The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: alexznam357 on September 04, 2010, 08:23:42 AM
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I've seen these before on the Web, but never a good shot of the engine until this one.
http://bringatrailer.com/2009/02/13/unrestored-40hp-driver-1960-bmw-700s/
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When I lived in Esfahan, Iran in the late '70's, the Citroen 2CV was a common vehicle, it had an air cooled flat twin engine .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV#Engines
A little more unusual use for an aircooled boxer engine, was in Maytag washing machines in the first half of the 20th century, the model 72 engine .
http://www.maytagclub.com/page-37.htm
These washing machines don't have the twin, you get the general idea .
http://www.herculesengines.com/Maytag/Default.htm
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Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.
Monte
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Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.
+1, Monte. At idle, our 2007 Outback even sounds a tiny bit similar to the bike, though the 4-cylinder configuration blurs the individual exhaust reports that are audible at idle with our boxer twins.
Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.
FWIW, the Beetles began the 1960s with 1200cc. fours, and ended with 1600, so there is a displacement similarity between this bike's engine and the Käfer's, particularly the earlier ones. The bike appears to have more power than VWs, at least until 1966, when the VW Type I went to 40 hp.
BMW was originally an aircraft engine manufacturer, as the story goes. Anyone know whether Dr. Porsche got any ideas from them when designing the VW? (I've never taken the trouble to do a side-by-side comparison of the two engines to see if there are close physical similarities (not counting the dissimilarity of the VW case being horizontal, parallel to the the cylinder jugs).)
Cheers,
JT
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Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.
Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.
Indeed they do! I have built and flown two FAA licensed, Experimental Category aircraft powered by VW aero conversions which I built up from the bare crankcases. Reliable as... well, a BMW airhead.
Monte
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In the '70's I did a lot of work on a Toyota with a front mounted aircooled flat twin,it was badged as a Toyopet.It was impossible to get parts for it,and I had to make things like the exhaust headers.We couldn't get brake parts,and had to get the wheel cylinders sleeved to a standard size.Years later I see a big story on some Toyota anniversary where this first Toyota in New Zealand had been found and restored.They would of had to remake all the patch ups I had to do back in the day just to keep this car on the road when nobody wanted to know about it.
This is a picture of the engine.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F3e%2F1961_Toyota_U_Type_engine_front.jpg%2F711px-1961_Toyota_U_Type_engine_front.jpg&hash=849d8e3ebbfe306791c546c8929b4dec81d9dc39)
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Had a '67 Porche 912 with an air-cooled boxer engine. What a great car! Wish I still had it.
I also had the fastback version of the square-back VW (can't remember the year or model #) that was an air-cooled boxer.
Now I'm on my second Subaru wagon with a boxer, first was a 2000 Legacy GT Wagon & now I'm on a '09 Outback. Put over 250K on the '00.
I guess its about time I find a BMW Airhead!
Frank W.
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I also had the fastback version of the square-back VW (can't remember the year or model #) that was an air-cooled boxer.
[Full-disclosure time: I had to run to the basement for my "VW Good Book" (John Muir's How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive, a Manual of Step by Step Procedures for the Compleat Idiot) to be certain.] Your Fastback was a Type III. Production (or at least, importation into USA) began with the 1968 model, I think, and ended in 1974.
FWIW, here are the early (pre-Rabbit/Golf) VW types and more-or-less synonymous names:
Type I: the Bug/Käfer/Sedan/Convertible. Body shell variations on the Type I pan/engine/drive train were Safari (aka the Thing) and Karmann Ghia.
Type II: the Van/Kombi/Station Wagon/Pickup/Bus/Camper/Double-Cap Pickup/Campmobile/Transporter, plus (per Muir) "certain blue words."
Type III: Fastback/Squareback/Notchback (2-door sedan with conventional roofline—never imported officially into USA, so rarely seen here)/Variant.
Type IV: "411-2" (2-dr sedan)/"411-4" (4-dr)/"4-door"/"wagon". My first spouse & I had one w/auto transmission in Germany in the mid-70s. IMO, it was heavy, underpowered, under-braked, and generally a pig to drive. The model died, unlamented, sometime in the mid-70s, I think. (We bought the 411 because my ex admitted to burning out her mother's Beetle's clutch while unsuccessfully learning to drive a 4-speed, and I wasn't about to have her learn on my BMW 2002tii. ;D ) Back in the States, I bought her mother's Bug in 1978, before she and I split. Afterward, we became single again, her parents had her ask me if I'd sell it back to them. ;) I had it restored in '94-95, and still enjoy it as a fair-weather ride when the bike isn't practical.
FWIW: Muir's book is a large (like the shop manual that it is), spiral-bound paperback, a hoot to read while learning a lot from it. Both the text and Muir's cartoon illustrations (no photos, here) range from amusing to ROTFL-capable. If anyone has an interest in vintage Bugs or simply appreciates weirdness in a technical book, I recommend buying it if you ever see a copy at a yard sale or used-book store. Near the back of the book is a timeline (by chassis number) of model changes and major mid-year parts changes. Beetles are like our R65s; they began life with identical engine and frame numbers, but engines die (like my original 1300), and sometimes (always in the case of the 1300) it's impossible to rebuild the engine because of punctured case or unavailability of parts. (The 1300 lasted only one year, at least in the States, so a 1966 VW with a real 1300 still in it is a true garage queen, probably impossible to restore to original specs.)
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Don't forget the only boxer I can think of out of Detroit, the Corvair. Six cylinders, air cooled and ranging from 95hp to 180hp.
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Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.
Found outside the window of my office:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_IG1zYdpfI5U%2FTIYw-LpfDpI%2FAAAAAAAAPY0%2FgtfFqC4XG44%2Fs640%2F07092010.jpg&hash=2c175d92ad0fbad15a186bf4fffe92d2fcda454b)
greetings from a sunny north
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_IG1zYdpfI5U%2FTIYqHG6Py4I%2FAAAAAAAAPYg%2FiXj5gYysklA%2F07092010.jpg&hash=d89d7296ac1c1280f448946e41bd50cfc3c5065b)
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Posted by marcmx:
<<Don't forget the only boxer I can think of out of Detroit, the Corvair. Six cylinders, air cooled and ranging from 95hp to 180hp.>>
Scheisse, I totally forgot about the 'Vair Monza Spyder! Good catch, marcmax! This confession is especially troubling for me, for reasons below:
During summers in college, I worked for my uncle, who owned a Chevrolet-Cadillac franchise in Central Virginia. My job, particularly in the Service Department, permitted me to drive some of the better mass-produced cars of the period: several 63-66 Corvettes (pre-Stingray, developed by Zora Arkos-Duntov, a design/racing legend of mid-20th century), and 120 miles in a Jag XK-150. But my favorite? A 1964, 180 hp. supercharged (not a turbo) Corvair Monza Spyder convertible. Though it didn't have quite the top end of the 'Vette or the Jag (or the Studebaker Golden Hawk or Avanti, for that matter), the '64 Spyder was the quickest, most agile USA-manufactured car I've ever driven! (Chevrolet dumbed down the Spyder in '65, so there was only one great year. (]:o( ) It cornered like a demon, and was astonishingly exciting to drive in twisties, even on the horrible tires of the period.
Brief explaniation! The Corvair was horribly maligned by the Ralph Nader "Unsafe At Any Speed" scandal. Nader arguably had a case for the first (1960-62) models, for the 'Vair during those years could, if cornered hard, break loose its rear end and spin. (Not a good thing for a rear-engine car.) But then, the 'Vair had been conceived as a car for Granny to drive economically to the supermarket, so there was a question of the design envelope being torn by radical use. By the time Nader's book was published, Chevrolet already had redesigned the 'Vair's rear suspension & eliminated the problem. But no matter: The book was a sensation, then GM compromised its defense by allegedly invaded Nader's privacy rights. GM further compounded the problem by not vigorously defending the Corvair in the legal proceedings. To make matters even worse, the dealers' service department mechanics hated working on Corvairs, and (I suspect) therefore didn't do a great job on them. (I suspect this was because they hadn't been trained adequately on what was at the time a radically different engine from those that American technicians were accustomed to seeing.) Result: Corvairs had problems from (1) oil leaks (valve cover seals) and (2) inner cylinders overheating because of inadequate air flow. (Contemporary VW airhead mechanics had a similar problem with No. 3 cylinder tending to overheat; they solved this problem by setting looser tolerances when adjusting the valves of No. 3. But no one at GM would deign to acquire information by learning from a foreign competitor.)
Result: the Corvair died prematurely from the combination of horrible PR, lack of huevos among GM executives, and lack of commitment at dealer level.
FWIW, if I had the $$, at the top of my wish list of USA performance cars of the period would be:
1964 Studebaker Avanti (reputedly good for 140-160 mph off the showroom floor. (I believe #1, doubt #2.))
1950s Studebaker Hawk-small V8, very slow 0-60 (low torque), but would outrun any police from 60mph+
2004 Corvair Monza Spyder (closest thing to a Porsche produced in the USA in that era)
Special note about the Hawks: I think the Studebaker Hawks were the closest the USA manufacturers came to producing a European-style GT sedan. (They were 4-seat hardtops.) The Golden Hawk's small-block, supercharged V8 was almost as fast as the two-seater Avanti of the 1960s, and the lesser (carbureted) Hawks were not much slower. (At least in a straight line -- I won't vouch for braking and cornering of any US car of the period - except, perhaps, the '64 Monza Spyder's cornering.)
There are others on my list:
Performance:
1950s Hudson Hornet (dominated early NASCAR - prized by young males for another reason). Amazing car!
1963 Corvette SS (Only 50 produced, designed & engineered by Arkos-Duntov, strictly for sportscar racing).
1968 Camaro Z28 (Only the 1968(?) (first year of the option) was a true performance car. The next year, Chevrolet (in its infinite stupidity) dumbed down the performance of the Z28 to make it only slightly hotter than the top-line regular Camaro. The first-year Z28s were truly nasty; subsequent models were relative pussycats, though the trim packages proclaimed that they were still tigers.
Styling:
1955 Chevrolet Bel Air V8 hardtop or convertible (long rear deck)
1957 Ford Fairlane V8 2-door Hardtop (long rear deck). Looked great, and with proper(?) silencers, had a sound like nothing else.
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Ah yes the Corvair. I recall Corvair engines being highly sought after by VW van owners to replace the standard 4 cylinder VW engine, which was the same one used in the Beetle. And judging from my old '69 bus, it really needed it to give it minimally adequate performance.
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There was even a Ferrarri vehicle with a boxer engine, they called it a 180 degree V-12 ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Berlinetta_Boxer
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There was even a Ferrarri vehicle with a boxer engine, they called it a 180 degree V-12 ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Berlinetta_Boxer
Lame article! It doesn't even show the engine!
here are some pictures:
http://www.coleccionables.com.ar/cars/ferarri1.htm
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/16070/index.html?no_cache=1
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I recall Corvair engines being highly sought after by VW van owners to replace the standard 4 cylinder VW engine, which was the same one used in the Beetle.
I can see that -- the Corvair 6 would be preferable to the 4 in the van, even if the displacement was the same (it wasn't). Did the switch require a lot of modification?
By 1968 even the Beetles were running 1500 cc engines. I thought the VW vans and pickups had the 1600 by then, but I might be mistaken. (Because the 1300 engine in the 66 lasted only one year, owners put 1500s and 1600s into the 66s when their 1300s blew (parts for 1300w were impossible).) I have a 1600 from a van in my own 66 (by necessity). Much more torque than the smaller engine.
I wasn't around the vans very much, so I wasn't aware of the 'Vair engine's popularity as a drop-in. (Was tempted to buy a used VW Crew Cab (4-seater) pickup in the early nineties. The VW pickup was neat-all of the sides were hinged could be dropped down like tailgates, making the pickup a dream to load and unload (a total flatbed). I passed on the Crew Cab because of probable rust issues.
BTW, apparently a really simple drop-in was to put a Porsche 351 engine into a Beetle, resulting in disguised street screamer. One of my college friends claimed to have had one in high school (until his brother totaled it). I've heard that the switch didn't require any modification. Personally, I think I'd want to change clutch and pressure plate/flywheel while I was at it.
8
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I also had the fastback version of the square-back VW (can't remember the year or model #) that was an air-cooled boxer.
[Full-disclosure time: I had to run to the basement for my "VW Good Book" (John Muir's How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive, a Manual of Step by Step Procedures for the Compleat Idiot) to be certain.] Your Fastback was a Type III. Production (or at least, importation into USA) began with the 1968 model, I think, and ended in 1974.
That's it! It was a type III.
I've got a copy of the "Complete Idiot" book around here myself! Been a while since I had a VW, though. The first was the Type II, the I bought a brand new '74 SuperBeetle with factory sunroof, & cool chrome wheels.I added a CB (remember those?), an 8-track or a cassette deck (can't remember which) & a bunch of other accessories. That bug stayed in the family for many years as my younger brother got it in a family trade that landed me a '74 Triumph Spitfire. My last VW broke the boxer mold with an '84 Rabbit GTI. Another great one! That was the first car I put over 100K miles before trading.
Frank W.
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If you really want to about boxer frankenbikes how about an R60/2 with a VW engine shoehorned in.
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OMG! I, too, completely forgot about my snazzy 1964 Corvair Monza convertible. Drove both the 'vair and my Triumph motorcycle through most of my undergrad days.
Regarding the flat six Corvair engine in the VW bus, I work with a goofy guy that has a VW "Westy" camper bus powered with an aluminum block, Buick V-6 with a higher geared VW tranny. Really scary at Interstate highway speeds...
My flying VW Boxer projects:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FVW%2520Flyers%2FKRVW.01.jpg&hash=ef65d010dff9ab954d8af019a6a13fcd84652d1e)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FVW%2520Flyers%2FKRVW.03.jpg&hash=4e136949b998dbb71242fc9cdb2bd671de50fb1f)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FVW%2520Flyers%2FMontePiet.jpg&hash=fa815aa390f272cde7d68b1597aaaae8ce1160ce)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FVW%2520Flyers%2FPietVW.02.jpg&hash=f4bc7dc01fd5f9308bb5ea9b5cb5896d40d57902)
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The Jowett Jupiter was a really beautiful little sports car with a 4-cyl boxer engine. Made in Britain around 1948-53. Plenty of photos on websites, try a search engine. I would love to have one but it takes a good machinist with workshop to keep one going these days - that's qualifications I just don't have....
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We had 2 Corvairs. The earlier one that Nader scuppered, then the 1966 Corvair Corsa which I think had 4 carbs and was a fine car. Dad never has a problem cornering either and he was something of a Stirling Moss!
Anyone comment on the Corsa, the later model design? Got over 300,000 miles on it back when we were imperial measure here in Canada!
I has a 1957 VW Bug and the 1980 Subaru. Maybe I have been drawn to boxers??
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Anyone comment on the Corsa, the later model design?
Sue, I never got to drive a Corsa because I was teaching school and not working for uncle when the 66s were introduced. If you say it was good, I gotta believe it.
My overall take on the 'Vair: The first year had suspension problems, and could be treacherous if overdriven. I seem to recall the second model year was about half-fixed. By 1963, it was a well-handling car that would easily out-corner the Beetles of that model year. (More about the Beetles later.) I can give you a benchmark regarding the Corvairs I drove: IMO, the 1964 Monza Spyder 180 hp supercharged 'Vair was very close to the Porsche 914 "Volksporsche" (the 4-cylinder 914 for sure) of the late '60s/early '70s. I don't know whether it had the top end of the 914, but I think it was just as quick in the twisties.
[Tuesday 22:00 — I stand (somewhat) corrected on one point, and thoroughly confused on another:
Correction — According to numerous web gurus, the '64 Spyder was a turbo, not a supercharge. (The Golden Hawk was a super. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Regarding the Spyder, I'll stand corrected, but I'm by no means convinced. I've been under the engine bonnet of one, and it had more plumbing up on the manifold than any turbo I can recall. But I'll defer to the experts on that one, with one doubting question: it seems to my mechanically-ignorant senses that there would be horrendous heat problems with a turbo, six-cylinder airhead in an enclosed compartment. (Turbos required kid-glove treatment in liquid-cooled cars until the intercooler was introduced. Aside from the SCCA types and a few engineers, I don't think there were many American drivers in 1964 who knew how to treat a turbo so as to get any kind of longevity out of the engine. (To this day, I don't want a non-intercooled turbo because of the TLC it requires to prevent eventual damage from inadequate warmup and cooldown. (Again, intercoolers help somewhat.)
Confusion — The different web sites had differing opinions about the horsepower rating of the '64 Spyder. A majority view is that it was 150 hp, not the 180 that I remember. They write that the redesigned '65 had 180, up from 150 in '64. Again, my memory leans to 180 in '64, cut back to 150 in '65. (Wussing down the Spyder from a screamer to a relative whiner would be consistent with GM policy in that era. Remember the first GTO in '64? Later models were not as fast or as brutish as the '64 because Pontiac wanted to sell to older, richer buyers who might have been scared off by the '64 Goat's insane power, linked with marginal braking and so-so handling. To confuse matters further, one web guru thinks that the '64 Spyder began the model year at 150 hp, but during the model year Chevrolet juiced the engine up to 180 hp! :-? Anyway, I ain't so certain, anymore, and there isn't a Monza Spyder down the street that I might check in order to find out.
I don't think the '64 Spyder was as fast as the 914/6 (very few of those made it to North America, I understand). My colleague in Germany (73-75) had a 914/6 that was an adrenaline rush. Like the Corvair, the 914/6 was cursed by overheating of the inner cylinders, even worse than #3 in the Beetles. I suspect it was too much engine for the enclosure, and too little air circulating over the fins, but I'm not certain. Memory is hazy, but I think he made the Autobahn run from Würzburg-München once in about 2.5 hours, and likely, considerably less. Can't remember the road distances involved, but I seem to remember that he averaged >160km/hr, point-to-point.
As for Beetles of the period: Anyone who had a Bug Type I model earlier than '67 was familiar with the outboard swing-arm rear axle's tendency to curl under the car when cornered hard. (The older brother of one of my students in 1965-66 rolled his new bug by curling the outboard axle.) My '66 originally had a crude, (apparently) dealer-installed camber compensator consisting of a pair of brackets and two heavy canvas U-straps riveted to them. The canvas ripped from impact when the car was creamed by a hit-and-run in 1985. When I restored the Bug in 1994, I installed anti-sway bars on the front, a steel-strap camber compensator on the rear, and Bilstein gas-filled shocks, front and and rear. The outdated tire design might break traction, or the car might understeer, but I don't worry much about the outside rear axle going vertical and pole-vaulting me in a turn. (The car handles so well, I wish I could find a bargain Porsche 351 engine to drop into it.)
Back to the Spyder for one more quibble: One of the web gurus stated several times that the early 'Vairs were prone to the same wheel-and-axle roll-under that the Bugs had if cornered hard. But the guy erroneously stated, more than once, that it was the *inside* wheel that would curl under. Not correct; it *has* to be the outside!
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FWIW, I just made a $.02-worth correction to the preceding reply #20. It was a case of post-publication information inducing me to set the record straight. (Rather, to confuse it further.)
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Forgot about the Bradford - 1,000cc flat twin.Saw this nice one yesterday.And also my Ural with the 40hp VW engine.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1009.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf212%2Fbmwr65%2FPA300448.jpg&hash=4f31eb171f8c050029bb25ed74151c6039f4ae42)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg229.imageshack.us%2Fimg229%2F9955%2Fscan0007vg5.jpg&hash=3db8a11cc47f000fd81493b179660b7bedc5e577)
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Did anyone mention the Isetta 300 from Italy, made in the '50s with a BMW-supplied Boxer engine? The car enjoyed a public revival of sorts in the '90s in the TV sit-com, "Family Matters". One of the characters in the show, "Steve Urkel" (Jaleel White), played a teen nerd who drove one of these babies from time to time. It became known as the "Erkel-Mobile".
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I could be wrong but I think the Isetta (which was a real BMW product made in Germany) did not have a boxer engine but used the 250 cc single engine from the R/25 series motorcycle. When I was a teenager in London there were quite a few of them around, along with the Heinkel which looked like a stretch-limo version of the Isetta. When there were three or four of us we used to pick up these front-opening minicars and repark them with the door right up against a wall. I guess we were not very good citizens in those days.
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And another detail: Bob Roller on Oct 10 mentioned the Ferrari flat 12 boxer engine fitted to the 312PB race car. You can buy a lovely model, 1:6 scale, of this engine with gearbox. A very detailed model with sound effects and gearstick to cause them. I don't know who makes it but in this country it costs £600, equal to about $800 I think. See Nauticalia catalogue, www.nauticalia.com.
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You're right, Constellation, my bad. It was the Isetta 600 that featured the R67s 582cc Boxer engine.
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1974 Porsche 911 Carrera
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1971 Porsche 917 12 cyl engine