The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: montmil on August 06, 2010, 04:12:17 PM
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The main result of my recent dash through the Texas Hill Country's Three Twisted Sisters has been my decision to upgrade rear shocks and alter the front fork's damping action a wee bit on the '81 R65.
Called Dave Quinn this morning and had him suggest what I needed in the way of new Hagon shocks. Kinda like going to see your personal medicine man; he asks lots of questions about rider, bike and riding preferences. I told him the "look" I was after and left the rest to him. Cool guy.
I currently run age unknown Progressives on the rear. No clue as to spring rates. Chrome upper shields and springs are looking a bit rust pitted. How's that for an excuse to buy new shocks?
http://www.davequinnmotorcycles.com/
It hasn't been that long since I rebuilt the fork internals, so will initially bump up the BMW-recommended 7.5wt fork oil to a hefty 10wt. Doesn't sound like a big alteration -7.5 to 10wt- but expect to feel a noticeable difference. The front end seemed to blow through the damping stroke too quickly during spirited mountain riding.
Expect to wait 5-7 days for the UPS truck. Plenty of time to swap fork oil.
Monte
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Great! I am really happy with my Hagon shocks. Dave Quinn was great to work with. Good shocks really make a difference in the ride. 8-)
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So Monte, did you go for the chrome or black springs? The Hagons I'm planning to get in the golden future keen switching from black to chrome and will occasionally jump from trimline to wideline. You really can't choose wrong, though. They're all nice! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Looking forward to your ride report when you get them installed.
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So Monte, did you go for the chrome or black springs? The Hagons I'm planning to get in the golden future keen switching from black to chrome and will occasionally jump from trimline to wideline. You really can't choose wrong, though. They're all nice! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Looking forward to your ride report when you get them installed.
Dave's got a photo of my new shocks on his website. #1 in the mug shot lineup.
Black body, Type A shocks. Chrome Slimline springs -Dave sez spring rates are same for both styles, just a cosmetic choice. Plus no shrouds on my shocks.
Dave said I would enjoy the 100lb progressive springs much better than the stock 110 pounders. Me being a slim and handsome fellow. [smiley=wink.gif] Plus the R65 is a buck nekkid roadster and I don't carry passengers... ever.
When you buy shocks from Dave, he offers a two-time opportunity to change spring rates at no charge other than shipping. He wants you to be happy with his products.
Should be just a bit less than a week for a road test report. Dare I go back to Leakey (TX) and the Three Sisters for the proper test?
Monte
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Are the Hagon shocks rebuildable ?
Couldn't find it mentioned on the website .
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Are the Hagon shocks rebuildable ? Couldn't find it mentioned on the website .
Dunno. Me either. :-?
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I put the very same Hagons on Britta a couple of months, and love 'em.
Unfortunately, now that the back end is so well behaved, I'm seeing just how completely worn out the front suspension is! :o
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I put the very same Hagons on Britta a couple of months, and love 'em.
Unfortunately, now that the back end is so well behaved, I'm seeing just how completely worn out the front suspension is! :o
Any ideas on fork upgrades, Steve? I'm going to try 10wt fork oil up from the BMW 7.5wt. Just want to 'snug up" the damping a little bit. Too much negative feedback about the Progressive front spring offering to convince me to buy 'em.
Monte
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Dave said I would enjoy the 100lb progressive springs much better than the stock 110 pounders. Me being a slim and handsome fellow.Plus the R65 is a buck nekkid roadster and I don't carry passengers... ever.
Slim, yes, even for a guy that drinks mass quantities of cerveza. Handsome, uh, don't push it Monte. I seem to recall a photo of you with something that resembles a pork chop around your neck, probably so the dog would play with you. [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]
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I put the very same Hagons on Britta a couple of months, and love 'em.
Unfortunately, now that the back end is so well behaved, I'm seeing just how completely worn out the front suspension is! :o
Any ideas on fork upgrades, Steve? I'm going to try 10wt fork oil up from the BMW 7.5wt. Just want to 'snug up" the damping a little bit. Too much negative feedback about the Progressive front spring offering to convince me to buy 'em.
Monte
Well, the front end on Britta clearly needs everything. After checking into several springs and doing some research, a couple of people whose opinions I respect have recommended the Progressives, so that's the way I'm headed soon.
I'm told that those with the 10w will work wonders, and balance out the Hagons very well. I also plan to replace the seals, do the front brakes, and add a SS line while everything's apart, as soon as I can scratch up the $$$. Seems like there's been a lot more outflow than incoming here lately. :-?
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I installed Progressive springs on my '81 about 3 years ago .
I would say that compared to the OEM springs that had 78,000 miles on them, they seemed a bit stiff .
But after 5-6,000 miles, I'm quite satisfied with them .
Only negative comment I can make about them right after installing them, is a strange squeaking sound from the forks, but that noise is gone now .
I also installed gaiters at that time, should have done that a long time ago .
The other two R65's will get them when I do fork rebuilds once the temperatures cool down here in the suburb of hell I call home .
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I think that you can get Hagon springs for the front shocks. I priced them a year or so ago when I was fantasizing about an all-new suspension and they were up there, about $135 for the pair from Dave Quinn and a 4-5 week wait. I'm not sure how they compare to Progressives, besides being more expensive. I personally wouldn't want stiffer springs than what I have now, which I think are OEM.
I had the springs out a couple of weeks ago when I was changing the fluids and installing new rubber bumpers, the originals having melted into a semi-liquid state. My spring lengths were in the good range according to Clymer, so I decided to just keep on with what I got. I did move from 7.5 weight oil to 5 and can hardly tell any difference.
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Five weight, Yikes? I'm bumping up the juice in the '81 to 10wt in an effort to keep the front end from blowing through the suspension stroke on even moderate bumps. I'll take a peak at Brother Quinn's front fork springs, but not until I give the new Hagon rears and the 10wt front juice a fair test.
Monte
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I think Monte is right to be cautious about fitting stiffer front springs especially as the rear units are to have lower spring rate. Our basic damper rod forks are going to dive under braking it's in their nature. Dive can be controlled some with heavier oil and also by increasing the oil level.
A good test is to fit a cable tie loosely around one stanchion and ride the bike hard to see how much travel is being used. The whole idea is to use most of the travel with say an inch or so left for emergencies. If you don't use most of the travel then the springs are already too stiff. The cable tie can also be used to measure rider sag. Sit on the bike at rest and the forks should sag about 35mm. For me (170lbs at a guess - Ive never stood on the bathroom scales in my helmet and leathers) these tests show that the stock springs are plenty stiff enough.
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A good test is to fit a cable tie loosely around one stanchion and ride the bike hard to see how much travel is being used. The whole idea is to use most of the travel with say an inch or so left for emergencies. If you don't use most of the travel then the springs are already too stiff.The cable tie can also be used to measure rider sag.
Good info, Barry. Of course, if you have gaiters, you will need to remove them to perform these tests.
And speaking of gaiters used on the Type-248's, these bikes were not made for them, and as such, a specific gaiter was never engineered for them.
When I installed mine, I had the top of the gaiter up as far as it would go, and I put the bottom nice and pretty right over the top of the fork slider, where the dust boot formerly sat. (I thought it looked nice, that way!)
It was pointed out to me that on compression, the gaiter collapses, but once collapsed all of the way, the fork cannot compress any further.
The trick is, to pull the bottom of the gaiter as far down on the fork slider as it will go. This will expand the gaiter a little more, giving you that much more fork travel.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F69009424%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=5e3cce8459df90a27517cd8372d39a09ad2f5d05)
If I had a bike with a aftermarket fork brace with gaiters, I think I would remove the brace to allow more gaiter travel.
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This afternoon, Thursday, the Brown Truck Guy dropped off the new Hagons. Clean and shiny with bright chrome springs, unlike my current rusty pit Progressive springs.
Yesterday, I changed out the fork oil from BMW's 7.5wt to Bel-Ray 10wt and found a noticeable difference during a short test ride. The front end feels more secure, if that non-technical explanation makes sense to anyone other than me.
Right now, the thermometer on the shop wall says 106 degrees with the fan running. Think I'll get up early tomorrow to fit the new Hagons and go for a test spin on a few twisters just north of town. Want to get back mid-morning before it gets too warm to seriously play outside.
Hoping for WSB performance but will happily settle for the old gal just maintaining a safe and steady track through mildly sporty turns and bumps.
Monte
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I'm back to the house and it is done. New Hagons have been fitted, the fork oil was changed to 10wt and this morning I've been out looking for bumps, dips, sunken manhole covers and fun curves.
I was in the shop at 0500 this Friday morning. Me and a big cup of coffee. And no, Bengt, the funeral home is not open this early. It has been a morning of discoveries.
After removing the first old boinger from the '81, I measured the eye-to-eye distance and discovered that Blackie has been a low-rider bajito. The shock measured 12.25 inches/286mm. Walked over to the Mexico Bike and confirmed those shocks are 13.0 inches. Eyeballed the top of the rear tire to fender gap and discovered an obvious difference.
Also discovered the old shocks had narrower mounting bolt bushings than the new Hagons and had been pinched closed a bit. Shock mounts needed some love. Tweak, tweak some more, tweak to just right.
Took off on a short ride and immediately discovered an improved responsiveness in the flickability of the motorcycle. The correct length rear shocks decreased both the rake angle and altered the position of the front tire's contact patch. Tthe bike feels a bit more sporty. I am pleased with the alterations.
For those interested, here's a nice article about motorcycle steering dynamics.
http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/school-SectionFiveB.htm
And there's one last discovery. A few weeks ago, I fitted a 1983 version center stand to the '81. Trying to get some relief from the dead weight lift required just to get the bike on its stand. The improved design BMW stand helped a lot but there was still some weight-training involved each time I parked.
The surprise happy discovery is the greatly reduced effort needed to roll the bike up on the center stand. Three-quarters of an inch additional rear shock length was the real issue!
Monte
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All I can say to your success is a great big Yeeeeehaw! Now go treat yourself to a big jelly donut. The mortuaries should be open by now and the coffee will be hot. There's a really nice one up in Saint Jo up the road from you and that should make for a nice ride.
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In your installation, did you happen to notice if the Hagons are rebuildable or not ?
I was checking the shocks from Ikon last week, the shock for the twin shock R65's shows an eye to eye dimension of 12.80 inches .
Anyone know what the original OEM shock dimensions were ?
I could have sworn that I saw a dimension of 14.25 inches somewhere for OEM shocks .
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Monte, what spring pre-load position should the shocks be in when you measure the length? I would guess fully released in the softest position, but I don't know.
My Icons are rebuildable but I need to make a tool to unscrew a retaining plate, a pin wrench that I can force to stay in place whilst I loosen the plate.
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In your installation, did you happen to notice if the Hagons are rebuildable or not ?
I was checking the shocks from Ikon last week, the shock for the twin shock R65's shows an eye to eye dimension of 12.80 inches .
Anyone know what the original OEM shock dimensions were ?
I could have sworn that I saw a dimension of 14.25 inches somewhere for OEM shocks .
Monte, what spring pre-load position should the shocks be in when you measure the length? I would guess fully released in the softest position, but I don't know.
I saw nothing, Bob, that would indicate the Hagons are rebuildable. If they were, I'm thinking Dave Quinn would provide that information on his website as an additional sales tool. Compared to several other shocks I've looked at, the Hagons are a fine dollar value, rebuildable or not.
12.80 inches is close but just a wee bit shorter than OEM. It would probably take a very sensitive and experienced individual to notice any definable difference; I think.
I have a pair of original R65 rear shocks complete with the neat built-in, spring preload adjustment handles. They are 13.0 inches.
Ed, I don't believe it makes much difference as to preload position. If the shocks are off the bike, the spring will extend the shock's shaft to its maximum extension. If on the bike, just jack up up to max preload and you'll have full extension without a doubt.
Monte