The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: suecanada on January 19, 2008, 05:26:24 PM
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As some of you know I sent my cylinder heads to Ted Porter for valve work as LRB's exhaust valve on the left side only kept closing up too quickly. All I can say is that I am mighty glad I pulled LRB off the road when I did. So, pay attention to those valve clearance changes!!! Best advice I ever got! here's what Ted has found:
"Hi Sue,
I have inspected your heads and replaced the exhaust seats which had bad recession. Someone has been into these heads before. The exhaust valve guides are badly worn and they were oversized so the guide bores are quite large. I have some oversize guides in stock that I will be fitting soon, I expect the valves to be here soon and I expect the whole job to be done within about two weeks.
The previous machinist used an aftermarket stainless exhaust valve with very poor hardening, the keeper grooves had widened badly and were about to fail. I hate to say this, but whoever did your heads before used very poor materials and methods. We'll get them straightened out for you.
Best regards,
Ted Porter
BeemerShop"
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Close call !!!
You just don't know what has been previously done, let alone done correctly when you are not the original owner !!
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Yikes. At least yours weren't the ones he's been talking about recently on the Airlist, where the intake and exhaust valves were reversed. Yeah the bike ran, but I don't know how.
I just adjusted my valves the other day and had to loosen up my right exhaust valve another .002"; it had closed from .010 to .008. Obviously it ran fine, but that's still closing up. That happened in 5,000 miles, and it closed up about that much in the previous 5,000 miles. Before that it never changed.
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Wow, Sue - sorry to hear that LRB's valves/heads were that messed up, but at least it was caught in time, and just think how well it will run afterwards !
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Good for you. You will be amazed at the change in sound after the new heads go on. Mine make about half the noise they used to make although it still sounds like small spoons taping (lightly) on china plates. :D
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I remember Bruno advised that valves should close up NO MORE THAN .001 in 3000 miles. So you aren't as desperate as LRB who was under 700 miles!! or worse...but only on one side. I guess just because it's a problem only on one side is a moot issue! There are serious problems lurking.
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Are you going to get your old parts back ?
Just curious about posting pictures of the worn out parts.
When I had my 'topend' done on both of my cylinder heads, it was amazing how worn all four valves were, that was at 47,000 miles.
It is something to look out for in the '81-'82 model year bikes, even if they don't have high mileage !
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Congratulations, Sue. I am glad that was caught in time! Too bad about your heads being in such poor shape.
It was nice getting that concise feedback from Ted.
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Ted will send back the old parts so I will be able to post them. So what's the consensus........does the cylinder need any sealant (thin, thin hylomar) at the Block end or NOT?? Or is it such a pain to be so precise in putting on the sealant, that one is better without it? I'll ask Ted Porter.
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I use the Hylomar, some use 3-Bond, some use RTV, etc...
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Ted has replied that he doesn't like Hylomar but will send the stuff he likes along in the box with the other necessary parts to put it all back together. I'll let you know what it is when I get it.
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Sue
When are you expecting the heads back?
And what was the cost of the rebuild?
How far in advance did you have to schedule the work?
Give us all the gory details, please.
Troy
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I will. Sounds like the heads are done now. Ted received them Dec 4th but I did send a note along with them saying I was in the depths of winter so no huge rush. Then I found out I would need LRB up and running for early Spring so I sent him another note explaining that I didn't have quite the same time on my hands as I had. So he got right at them. I'll have to let you know about cost. I expect the heads to arrive pretty soon now. Keep ya posted!
BTW, Ted is very very good at replying to emails which is great given he must be tired at night like most others. he sounds very nice....along the lines of a Rick Jones or Oak..always willing to help.
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Here's another email from Ted and I'm getting more and more depressed. I am wondering if I should try harder to find out who might have perpetrated such poor work so that no one else falls prey to it. :o >:( I know my PO didn't do it as she had all work done by someone else.
AAArgh!
Here's what Ted says:
I fitted your exhaust valve guides today, tomorrow I will try to get them finished. The guide bores were in poor shape from the previous valve job. I had to install the maximum oversize guide that is available. The bores were not very round, but I think they will be OK. I tried to machine them as round as I could but still keep the interference fit that I needed. If these guides fail, special custom oversize guides will have to be made. Whoever worked on these heads previously really made a mess.
I'll let you know when they are ready to come home.
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Sue, remind me: how many miles on LRB? I only have 55,000 on the Black Freighter so I have my fingers crossed that nobody has been in there! I'm afraid to hear what the work costs on yours.... not as afraid as you, probably.
When he's done that bike should be good for a really long time!
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Sue, one thing is certain, you will be very satisfied with the lrb's performance, once you get the heads mounted and the bike running.
greetings from a cold and windy north (20-30 mph winds and a temp of 35 degrees F)
trolle
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Cost is $587.15 including top end gaskets and sealant but NOT shipping. Pretty fair I'd say. So for me it took 2 months from Dec. 4 to Feb 4 more or less. Valve work that was no good done on LRB in 1995 at 34,000 miles and NOW again by Ted at 87,000 miles. Other than ONE exhaust valve closing up below 1000 miles interval, the bike exhibited no running problems...even gas mileage was peak as per 1982 brochure figures for consumption. So check those valves for diagnostic purposes!
I just hope I've read enough and my friend is knowledgeable enough to get everything back together properly!
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Another tidbit or two from Ted Porter:
"PLease note it is important to heat cycle the heads once, then allow to cool and re-torque the heads (25 ft lbs max) and re-adjust the valves before riding. Check the valves often during the first 500-600 miles, they may close up until they seat in.
There is no need to put any oil on the heads. Your rockers will oil quickly and don't need any pre-lube unless you have washed them and they are completely dry.
You can start the engine and bring it to operating temperature without riding it by holding it at 4000RPM for a minute then shutting off the engine and allowing it to cool with a fan on it which is very effective. It will be ready for a re-torque in less than an hour.
Or you can do it the slower way which is take the bike for a ride, then bring it back and let it cool overnight, then do your re-torque and adjust. Either way is fine, I do it a little more efficiently because my customers are paying by the hour:-)
The idea is to let the parts heat up and expand, then cool down and contract. In this process, the head bolts often loosen, and the valves often tighten. You want to heat cycle it one time, re-torque and re-adjust your valves.
Don't exceed 25 ft lbs on your head torque."
I think that is all the info on this for now. I will of course be telling or asking ya when the work starts on reassembly soon. Heads haven't arrived by UPS yet. UPS seems reasonable choice of carrier. Let them box them up in two separate boxes for each cylinder and then those two boxes in one bigger box; all crevasses filled with packing!
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Sue, if you check the Airheads.org site you can probably find a way to purchase Oak's Top End Manual which covers stuff like that, though I would go with what Ted specifically said on things since he did the work. I don't have the manual, but I'll probably buy one before I do that work.
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Good idea Ed. I would like an entire Library of Oak's tech articles and they can be purchased.
I am wondering right off the bat whether it will be bad to put the bike back together and maybe not DO the heat cycle thing right away because the bike is in a heated basement recroom and it's winter outside! We could get it back to a garage setting though if absolutely necessary.
Do you think I can delay the heat cycle for awhile? Should I or should I NOT torque things up if this is the case but leave things just bolted in place lightly???? Probably one of my more assinine questions. :-[ :-[
I am too :-[ to ask Ted P. I gotta be starting to bother him about now. :-/
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Sue,
I would put the bike together now, and then when the conditions outside are favorable for riding, take it out for a ride.
When I had my heads done, I installed the heads torqued it down, set the valves, and rode it for about a week back and forth to work ( 130 miles), then retorqued the heads, and reset the valve clearances.
As long as you don't take off on a cross country trip, and then get around to it in 3-4,00 miles, you aren't going to have any problems.
I didn't notice any difference in engine performance, after having the work done.
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Here is a link to 2 photos showing the condition of the valve seats and valve keepers. You will notice that the grooves where the collett goes at the end of the valve stem are almost sharpened to a knife point and thus very weak. They could have given out very soon and the whole valve would have been going "boing"!!
http://my.fotopic.net/collection/01459975/
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All I got was a login page...
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Same here...I guess we have to register to see her pics. :-[
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Lucky escape Sue, because having a valve drop can be bloody expensive. A a dropped valve on my old 'company' R100 trashed the engine and scared the crap out of me when the motor to seize accelerating way from a set of lights at about 30mph.
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Please try again...the photo album had to be approved so there was a delay: Try this:
http://sue5762.fotopic.net/c1459975.html
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Good that worked OK. See those knife-edged keeper grooves on the one valve stem end??? :o
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Damn, gal! You WERE just a few miles away from dropping that one!!! I have had that happen in a 302 Ford, and luckily the piston smacked it and "tweaked" the stem a couple thou so that it stayed up in the guide... I guess the "Force must be withg you" and you caught it just in time. I have never heard any complaints about this end of the valve wearing out before. Was this due to the previous work?
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WOW! [smiley=shocked2.gif]
Makes me want to pull the heads & check mine.
Maybe when I try to fix my weeping pushrod tube seals.
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The only thing we all have to go on is Ted Porter's comment that the valve material was very poor as was the workmanship that went into the last valve job. Boy that must be soft material on those valve keeper grooves. Now, the intake valves must have been fine...I am totally trusting Ted on this. It's kinda odd that in all of my reading I have never been aware of keeper grooves and wear that gets to a knife-edge. Lots of talk about plastic deformation and recession and heat and wear..just not at this end of the valve.
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Do ya think I was just a whisker away from winning the trophy from Joan's Blueberry valve grief photos????? I shoulda' been dusting off a spot on the shelf me thinks!!
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Sue,
Did you happen to take any photos of the valve face, where the valve contacts the seat ?
I was kind of curious about that, as when I had my 'top end' done on my heads, the valve face was excessively worn, but no visible wear could be seen on the valve seats.
Like the others have posted, got lucky this time!!!!!!
Is this just on the '81 and 82 model year bikes, or is it problematic with earlier and later year bikes as well ?
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I would also like to see the valve head, the ones on my '81 R100 were almost razor thin. Plus, the seats look like you had a little troll with a wee jackhammer living in your cylinder...
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Wow Sue! You are one lucky gal! ;)
Laws yesh!
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I'll take more pics for you...... speaking from my own ignorance and untrained eyes, the valve edge on the worst valve are NOT skinny thin but is thinner than the other exhaust valve.
I'll return....in a moment or two.
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Let's try that URL again as I have taken more pics. I hope I have taken what you guys want to check out.
My questions are: is what you see pretty standard wear and is there anything odd about the keepers wearing so thin? Is there something odd about the bike running very well except that I kept having to set clearances on only one exhaust valve?? The diagnosis of "too much closing-up in too little mileage" led me to haul the bike off the road and get the work done by a fellow who knows R65's.
Is the melted metal look (looks like flowing plastic!) on the valve seat something that Ted produced when removing the seat or is that damage too? There is no way I would think that the valve could'a ever seated in those seats and not leaked like a sieve!
Here's more photos in the same galley I set up:
http://my.fotopic.net/collection/01459975/
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Sorry..try this:
http://www.sue5762.fotopic.net/c1459975.html
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Another thought:
Looking at each valve now. The one with the very knife-edge keeper grooves is the one with the worst burnt mottling on the valve face..part that sits on the seat. The other side of the valve face is darker that the other valve and it's edges are NOT as knife-edged..what's with that?
The other valve has "some" edges to the keeper grooves; more of a knife edge on the valve HEAD and a lighter brown on the part that hits the piston. The "Valve face that sits in the valve seat is evenly coloured and not mottled which I'm thinking shows that there were no leaks or as much leaking anyway :-/
What conclusions do you all reach? What do we learn here?
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Do ya think I was just a whisker away from winning the trophy from Joan's Blueberry valve grief photos????? I shoulda' been dusting off a spot on the shelf me thinks!!
[size=12]Darn tootin'! Very fortunate LRB indeed! [/size]
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Your valve faces, are in a lot better shape than mine were, in the first picture of your valve, all I had left was the thin band that is illuminated, the rest had 'flowed' toward the valve stem.
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Your valve faces, are in a lot better shape than mine were, in the first picture of your valve, all I had left was the thin band that is illuminated, the rest had 'flowed' toward the valve stem.
[size=12]What he said, iirc it's called Valve Face Plastic Deformation.
VFPD. Now THAT'S a dirty word. :P [/size]
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It's a good thing you didn't take LRB on the trip you had planned, as it may have turned into a nightmare !!
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Hey Sue, I think Ted Porter is talking about your valves on the Airlist:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24027522@N04/?saved=1
or
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2388%2F2282843874_a946fe4daa_m.jpg&hash=ef7fabda5e27146ecebe91a57d1d750e896a4506)
I wonder if your aftermarket one piece valves experienced the plastic valve deformation.
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That is a freekin' scary picture!! :o
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Ted says BMW used two different materials to make their valves for a good reason. I believe him.
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I don't know if the valve on the right of Ted Porter's picture above is my valve but it is exactly the same condition!! I will probably take the valve to the MOA and to the Airheads tent when I go this summer so all the airheads can oogle it!
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Wow Sue! That's scary. I've been slack in checking out the Tech stuff lately and I just found this.
I'm glad you posted this. I'm going to take my bike in to the local BMW shop (I got a $1500 gift certificate from the local BMW shop from work at our annual Christmas Dinner for my 15 year anniversary [smiley=grin.gif] - ain't that cool?!? )
One of the things I thought I'd better do is have them take the heads off and have the valves sent out and have the new ones put in. While I've got the money to do it, I'd better go ahead and do it. Now I know where to have them sent. :) I like Ted Porter. I got my new mufflers from him.
Plus I'll have them do a complete check up and service. Might as well. Then I'll know exactly what's up with the things that I just don't have time to do (I don't have a wife who will cook and clean for me, or a husband for that matter, while I work on the bike :o )
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Golly, Sue, I just saw the pictures of the bad valve for the first time.
All I can say is, I hope those were not Black Diamond exhaust valves. That is what I had Bob Grauer (408 248 9732 San Francisco) install for my exhaust valves (purchased from Bob's).
We used factory R60 intake valves.
Mine was a bit customized as I upgraded from the stock 7mm stem valves to 8mm stems.
I am pretty sure the '80 on R65's had 8mm stems all around.
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Gosh Rob I am pretty darn sure that my old valves are NOT Black Diamond. If I remember correctly, Ted Porter liked Black Diamond valves when he worked at Bob's BMW on the east coast. Apologies if I am wrong here but when Ted worked with Bob didn't he support Black Diamond. Anyway no worries for you Rob on that score. I don't know what valves Ted uses now.
So yesterday, my friend and I completed assembly [smiley=clap.gif]. The first day a week ago it took quite a long time to clean things such as the mating faces and the piston head so we'd be ready for assembly. Just like many jobs, it is the prep work that takes the time. Anyway, yesterday was NOT a snow day so on went the cylinders and heads. We compressed the rings carefully by hand; both of us working at it with one holding the piston and the other gently easy the cylinder inwards. I was able to aid the compression job by gently pushing in on each ring with the edge of a credit card. All went well. The ONLY odd thing was the central stud that holds the valve cover on with that shiny acorn nut...you know the one..the one people strip out the most. Anyway the two studs which Ted had removed of course needed to go back in and they were different lengths. I read about this in my readings and I may just get a longer stud so there is at least 4 threads left for the acorn nut and washer. That stud has threads on both ends naturally and should be red loctited into the cylinder head and a very, very light snug on the acorn nut side. If I need to turn out that stud a bit to get the 4 threads I need, I don't see how even red loctite can keep it from breaking free. I'd rather have it turned right in all the way.
So what did I learn from this episode of mechanics? One, assembly and disassembly are fairly straight forward after you read all you can from the internet sources like Snowbum. Here is some of the tricky stuff:
1. The big 0 ring shouldn't be oiled and put on the cylinder block until you are ready to assemble as it swells. Not good.
2. The sealant if you use it should be ultra thinly spread on both sides (block and cylinder) preferably using your finger. Ted Porter used a Permatex product...can't remember now.
3. The gasket on the outside of the cylinder block must be put on with writing facing out or else it will partially cover the holes for the pushrods.
4. There is a punch mark that is very, very small on the top of the pillow blocks for the rocker assembly. Make sure that punch mark IS on top and ALSO facing outwards!
5. There is an inside oiling hole inside the rocker assemble tower? and it should be facing UP on the top tower. This is vital as this is where oil needs to get through.
6. The stud for the valve cover needs to be red loctited in.
7. Don't need a lot of oil for assembly...called a dry assembly as just a film of oil is necessary.
8. Work fairly quickly once assembly is started and get the torquing done all in one session. Not hard as things go fairly quickly. Only stumbling block is the compression of the rings.
9. Make sure you get the ring gaps aligned as per some readings on the matter. Seems impt. not to have gaps aligned on a thrust surface something-er-other. Just get advice on recommended alignments!
10. Oil inside new pushrod seals and silicone or oil outside surface for ease of seating them in their holes in the block.
11. Watch that the little 0 rings (oiled) are not displaced during assembly..small chance.
12. One or the other of the pushrod seals may need a wee helping hand to get started into their holes They will tend to "cock" the cylinder slightly out from the bottom at first. This all gets straightened out when carefully torquing everything up. Just be aware that the bottom is going to be cocked out to begin with.
13. Torque up the nuts in steps just like our owners manual says. (11, 18 then final 25 foot pounds) DO NOT EXCEED 25 ft. lbs.!!
14. From Oak: ride 40 miles or so then re-torque and reset the valve clearances. Then keep an eye on things with another periodic check. The idea is that the engine needs one heat cycle; then retorque and set things again. Oak says things can change pretty dramatically at first. DO NOT allow the engine to cool down in between this first 40 mile or so ride....in other words go shopping another time! Make sure the engine is cooled down..let it sit overnight for instance.
Think that pretty well empties my brain! If I have another learned gem I'll pass it along later. Hope this helps someone as untechnical as me!!
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Oh by the way, my friend and I turned the engine over first using the back wheel then with the starter motor and nothing blew up, scrapped or moaned. :o [smiley=beerchug.gif] So LRB sits over at my friend's home in a nice rec room/pub waiting until the snow leaves..fat chance right now..still have plenty on the ground. My F650GS single has left the Brrrm Closet and is getting a safety and valve check for the new owner and will be delivered to said new owner soon. Gone! Sniff. New twin F650GS won't be here until late April, early May.
Next job with LRB will be to perform some tests I read about to ascertain how healthy his transmission is!
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I think that this thread, or at least Sue's write-up would be a candidate for the tech info section !
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14. From Oak: ride 40 miles or so then re-torque and reset the valve clearances. Then keep an eye on things with another periodic check. The idea is that the engine needs one heat cycle; then retorque and set things again. Oak says things can change pretty dramatically at first. DO NOT allow the engine to cool down in between this first 40 mile or so ride....in other words go shopping another time! Make sure the engine is cooled down..let it sit overnight for instance.
I am confused on this point.
After the initial 40 mile heat cycle, retorque while still hot.
After the next heat-cycle-check, let the engine cool down before checking.
Am I understanding this correctly?
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Rob...something is amiss..you are right. Let me check that out. My tech books are over at my friends. I THINK that the bike needs to cool down completely BEFORE re-torquing and resetting valves. Yeah..we never set valves when hot do we! I had another senior's moment! ::)
Ride 40 miles. Let bike cool. THEN do the retorquing and valve setting. SORRY!!! :o
Ahh...that "thingy" word...a big typo...I meant that the pushrod seals will keep the cylinder pushed out from the bottom at first..cocked out until they seat when torqued down.
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Actually a point (of contention, somewhat) came up on Boxerworks a while back when Duane announced to the world that you could adjust your valves HOT, as it didn't really matter. The gap would be the same at both extremes of temperature.
It is just more convienient to do it when the parts are cold.
But, of course, adjusting valves is not what we are really talking about here.
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Sue,
I commend you for taking on that job. Wow! I sure don't have the time or place to do it. I think if I weren't working I would try to do it though, following your great suggestions.
I don't remember reading it, maybe you wrote about it, but what was it that got you to take care of this? Were the valves closing up on you too fast? I'd better check mine tomorrow.
I met Ted Porter at the rally in Quincy where I bought the new mufflers from him. Great guy. He's not too far from me. Maybe 3 hours away, so it's not that close either. I'm glad to hear about your good experience with him too.
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Melena.....one exhaust valve, the one on the left side was closing very fast. I'm talking here 300 miles say. Anytime I checked it had less clearance. I am betting NOW that it was losing its set clearance immediately after I would have buttoned things upafter setting the valves. Looking at the keeper grooves on the valve from that side there was so much "slop" "Play"?? that there would be no way to sustain a setting. Am I correct in saying this fellows??
So, we check valves as a diagnostic tool. Lose .001 in 3000 miles is OK. Keep checking them if you see that this isn't the case.
If Justin or Rob choose to put the tips on this job in the tech section, someone needs to fix my boo boos! Rob's point is stunningly interesting from Duane!!!! If a lock nut is tight on a valve, I suppose one must wonder just how much the metals involved could expand/contract with heating/cooling cycle to change the clearance dramatically. Hmmmm. :-/
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I think that you might be mis-understanding Oak's point. My interpretation, and what I have heard from other sources, is that you want the engine to get hot, and
then cool down WHEN IT IS IN YOUR GARAGE or wherever you work on the bike, as the clearances will change alot during that first heating/cooling cycle.
You want the bike to be where you are going to work on it and do the head torque and valve check after the bike has cooled off overnight, before you restart the engine a 2nd time. This way, if things have REALLY drastically changed, you won't run the risk of damaging anything, oil leaks, etc. the 2nd time your start and run the bike.
If you go ride the bike to the mall, shop for an hour or two, ride to the hardware store, stop for 20 minutes, ride to the ice cream shop, and then back home, you are subjecting the bike's engine to multiple heating/cooling cycles, which is what they are telling you to NOT do on that first ride/cruise.
The specification of the torque values from BMW are for a cold engine. I would not try to torque the heads to those specs when they are hot, not to mention
avoiding burned fingers ! :o
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I don't think I would torque the heads while they are hot.
I don't know why (I am not a mechanic), but I agree with nhmaf.
And I doubt I will ever find myself in the place where I would need to adjust my valves while hot.
When my left exhaust valve began closing up rapidly, I might have been tempted to adjust it at the rest stop where my bike would not idle, but the bike "ran fine" as it was, so I continued to my destination (~100 miles) and adjusted them the next morning.
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I think NHMAF has the idea. From what I have done on other head replacements on air & water cooled engines was to follow a procedure where everything got buttoned up, torqued and run up to full operating temperature, kept there for a while, allowed to cool completely and re torqued. It's a pretty standard method used throughout engine rebuilding. I love the click of a torque wrench in the morning!
rich
Excellent how to Sue [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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I used to have a car on which you were supposed to adjust the valves when hot. That sucked.
Regarding Duane's point, I suspect you could have a well running bike if you adjusted the valves hot, but I do think there would be a measurable difference in the clearances between hot and cold. That is easy enough for anybody to check of course, but I'm not going to do it. ;D
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Thanks for all the clarifications. I will be retorquing and valve resetting when the bike is cold having ridden back home 40 miles from where the bike is stored now. Of course that won't be for awhile as we just got a pile of new snow and a good 4 feet at least sits in the piles and the stuff that hasn't been blown or shovelled is a foot at least. I ain't going ANY WHERE!! >:(
The jobs I will be doing while the bike is still warm is changing all the fluids!
nhmaf...did you get hammered on that last snow storm Saturday???