The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
General Category => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: henrythegrif on September 17, 2008, 01:42:31 AM
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Hi, all,
I've been reading your forum and am deeply impressed with the helping hand everyone seems to offer each other--even to the newbies. Well, I'm one, and I'm pretty hooked on owning a R65. In fact, there are a couple for sale here in Portland, OR, but I'm wondering if anyone around here who knows these bikes would mind looking at them with me.
I'm about to take the Basic Rider Training Course at PCC, and I'm not foolish enough to climb onto a bike till I have. And when I'm ignorant, I can admit it. And I'm ignorant. But I'm learning as much as I can on my own. If one of you could spare a couple hours to test ride a couple bikes with me over the next few weeks, I would really appreciate it.
I honestly don't know if this is too much to ask of people I don't know, but I can say I'm always willing to pass along or return the favor.
Thanks so much.
Doug in Portland
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I think that we have at least a couple members in your general area, we have a map page on Frappr with a bunch of us marked, though we have more members than what is shown on frappr:
http://www.frappr.com/r65org
Welcome aboard ! You are right, we have a friendly, helpful bunch here !
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I sent an email to Mike Bickford; he lives up around Beaverton somewhere. I don't get up that way very often. Will the sellers allow test rides? Many won't.
Do you mind flattering us by telling us how you decided on an R65 for your bike?
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Welcome aboard Doug, and good luck finding the right R65.
Ed
;)
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Thanks for the replies, everyone. And thanks for the contacts you're reaching out to, and for the map.
Ed, I picked a BMW R65 because, first of all, I found some for sale on the various sites (Craigslist, IBMWR, etc) and then started researching them and then, with a touch of obsessive compulsive disorder at my back like a tail wind, found lots of info, including this site. It was really this site that probably did it. Reading everyone's advice to newbies, accounts of why they love their R65, etc. Not to mention the R65 FAQ site.
And I've always liked the weird Princess Leia cylinders and that odd BMW sound. And I fell for the idea that I can do much of the work on them, just like on my VWs of old. And then there's German engineering. It all added up to a hunch that this was the bike for me.
Terribly rational, no? Oh, yeah, and they're in my price range. At 650cc it's probably a bigger bike than I'd otherwise choose for my first, but I didn't read any accounts of anyone being completely overwhelmed by their power, so I figured maybe I'd be OK if I took it slow and easy.
I really appreciate your help. I've heard BMW motorcycle owners are friendly.
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Oh, yeah, as for test drives, I'm sure many won't. Some will, with $$$ in their hand. I should really have asked if anyone would be willing to look and listen to the bikes with me and give me their insights.
Thanks again,
doug
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hey doug,
My name is mike Bickford. I have been REALLLY busy last couple of months, and havent been riding since my surgery, but i do own a pair of r65s and would help you out if you need me to.
Ed, thanks for the email, and heads up. Things are hectic right now, and my parent might be moving in with me for a bit. So it rush rush rush to get the place cleaned. Kickball has started again, and throw in 5:45am starts at work, plus a 10:00 closing, it doesnt leave much time for the bikes. :-(
sad to say, I sold the toaster tank r60/5. I had the trANNY OUT FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS, AND HAD NOT EVEN WORKED ON THE BIKE IN a year... i never had the time or money to restor it anyway. But i took the cash, and turned it around the next day into a commuting bicycle :) So, at least im not burning gas, and still on 2 wheels.
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Mike,
Pleased to meet you. And I truly appreciate the offer of help. Sounds like you're insanely busy, so I will call on you very selectively, if at all.
There are two R65s for sale in Portland right now, but I won't have my money together for at least another week. If one or both are still available then, perhaps you would have an hour to take a look at them with me. On the other hand, if you're still working 16 hours a day, I'm not sure I could bring myself to ask you.
At any rate, links to the bikes below, and I'll check in with you in a little more than a week. Thanks so much. Doug
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/840470331.html
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/841609760.html
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Too bad that neither of these have working odometers - not that it should necessarily kill the deal, but can make things more of a guess-work proposition, as well
as complicating the title/registration process if going out of state. Of the two, I think that the $3500 requested from the Bronco Brown one is much too high, and the $1950 for the Luftmeister equipped unit may be a pretty decent /fair price - all this is without physically examining the bikes, of course.
The '79s are nice bikes, but I like the enhancements that BMW made to the post-80 models a bit better myself.
Best of luck - look forward to hearing how it turns out. Remember, if the deal doesn't seem good to you, don't be afraid to walk from it. There are more R65s around, it just takes some patience... :)
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Hey, NHMAF,
thanks for your initial take on the R65 bikes for sale. I wondered if that price on the Bronco Brown (much as I love the color) wasn't a bit up there. Thanks for the good counsel to be patient. It''s hard to hold back, but you're dead on right.
Doug
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Hi henrythegrif,
I'm the one selling the 79 bronco brown r65 in Portland and even if you don't buy my bike, I'm very willing to talk BMWs with you. As for the price, I personally don't think my price is too high given the condition of the bike, its known history (I can provide you with the prior and only other owner's contact information as well as point you to the mechanic who has maintained it after I purchased it), the way it rides, the way it looks (tank, paint, chrome, etc.), the accessories (original bags and bag mounts & r65 specific fairing), the original seat in excellent condition, and the piece of mind you get from buying a bike that is ridden often during the dry months and stored properly in the winter and well-cared for, instead of buying an unknown bike on ebay or from an owner that rarely rides or has just purchased and fixed-up a barn find (although I love barn finds!). This is not a marginal-looking, spend-a-lot-of-money- to-make-it-look-and-run-good bike. Any experienced BMW owner can tell you that you can spend hundreds if not thousands fixing up one of these bikes, which can eat considerably into any money you saved on the initial purchase. I've been a member/participant on this forum since my introduction to the r65 about six years ago, although I don't post very often and recently renewed my enrollment. I also own a 1971 r60/5 which I purchased this summer and have previously been involved in the restoration of two r75/5s and various vespa scooters to boot. I'm not a mechanic - but I know how to perform routine maintenance and take care of an airhead. And I like to turn wrenches . . . on my bicycles, motorcycles, scooter, or my 85 Mercedes diesel.
The odometer quit working (@31K) at the end of the riding season in 2006, but I didn't ride that much last year as I was restoring a vespa and spent much of my time riding that when it was complete. As soon as the weather got nice in April this year, I pulled the r65 out of the garage and started riding it daily until I bought the r60/5 in July. I've been riding the r65 again recently as I've been tweaking a few issues I'm having with my r60/5. I forgot how fun the r65 is to ride - completely different that the /5 - it is a fun bike to ride. I tell you this to give you an idea of the mileage - the odometer works intermittently (basically, when it's cold outside), but I'd be surprised if the total mileage is above 36K (I only need to ride about 10 miles on the freeway to get to work everyday plus around town riding) and really don't have the time for extended road trips - maybe one or two to the coast. But that's the wonder of the r65 - it's the perfect around town BMW - the exact reason I bought it. Even if my estimate is off by a couple thousand, this bike has TONS of miles left to ride and its condition warrants making any repairs that happen to come up worthwhile. And you definitely shouldn't have any trouble changing the title over to your name - especially with a bike this old.
As for the upgrades to the post 80 models, it is true that some improvements were made, but I have never really felt the need for them. Might be a biased opinion coming from a person that really likes the older models, but my bike runs well, is the first year the r65 was imported into the USA (which I think is cool), and I personally like the look of the 79/80 models better than the post 80 - the seat cowl is different and I prefer the all aluminum airbox cover to the plastic one found on the later models. I would surmise that as a beginner or even an experienced rider, you would be hard pressed to REALLY notice a big difference between the two. And I, also, like the bronco brown. Other's opinions will vary and to each his own.
Given all this info, the price is set where I feel is fair - if you think otherwise, make me an offer and I will consider it. If I feel your offer is too low, I may decide not to accept it as this bike might just be worth keeping! Or just come by to take a look and talk BMWs. It's in the garage since it rained last night, but it'll be sunny out a few days this week and I'll be pulling it out to ride to work. Although I did get the wiring figured out on the /5 last night! Yahoo!
~Justin
cell phone 971 221 6423.
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I've read this thread closely because it tracks closely with my thought process in selecting my own bike..
The punch line: jdg's reasoning was the line I took when searching for, and selecting, my 1981. Henrythegrif asks the right questions as the prospective buyer. And the well-meaning kibitzers sitting on the fence have all contributed valuable insights.
A few weeks ago I outlined my thinking when searching for my bike. (Webmeister, I can't recall exactly when or on which thread.) I decided early in the process that I wanted an R65. I then decided that life (mine) is too short to deal with the vagaries of a project bike, given my long time off two-wheeled transportation, the other demands on my schedule, and my growing disinclination with being hassled en route to enjoying being in the saddle again. I wanted reasonably prompt, if not instant, gratification. Therefore, I reconciled that my notion of a "bargain" likely would not be the lowest possible price.
I ended up buying a low-mileage bike from a dealer at a price that was by no means comparable with what I see on eBay, this site's Trading Post, or BMWMOA's Flea Market. I still am convinced that it was the right decision for *me*. Why? Because, while not perfect, the bike has not given me any unpleasant surprises. Also, I have yet to suspect, let alone conclude, that the dealer fed me BS regarding what servicing had been done when it was turned in for resale, thus giving me at least a baseline on the bike's maintenance history. In short, I bet $$ for reliability, and to this point I think I've come out ahead.
Now, what does this mean in the context of the price of the 1979 R65s in question? I have two points of reference involving different dealers in my area. One occurred during my search; the other, after I bought my own bike.
When I shopped for a bike, I looked at a 1979 Bronco Brown at a dealer in my general area. The original asking price had been $3995, but the dealer had reduced to $2495. I passed on it because I didn't want to deal with one or two issues that the sales rep readily admitted.
A few months later, the dealer that had sold me my 1981 offered a 1979 Bronco for (I think) $3995. I happened to stop at the dealer and looked at the bike. I wanted to sit on it because the dealer had touted its lower frame because it had been modified with shorter shocks. (I liked the lower seat, but I can handle mine & I don't want to change a good thing.) Had I been shopping for a bike and had seen this one, side-by-side with the one I bought, I still would have chosen mine at a slightly higher price because (1) it was in better cosmetic condition; (2) I had a sense of its history; and (3) I was generally more confident in its predicted reliability.
My (admittedly) self-evident point in all this: The person who shops by price might do spectacularly well if that person is willing to live with the risk of disappointment, lost time, and additional $$ spent. Conversely, the person who knowingly and rationally pays a higher price might enjoy an equally strong sense of having found a bargain in perceived value for the money spent.
Enough of this pedantry! The point of this forum is to learn and have fun, right?
John
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First, let me state that I am not trying to slam or impugn anyone with this post. It is merely a commentary on things that I often see in motorcycle adverts in many areas. In my area in particular, some of the most outrageous misperceptions seem to occur with both private and licensed sellers of H-D bikes, but these observations can occur with any brand.
There are also regional market issues involved, so a universal buying or set price point approach doesn't generally work. In my area, there have been at least 8-10 R65 bikes for sale over the past 3 months. Of these, I know of (3) that were genuinely in very good-to-excellent condition: very well maintained, no dents or scratches, and with hard luggage and/or fairings, all the keys, etc. These machines sold for an average of between $2800 - 3100 US. Many of the other bikes were in lesser condition - and a couple were non-running. The sellers tried to get over $3K for these machines as well and they either did not sell and they kept lowering the price into the low $2K range or below or didn't sell at all. What I am saying is that in my area (New England), there are a fair number of R65s around, and only the very pristine examples command a price in the $3K - 4K range.
When I bought my '82 R65LS, I paid $2350 for it. It was running and I was able to test ride it, though it had been in storage for many years it was at least resurrected to the "running" stage by the seller. It was in need of numerous cosmetic and mechanical things, but all the pieces were there, absolutely nothing was missing, and the engine wasn't making any really expensive sounds, so I bought it, intending to be tinkering with it it over the years. I have spent many, many hours, and well over $1K on it replacing parts, cables, rebuilt transmission, shocks, springs, tires, tubes, etc, etc. I am probably going to sink many hundreds more over the winter getting her repainted too, but I would never expect to be able to sell it around here for much, if any, over $3K (no intention of selling it now, either!) even with all this investment and given the fact that it is a somewhat more rare model than the "regular" R65. However, if I lived out in California, especially around the San Fransisco area, these particular models appear to be in high demand, and I could potentially get close to $5K for it after it is repainted - I've seen similar
condition, low mileage R65LS models sell for that much there this year.
So, what I am trying to say, is that:
1. Sellers: Even if one has oodles of time and $$ into a bike to get it from a condition 'A' to condition 'B', don't expect to be able to recoup all your $$ invested if the market in your area values a bike in condition 'B' to be around $3K, even if you spent $5K on the bike and repairs to get it to that condition.
2. Sellers: "Farkles" or accessories on a bike - don't expect to recoup what they cost you when you bought them new and put them on the bike - the value that they add to a bike is not a direct sum of what it cost - they depreciate as well, and furthermore, that big custom painted pink metallic flake Windjammer X that you liked so well might not be looked at with such desire by a prospective buyer, and be the first thing that s/he want to toss in the bin after they take the bike home. Consider selling high-priced accessories separately and you'll get more $$ for them that way.
3. Buyers: Regional markets have a big effect on what is a good price. For example, you might want to buy an R65 over in my area for a generally lower price than what you'll find on the west coast, but getting the bike over to your home on the west coast will eat up much or all of the cost savings, if the only objective is $$.
Different models have different desirability and population density in different market areas, so even though R65s are generally less expensive over here than in
California, the same statement may not apply to monolever R100RTs, for instance.
4. Buyers: Altritter's points are good ones - also don't expect a dealer to sell a bike at a price as low as a private individual *may*, as the dealer (at least in our region) generally has to sell the bike in a known condition, and may by law be required to provide some sort of short term warranty or repair terms if you are unsatisfied. Some private sellers will certainly sell you the bike as it just rolled out of the barn where it has slept for the past 25 years, but most dealers cannot get away with that sort of thing. This does provide at least some peace of mind, and you should be expected to pay a bit more for it. How much is dependent on dealers reputation, and general condition of the bike balanced against your desire.
OK, getting off my little soapbox now ! The key thing to remember is: Be aware of what the fair market price is in your region when you go to buy/sell a bike. Buyers have to balance their willingness to pay premiums against the condition of the bike and their desire for it, and sellers have to mitigate their emotional attachment to the machine with a regionally fair selling price.
:)
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Not sure I disagree totally with you on the regional aspects of buying a moto, but one also has to account for shipping costs if a moto is bought from a location that would require shipping. Let's say, a minimum of $500 plus the uncertainty of buying a moto that you have not seen, much less ridden. I don't think you meant to address that point in your post, but it is worth mentioning. As for the value of accessories and maintenance work performed, I don't think most sellers intend to recoup money spent on maintaining or fixing a moto. But, in most cases, the purchase of accessories and the cost to get a moto to the desired condition far outweigh saving $1000 off the initial price of a bike.
For instance, I'd imagine that a purchaser of a plain (no fairing, no bags, no hoops) r65 (or whatever model) with US bars in so-so shape that wished to obtain those accessories and convert the bike to euro bars might be in for a surprise at the time and expense incurred to finish the intended project and get the bike to fine-running shape. I am, of course, assuming that our purchaser is not yet familiar with the mechanics of a BMW and would hire a mechanic for larger repairs such as a leaky main seal, carb synch, fork overhaul, removing a large fairing and rewiring the bucket, and servicing the bike with a Level 2 service or above to get it running like a top. That expense, plus the time and money of hunting for and finding a set of bags/hoops in good condition and any other accessories that are no longer available or expensive if purchased brand new could, and probably would, exceed the $1000 saved on the initial purchase price. Add to that the expense of a repaint or tank repair/replacement if the color is not what the purchaser wanted or if the sheet metal is not in as good of condition as desired. Plus, how much more would you spend to get the color you want versus the color that is for sale? All questions specific to a particular buyer, I suppose.
I have put far more than the asking price into this bike since I purchased it, either through upgrades (NOS chrome hoops, NOS painted fairing, NOS reynolds ride off, etc) or service that I could not or did not perform myself. I'm sure that's true of most airhead sellers and like them, I'm not expecting to recoup that money when I sell the bike. It's money well spent for a hobby that I love. In the end, the market will dictate the purchase price, and if I don't like what the market brings, I suppose I'll just have to keep it! But given the condition and the whole package involved, I don't think my price is out of line. Someone shopping for a deal might, and likely will, find a cheaper r65. Not sure what they'll get for their money and if they get a steal of a deal on a pristine barn find, more power to them. I'll be the first to buy them a beer. But to the future owner of my r65 (if there is one), I know they'll be buying a complete and sound moto that was well cared for and that runs great. To me, that's money well spent.
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I someone has neither the ability or inclination to do 100% of the work required to bring an old runner up to snuff then he/she will be tons of money ahead by buying one that is already in that condition. I know people who have wanted vintage car X, couldn't "afford" one in restored condition so they bought a "project" and farmed everything out. They invariably wound up paying far more than they could have purchased a completed example for.
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I don't think that we have a disagreement. And, my point was that if one buys a bike from another region where the bike prices are generally lower, the cost (which could be plane/bus tickets, motel rooms, dinners and gasoline, or palletizing&shipping costs) of getting it back home would end up adding to the total, which could eliminate any of the initial bike purchase savings. Some folks would buy a vehicle without personally checking it out or at least through a proxy going to check it out, but I would not. A well cared for, well documented R65 in very good condition is certainly worth more than a complete unknown, or even a known bike of lesser condition, there is no question about it.
What amazes me is what often happens in my area - John Q Public buys a H-D, and then spends $4K on it to get it to look and sound the way that he wants it to. He rides it around for several years, and then decides to sell it to get the next H-D. His selling price posted is almost always the topmost Blue-book value for the bike PLUS the original purchase price ($4K) of all the options that he put on it. This is serious delusion ! Anyone offering a reasonable price for the bike is snubbed, but that is the prerogative of the seller...
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FYI - sold for asking price in May of 2009.