The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Bob_Roller on October 31, 2007, 02:21:43 PM
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Well I finally got my carbs balanced, the method of balancing them that my co-worker that runs a BMW shop out of garage recommended.
Well his method worked great, but it seems like I might have a problem with the right carb mixture seat, but it runs great.
Now to my transmission problem.
At first, the lowest gear I had was 2 nd, no neutral or first gear, I rode it around the neighborhood for about 3 miles, and then finally I could get neutral and 1 st gear.
I took it out onto a street with a 45 mph sprrd limit, and the trans shifted up to 5 th gear no problem, when I came up to a stop light after about a mile, all I could down shift to was 4 th.
Rode it about 2 miles back home shifting all the time, and still all I have is 4 th and 5 th.
I called the shop in San Diego that did the overhaul, and the mechanic that over hauled the trans, said that it was the first time he has heard anything like this.
He told me to bring the transmission back and he'll open it up to see what's wrong.
I'm trying to avoid a drive back to San Diego.
Anybody heard any problems like this before ?
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Here's an update of what Ihave.
I found the left footrest 'drooped' when I re-installed and tightened it.
It was restricting the travel of the foot shifter lever.
I can rock the rear wheel with the bike on the centerstand, and shift up to 5th and back down to 1st.
Start the engine, and start moving, and I can shift all the way up to 5th gear, but I can only downshift to 4th and no lower.
A rather perplexing problem !!!
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I've contacted Oak Okleshen of Airheads BMW club fame, from what I've told him, he is convinced that there is a problem with the transmission.
I also got in touch with the owner of the shop the did the refurbishment of the clutch and pressure plates, and he walked me through a couple of trouble shooting steps, and pretty much confirmed that the clutch is fully releasing.
There's an independent BMW / Moto Guzzi shop a few doors away from the clutch shop. The clutch shop owner went over there and told the 2 brothers that run the shop what I had, and they both said that it most likely was related to the shifter pawl spring.
Either broken, not very likely but not impossible either, as I have all of the old parts, and the spring was replaced. Or possibly somehow dislodged during re-assembly. Or maybe not installed at all !!!!
I went to the local independent shop here in Mesa, AZ., ( not the co-worker that I posted about), and they said it would be a minimum of 4 hours labor at $89 per hour to open up the trans, and fix something simple like a dislodged part, and then close it up.
So at this point in time, I plan on removing the trans this weekend, and then take it back to the shop that did the overhaul in San Diego.
Good thing I'm on vacation, otherwise, I'd be a little more upset about this situation, than I am.
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I was also going to suggest the pawl spring - this sounds like some similar problems that
relate to that and/or a bent shifter fork. I wish you luck, and hopefully small repair bill !
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The only cost that will be incurred by me is fuel for the 800 mile trip ( figured about 18 gallons for a cost of about $55), and possibly one night's stay in a motel if necessary.
But at least I'm on vacation, so it's not too big of a deal.
If some part was left out during the overhaul, I'm going to try and get my cost refunded for having to go back out there again.
I'm not going to get ugly about it, but I will mention that I plan on contacting BMW MOA Owners News magazine, and also the monthly newsletter from the Airheads BMW club, Airmail . The company that did the work on the transmission ( Motor Works), advertises in both of those publications.
Also, Oak Okleshen has a technical column in the Airheads newsletter, said that this is not the first time he has heard of problems arising after Motor Works has overhauled an airhead transmission.
I guess it could be worse, it could have happened on some desolate desert road at night !!!
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Why not just ship the tranny and have them pay shipping? I know I would rather spend the day pulling the tranny then driving. If they are a good shop hopefully they will do something to make up for your trouble.
Ben
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I'm hesitant to ship, as I have had some incredibly bad experiences with UPS and FedEx Ground.
UPS destroyed a package of mine worth $1800, by leaving the package outside in a day long rain storm while I was at work.
It was a nightmare to get it settled, and took over a year to get the settlement.
FedEx ground lost a shipment that was warranty replacement Koni shock struts for my car, the shipment that was lost was the bad shocks going back to Koni. So they didn't get the bad shocks in the required time frame, so my credit card was charged the manufacturer's prices for the struts plus shipping costs, and that came out to over $600. That took 7 month's to get cleared up.
I'm almost at my wits end, I emailed Oak Okleshen today about what I had, and he is still convinced it's a clutch problem.
So here is my plan, I'm going to remove the transmission and clutch assemblies, and see if by chance I did something wrong during reassembly, or if I see something obviously wrong with the clutch. If not then take the transmission back to the shop that did the trans overhaul, also take the clutch and pressure plates back to the shop that did the work on them. They are only about 2 blocks apart.
Hopefully one of the shops will find a problem.
If nothing is found by these shops, my only logical course would be to replace the clutch disc and pressure plates with OEM parts.
This has gotten to the point that it's getting ridiculous.
I have to say that at this point in time I regret my decision to do an overhaul on the trans, and have the clutch reworked.
It seemed like a good idea to get it done before any catastrophic failures happened, as the bike has 80,000 miles on it.
I'm beginning to question if this bike is really worth the effort and expense anymore.
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Bob, sounds a lot like the symptoms I have head described of a broken pawl spring. The guy that rebuilt mine always replaces them AND the neutral switch - just because. I doubt there is anything your clutch could be contributing to this as you can easily upshift without touching the clutch Maybe make sure the allen bolt that holds the little shift lever to the tranny is tight and the lever has no burrs where it mates up with whatever it mates with inside the tranny. Seems I remember somebody on boxerworks a long time ago with a shifting problem that turned out to be some sort of deformation on this part...
Personally, I bought a good used tranny and had my old one rebuilt (at leisure) to keep as a spare and think it would probably be a good idea for all Airhead owners to have a spare...
As far as effort and expense? Who knows... How much would the monthly payments be on a new one to replace it with? And, considering they are all now computer controlled plastic-fantastics factor in what your repair costs might be once your warranty runs out... I guess if one had enough scratch to buy a new bike every three years so it was always under warranty - that would be the way to go! But you would be out $300-$400 every 6000 miles for the dealer service or they might weasel about warranty repairs. Bmw of Ft. Worth told the kid that about all the maintenance he could do without voiding the warranty was oil changes...
Every time I think about buying a spanking new R1200RT I think about the dealer getting his claws in me and my mind gets "right" very quickly!
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Justin
I'll check that tomorrow morning before I 'attack' the trans removal.
If you can't tell, I'm quite frustrated about this situation, I'm not quite sure why, as I'm usually pretty easy going with problems on the bikes.
I've got another bike, so it's not like I'm without one.
I think it's probably that I only want to do something once, and it is a bit of a job to pull the trans.
The other thing is that I paid a good sum to get these assemblies rebuilt, by shops that claim to do the best work around, well at least at this point in time, unless I did something wrong on reinstallation, one of them didn't live up to their claims.
To be continued...................................................................................
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Bob, trust me, I understand completely, BTDT!! I re-read your posts and am a bit confused. Are you saying that right now you can shift between 4th and 5th gear at will with no problems and just can't get it to downshift lower than 4th or did it start that way and you are now stuck in just one gear? If you can shift between the two then I would think that would probably eliminate the pawl spring as my understanding is that if it breaks you're stuck in whatever gear you were in when it gave up the ghost... When you move the lever by hand can you feel it "working" anything inside the box or is it pretty much smooth in both directions?
Looking at the parts listing there is a shift fork for 5th and another that covers 3d and 4th. I wish I knew more about transmissions, I am going to attempt to do my own the next time I have one go out and maybe afterwards I'll have more insight into them...
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Justin
Right now, if I rock the rear wheel and get the transmission into neutral, I can start up the bike, put it in 1st gear take off and shift up to 5th gear no problem.
When I try to downshift, about all I can get to is 4th gear.
I can shift between 4th and 5th gear no problem in either direction.
Every once in a while, I can get down to 3rd, about once out of 30-40 shifts while moving.
No matter what, I need to remove the transmission, and go from there.
I posted this on Boxerworks, and Duane Ausherman posted about his method of testing the transmission out of the bike, I'm going to try that tomorrow first thing after getting it out.
And procede from there.
Any idea what kind of a wear pattern to look for on the clutch disc or pressure plates, for a dragging clutch ?
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Really about the only wear to be normally seen (unless you let a disc get down to the rivets) is some grooving, heat checks (little surface cracks), and hot/blue spots.
So, you can actually sorta shift it, with the engine off you can rock it and get it down to 1st gear, shift up through the gears fine, between 4th and 5th fine, but gotta shut off to get it back down to 1st OR into neutral. That is a strange one. When you pull in the clutch does it indeed disengage?
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The pawl spring busted on mine years back when I was in 2nd gear. I was unable to shift in either direction. The mechanic who later replaced it said tipping the bike on its side will realign the broken parts of the spring and allow a shift to a higher gear (or lower). I don't know if this helpful, but I thought it worth mentioning as it seems it might serve as a diagnostic as to whether it is the spring that is possibly the source of the problem.
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Justin
I called the shop that refurbished the clutch, and the owner told me to get the bike on the street, start it, and put it in 1st gear and with the clutch lever pulled in rev the engine up.
He said if the clutch was dragging the bike should try to move, and also after about a minute or so of doing this, if the clutch was dragging, you should be smelling that over heated 'brake' smell.
I did this for 2 minutes, and the bike didn't move and no overheated lining smell.
With the engine shut down, transmission in gear, I can pull the clutch lever in, and push the bike like it is in neutral, no extra effort required.
The first indication that I had a problem, was after I installed the clutch and transmission back in May.
I could not get the proper clutch free play, I had the adjuster bolt at the transmission all the way in, and the cable adjuster at the lever at it's maximum, and I had about 10 mm free-play at the lever.
I went to NAPA and got an adjustment bolt for the transmission that was about 4-5 threads longer, and then I could get the clutch free-play adjusted correctly.
Yesterday I readjusted the clutch cable to where there was minimal free-play and no change at all.
I guess this will teach me to have 2 major components redone at the same time !!
I'm going to use Duane Aushermans method of testing the transmission out of the bike that he's got on his website, it's pretty simple and straight forward.
If it passes that test, I'm tempted to order OEM pressure plates and clutch disc, and go from there.
I guess I'll have to see what I find when I get it apart.
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I've got the transmission and clutch out of the bike.
Not too bad of a time 1 hour 35 minutes, I should be getting good at it !!!
Here's what I found on the clutch disc, at best there is 10% contact if the clutch face to the pressure plates, and that is both sides.
Also there are about 3 blue / brown spots on the pressure plates, like an over heated area.
I'm going to put the swing arm and wheel back on so I can move the bike around in the garage, seeing it's going to be sitting for a while.
Next is to test the transmission with Duane Aushermans method from Boxerworks forum.
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Well it's all finally sorted out !!!
I took the transmission and clutch /pressure plates to a local independent BMW shop Juda Motorsports in Mesa , AZ.
Here's what was found : the technician used the same method the Duane Ausherman suggests on his website link can be found on Boxerworks.
While rotating the input shaft, shifting up and down though the gears, well you could up shift to 5 th gear, but only downshift to 4th gear.
Great at least it can be duplicated !!
The shifter lever would not come back, it would stick.
The whole problem was the shift lever shaft seal was put in waaaaay crooked, almost 1/8 th of an inch off, and it was causing the shifter shaft to bind and hang up.
Repositioned the seal, and no shifting problem.
Also the input shaft seal was also put in crooked, and would have caused a leak not too far down the road.
That was straightened out as well.
Now for the pressure plates, the plates are not machined well at all.
There are 3 raised machined areas on the forward plate, using a depth mic, there was .006 in. variation on one and .010 in. on the other.
Also a straight edge put across both plates showed it was machined in a cone shape the outer edges were the highest, and the inner edge was the lowest there was approximately .010 in. difference across the face of the plates.
I'm going to call the clutch shop Monday morning and see what kind of settlement I can get out of them.
So now I get to order new parts, looks like about $ 365 in parts will get me back on the road again.
Well at least I'm not in the dark on what the problem is.
I can say that I don't recommend the clutch and pressure plate rebuild, it may have been one of those Monday or Friday jobs that went wrong, all I know is I won't do it again.
So my advice is stay away from Southland Clutch in National City , CA.
I would also not recommend doing business with Motor Works in National City , CA. as well, they did the overhaul on the transmission.
Just my opinion based on the results that I had, I'm sure there are plenty of satisfied customers of theirs, but I'm not one of them !!!
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Bob, that is almost great news - almost because apparently supposed "regarded" shops have such poor QC. that crooked seal makes a lot of sense and seems that I now remember somebody had posted about shifting issues on boxerworks that also turned out to be the seal. I think I remember in that case it was not installed deep enough, or something.
My mind is having a hard time getting itself wrappped around a "professional" shop installing two seals crooked on the same job! I mean, geeze! Do they have the "apprentice" or floor sweeper do the "mundane" parts of the rebuild? And as far as your clutch components being not machined true I can't think of much of an excuse for that either. Let us know how both of these joints respond.
On the clutch parts, if your original intention had been to buy all new anyway then at least a full refund from them would seem reasonable, and better if it covered your travel expenses. I personally would probably put it back together and if the clutch engagement was smooth and controlled I would ride it. Eventually the clutch disc will "wear" into the two discs and might be happy for a long time. If the clutch goes south then you would have your refund to put toward the parts you had been planning on buying in the first place.
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Justin
I talked to the mechanic who did the overhaul on the transmission, and he said he's been doing them for about 15 years, so much for experience !!
On the clutch parts, I'm going to call the shop Monday morning and see what kind of a response I get, I plan on saying I'll ship the parts back to them for their inspection, with the understanding that they can remove the friction linings and cut the plates with a band saw, as far as I'm concerned, as long as I get them back.
If they play 'hardball', I plan on contesting the charges with the credit card company that I used to pay for the rebuild.
It worked with Bike Bandit about 5 months ago !!
I also plan on contacting the shop that did the transmission overhaul ,and try to get some kind of a refund out of them as well, and again if they refuse. I'll just contest the charges with the credit card company, if possible, and make their existence as miserable as possible.
Worse case scenario I had planned on installing the clutch and pressure plates, as the R65 doesn't get taken too far from home, and I do this with understanding that it might only last 5-10,000 miles.
So this was a learning experience to say the least bit!!
Think I'll have another beer !!!!
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Good luck, keep us posted...
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Ouch. Glad you found out what's going on, as that's usually the hard part, but sorry it is so much hassle, that's what I hate.
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It's a bit frustrating, but I learned a lesson get the work done locally if possible !!
I inquired about what the cost of rebuilding a transmission at their shop would be, and the cost was comparable to what I paid the shop in San Diego.
It's also amazing that when someone knows what to look for, it was a quick diagnosis and repair.
I may have taken the transmission back to the shop that did the overhaul, and they may have missed the seal problem completely, and then I would have been at a loss as to what to do then!
I think this emoticon would have summed it ! [smiley=rifle.gif]
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Just got off of the phone with both shops, and the transmission shop ( Motor Works ) agreed to refund the $43.50 shop labor charge that the local independent shop charged to check and repair the transmission, and they are sending me a new seal for the shifter shaft.
The clutch shop owner ( Southland Clutch ), told me to return the plates and clutch disc, and if he agrees with me, he'll refund the $200 that I was charged for the overhaul , or find a replacement for the parts
So it looks like things will work out after all but what a frustrating series of events !
[smiley=drowning.gif] [smiley=wall.gif] [smiley=steinigung.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=chairshot.gif] [smiley=furious3.gif] [smiley=shoot.gif] [smiley=smash.gif] [smiley=whip.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=flamethrowingsmiley.gif]
Do I at least get a prize for using the most emoticons in a single posting ??????????
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Hi Bob,
Yeah but I think msbuck gets the prize for the Largest emoticon. 8-)
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Gee Bob, you look like you're quite the tidal wave of mixed emotions, there...
Time for my 'nightcap'
[smiley=1drink.gif]
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I get really frustrated when 'supposed' overhauled or refurbished parts are bad, and complicates the troubleshooting process to solving a problem.
It happens also at work ,on Boeing 737's as well, you get the problem narrowed down to a component, replace it , and doesn't fix the problem.
You spend unnecessary time continuing the trouble shooting process, and it gets you nowhere.
Even more frustrating when you are working out of town, and it might take a day or two to get the parts to you, and that's not even factoring in the less than ideal weather or working conditions.
So it's a real 'sore spot' with me after 30 years in aviation !!!!!
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Just a quick update on my dealing with both companies, Motor Works has yet to send me a check for the labor charge let alone a new oil seal for the shifter shaft, and they don't return any calls, I am in the process of disputing the entire $630 charge, my justification is that I have about 20 hours of my time 'invested' in this problem in the form of labor, the labor rate at the local independent shop is $87, and removal and installation flat rate labor rate is 10 hours plus incidentals.
Southland Clutch has not returned any calls, has not issued a refund, or returned my parts, so I have disputed the $200 charge, and I am looking at filing a theft complaint with the National City, CA. police, for non-return of my parts, just to be an irritant to the owner.
To be continued..............................
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Damn...
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Bob
So Sorry to hear of your situation.
BBB is an option. Also Dept of Consumer Affairs (check for all applicable offices; as are city, county & state gov offices)
Also a call to local (where the businesses are located) Court Clerk for info on a Mechanics Lien. To put a lien on their property. This works sometimes, depending on the statutes there. As to what is required to show you are owed by the respondent.
Troy
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I just went through this process about 6 months ago regarding the merchant Bike Bandit about receiving the wrong brake rotors, and the merchant refusing to do anything about it, because it was outside of their 15 day return policy.
I filed a dispute with the credit card company Citibank on November 6, they contact the merchants financial institution, they file the complaint with the local Better Business Bureau, the BBB then contacts the merchant about the dispute, usually takes about 2 months to hear from the merchant directly.
I'm not too concerned, I already have a conditional refund for the charges already applied to my credit card account.
My motive right now is to make life a little more miserable for everybody involved, it's my twisted way to get some satisfaction at other people's expense.
Did I mention that I'm a sick S.O.B.?
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Maybe Bob, but it not for people like you who actually take the time to straighten issues out like you're doing, things would be a lot worse for the rest of us.
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Latest update on my dispute, Citibank sent me a letter stating they could not help me in this instance.
Their reason was that they do not dispute quality of work issues that were made out of my state of residence, and further than 100 miles from my residence.
So now I am left to deal with both of these merchants myself.
I called both of them, and the response from Southland clutch was they put it off to the side and forgot about it.
Motorworks excuse was the owner has been without a secretary for the last 5 months, and it was put on the side and was buried under paperwork.
I'm not feeling overly optimistic about a resolution to this in my favor.
So what have we learned today boys and girls ?
Before you have overhaul work done out of your area, contact your credit card issuing institution and inquire about disputing quality of work issues and it's limitations.
My suggestion have the work done locally if at all possible !!
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Damn, that's a bummer and I didn't know that about CC disputes... Maybe bad karma will come back and haunt them...
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Man, that IS a bummer, but it also sounds like a total 'cop-out' on the part of the CC company...
If one were to follow this through to its full extent, for example, then if one were to experience an unfortunate vehicle breakdown while on the way to, say, the BMWMOA rally, and the shop that towed your bike in to fix it did a poor job of towing the bike, scratched the paint, did a bad job of repairing the damage, and forced you to stay overnight in a motel in town, which rendered terrible service, unhygienic rooms with terrible food, all of which you put onto your credit card as you didn't have the cash on hand for all of this, and you're basically out of luck for trying to raise any "quality of service" disputes with them and are stuck with it all. Hmmm.
Puts a new twist on the old "Don't leave home without it" marketing phrase, doesn't it.... should really be "Don't use it unless you're already completely desperate/totally screwed", which is a little closer to my philosophy regarding credit cards - though they have become a necessary evil, haven't they ?
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Finally recieved my parts , and a check for a full refund from Southland Clutch.
Only took 3 months to get this settled !!
Now if the Better Business Bureau can get Motor Works to refund the labor charge , I'll be quite content.
I emailed Oak Okleshen about this problem again last Tuesday, and he told me to send an email to the president / editor for the Airheads Beemer Club in San Diego, their monthly news letter Airmail, is where I saw the advertisement for both of these businesses.
So I've got a little pressure on Mike Kelley the owner of Motor Works, if he doesn't provide a refund, it looks like they might refuse his advertising in the future.
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Well, Bob, I'm glad you have at least partial satisfaction. Hopefully you will get the rest before too long...
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Oak knows the why and wherefor for pretty well anything we would probably want to know about airheads and airhead techs. I figure just ask him in the future if he has heard any negative comments about anyone's possible choices for doing major work.
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Sue,
This was a hard lesson learned, after I contacted Oak about the problem I had back in October, he said he has had work come to him that Motor Works had 'overhauled', and his comment was that they have a reputation for not so good workmanship.
He doesn't think much about machining the pressure plate and ring on BMW motorcycles, there isn't much metal there to begin with, and now you're making it thinner after truing up the contact surfaces.
If the parts are not available anymore, it would be an option, but with plentiful parts available, it's just not worth it.
Take it from someone that's been there !
But now, I have an 'emergency' set of parts, just incase something goes wrong in the future, but I would be installing these parts with the knowledge that they have to come out within a couple of thousand miles or so.
But like Justin said in the opening comments in this thread, on the parts, they may just last a long time too.
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I recieved a telephone call from Mike Kelley the owner of Motor Works this morning, and he said he sent me a letter with a check and seal about 2-3 weeks ago, and it came back to him as 'ADRESSEE DECEASED'.
I contacted the local post office this morning, and through some foul-up on their part, my mail has been returned to the senders for about 2-3 weeks for the reason of being deceased.
Got that straightened out, the notification card that they showed me, had such horrible handwriting, I have no idea how they got my address out of the scribbled mess.
Anyway Mike Kelley said he would get the check back in the mail today, and I should have it by the end of the week.
It looks like the complaint to the Better Business Bureau was a motivating factor, because he didn't send the original check until he was notified by the 'BBB' about the complaint.
So it looks like it will all work out in the end, but my personal advice is to avoid doing any business with these two companies.
I'm sure they have plenty of satisfied customers, but I'm not among them !!!
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Congratulations on not being deceased. That would be sort of spooky.
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Like I think Mark Twain was quoted as saying 'the reports of my death have been greatly exagerated'.
But I do suspect the neighbors in all of this, as I've had 'issues' with neighbors and barking dogs all day long, and guests of theirs parking in front of my driveway, where I can't get a vehicle out to go to work at 5:20 am on weekends and holidays.
Also I've had mail tucked into the bars on the front door with 'Adressee Deceased' hand written, on and off for a couple of years.
I can't wait to retire, and get away from all the crap you have to put with in a major metropolitan area !!!
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Finally recieved my check and replacement seal from Motor Works !!
Interesting thing is, that I was sent a photocopy of the returned envelope that was marked 'DECEASED', and my middle name was used in the address, the only time I used my middle name, was on the Better Business Bureau complaint, that was made, 3 weeks after I was told the letter was originally mailed.
Here is a warning : don't do business with Motor Works, or Southland Clutch both located in National City, California, both advertise in the Airheads Beemer Club monthly newsletter Airmail, spread the word in the BMW motorcycle community, these are businesses to avoid at all costs.
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Don't worry... Did you get any of your old parts back from the clutch joint?
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I recieved my parts from Southland Clutch 2 weeks ago.
But after getting my last email from 'Oak Okleshen' the Airheads tech 'guru', I have lost all respect for the man, in his last email, after I informed him of the notification of the postal service snafu, he made the comment that I should be held liable for the bad mouthing remarks against Motor Works.
Personally 'Oak Okleshen' can kiss my a$$, as far as I'm concerned !!!
I also contacted the editor of the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America about possibly publishing a short excerpt of my experiences with these businesses, and he declined ( Oak Okleshen is a technical contributor to the BMW MOA as well! ) .
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Wow, congratulations on not being dead ! Maybe someone was trying to help you avoid income taxes ? ;)
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Don't even get me started on Federal Income Taxes !
I deleted my first reply on this, as after reading it, it was quite arrogant on my part !
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This was a valuable learning experience, and things did work out in the end.
But I am quite reluctant to have work done on components, if I can't do it myself !
This is the first vehicle that I have owned, that I have had major work done to, usually I get rid of them before work of this nature is required.