fixed regulators and John kicked sent me one fixed and upgraded one to the adjustable type at no charge just so I could try it out! I've always had super good "vibes" dealing with him.
This look kinda familiar? 1993 Volvo 240...
-
Guys
I have gone on the A&S BMW website and have the parts listing for my Module and it is the correct number. It is square as you can see in my pics and looks very much like McRiden's picture but is not mounted in line with the upper frame rail but rather perpendicular to to it. Sticking out at a 90 degree angle.
The bike, now completely cooled off, will start and run but I have not had the time to babysit it while it warms up to see if it will restart when hot.
I'll let you know. I'm hopeful that the undersided mounting affair I discovered was the culprit but who knows?
-
Did the dealer - or you - clean off the back side of the module and the aluminum mounting block and put a fresh coat of heatsink paste (available at Radio shack or hobby electronics stores) on it ? Does the aluminum/white metal block have a good, flat surface contact with whatever that black piece of metal is that it is screwed on to ? The module has to be able to dump its heat effectively into a large metal mass to stay cool. Any air gaps cut down on the working surface area to transfer the heat.
You've probably already seen these from others, but here is a link to some photos of what the standard mounting setup looks like:
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/nhmaf/?action=view¤t=CoilReplacement01.jpg
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/nhmaf/?action=view¤t=CoilReplacement03.jpg
-
The module is permanently sealed (riveted) to the heatsink on my unit and as such I'm unable to clean or put grease there
the mount that I went with is similiar to yours - that is a small l shaped braket coming off the main frame rail at a 90 degree angle but only 1/2 wide(like yours)
Apparently BMW has changed the mounting somewhat because the center to center spacing on the new BMWQ replacement Mod is 1/4 inch wider than the braket on the main frame
there is no room to drill another hole -so I elected to mount it to the braket with 1 bolt going through the mod and into the hole closest to the frame
Olderguy
-
Here's an article on trouble shooting those ignition parts; most of the how-to is at the bottom:
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Ignition.htm
Do you know anybody else near you who can loan you a bean can to swap in for a test of that?
Now I'm glad I bought the ignition control unit from Rocky Point, as it was a direct replacement for the OEM unit.
-
well, bad news for the home team
I had a chance to go out and work in the garage on soem things so I started up the R65 and let it run
I turned it off a couple times for a minute or so and it would start back up. Great! Then I let it run a while turned it off and walked next door for about 15 minutes - bad news - won't start now.
Pulled a plug, reinserted in the wire and grounded it against the cylinder - no spark.
Back to square one.
the $150 Module is only a year old and has fewer than 500 miles on it - could it be Bad?
Very frustrating to say to least
I'm afraid to go for a ride any further than I would want to push it home.
-Olderguy
-
You said that the ignition coil is new, from your picture, it looks like the coil is black and grey in color.
Did you purchase it new from a dealer or other OEM source, or is it new to you, a used part ?
If it is a black and grey coil, they have a habit of cracking with age, also check the resistance value of the primary and secondary circuits.
Primary winding should be 1.5 ohms, and secondary around 12-13,000 or so ohms.
Did you try to cool the ignition conrtol module, to see if it was a temperature related problem?
-
Good News, no really! You can recreate the fault. Easy test: Get a can of compressed air at your computer store, typically used to blow off dust on electrical stuff / keyboards. Might be called "Dust-Off". Run the bike, make it fail, spray the module holding the can upside down. Icy cold liquid will come out and freeze the module. Try to start. Crude, but it will tell you if there is a heat related failure of the ignition module without being an electrical test wizzard.
rich
-
I haven't tried to cool the part yet - but I will
The coil was purchased (along with a new module) from BMW of Cleveland in Aurora Ohio about a year ago. Both the Coil and the Module were to have been new in the box
Both of them, installed, along with diagnostics, etc was around $500
-
There could be a few other possibilities for an ignition failure, a faulty tachometer can render the ignition inoperable, a remote possibility, but if you can remove the connector on the back of the tachometer, it would take one more thing out of the troubleshooting process.
The other more likely suspect would be the Hall Effect sensor ( a semi-conductor electronic switch that is triggered by a magnetic field) inside the ignition canister that sits behind the front cover of the engine.
May be another part to rapidly cool down if you can get the ignition to fail.
Have you checked the condition ( corrosion), security and cleanliness of any of the electrical connectors, they can cause electrical problems, but usually not temperature related, may want to try wiggling the wiring harness to see if it helps any when the ignition fails.
-
I guess that I haven't seen Hall effect sensor fail in such a flaky fashion as this, but it is a possibility.
Somewhere along the line I've got to get a used canister from somewhere and see how bad of a job it is to
replace the sensor in it - there are a couple sources of these sensors from electronics stores, and I could
repair them alot more cheaply than what some places are charging for refurbished ones, I think..
I am still suspicious of the coils and/or the current source in this case, however.
It would be very helpful to check the coil's resistance (primary and secondary) with the ignition turned off- the
values expected are as previously posted by Bob R - when the bike is not starting for you. It would also be useful to check the voltage at the primary when you are cranking the engine trying to get it to start. Are you familiar with using a multimeter and/or have access to one ?
-
There's the complete procedure in our R65 Technical FAQ section, doesn't look to be too difficult of a job, and the sensor itself is about $15.
-
Had an opportunity to try to cool the Ign Mod during failure. I started the bike and let it run for a while shut it down and of course it would not re-start. I had already partially lifted the tank for access so I sprayed Radio Shack Component Cooler on it until is was VERY cool. Still no spark. Pour a Scotch and went inside
6 hours later - went out and it fired right up
When you put the Dyna Ign system on a 1982 R65 does it effectively eliminate everything that may be causing me a problem? I gotta' tell you I'm ready to spend the $300 to fix this thing right now. I'm already in it with $2100 what's another $300 for it to run longer that 30 minutes at a time
thoughts
-Olderguy
-
I think Omega is about the only replacement system available for the electronic ignition bikes, it uses the ignition coil that's installed, and some wiring in the bike, all of the other components are from Omega.
I know a member here, Semper Gumby, installed this system on his '80 R65, may want to send him a Personal Message for feedback on his experience, but from what I can remember, he is quite pleased with the Omega system.
How long do you let the bike run before shutting it down ?
I don't know how much more time you want to put into this problem, but the ignition canister under the front cover of the engine, hasn't been addressed yet.
There's two allen head bolts that hold the front cover on, ( before you remove this cover, remove the positive lead from the battery, as there some connections in there that are 'hot', they have power all the time, so you could end up with a 'shower of sparks' if you touched the cover to one of them) then I think there are two phillips head screws holding the cover on the canister.
You could try spray freeze on the the Hall Effect sensor area to see if it is the faulty component.
I don't think cooling the outer housing will do you much good.
Other than this, the only things left in the system are wires, ignition switch, and tachometer.
Gets a bit frustrating trying to find an intermittent electrical problem, then usually it's not a complicated repair after the problem area is found.
-
And the Omega is less than three bills and Stephen is a stand-up dude...