The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Sejati on December 10, 2019, 10:26:43 AM
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I have issue in the engine overheating.
I put oil stick with thermometer, and when it’s hot it shows more than 120 degC, up to 140 degC (pardon my metric system)... and the engine loosing its combustion and shut off, and can not be started again. Until became colder below 120 degC, and it can be started again.
It seems loosing it combustion or pressure at high temp oil, possibly stall valve, or jammed valve ?
It might be lack of lubrications due to oil thinning ?
Does anyone have this experience?
Anyone have suggestion of the correct engine oil brand and type ?
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140 C sump temperature sounds very hot for an air head. Two possible causes are retarded ignition timing and weak fuel mixture so they would be worth checking.
With oil temperatures that high you should be using a 20W50 oil as a minimum or 20W60 if you can find it.
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Were you in slow traffic for an extended period of time ??
It's common to see oil temps of 120 C during the hot season here, air temps of 41-49 C .
Never had an issue with the engine running in these conditions .
Follow Barry's recommendations, do you have any issues with poor fuel quality ??
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I think I have too lean fuel as well, last time I check I have white spark plug tips. What is the best way to increase fuel mixture ? By the pilot idle mix screw, or by throttle valve idle screw ? I think those only applied for idle setting. Any other setup I need to adjust ? The plunger needed position ?
In my case, I have a lot of traffic jams, and stop and go.
The phenomenon which I experienced, which engine seize to operated when it is hot, has anyone experience before?
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With oil temperatures that high you should be using a 20W50 oil as a minimum or 20W60 if you can find it.
I have set the idle timing only by feeling, rotating the bean can a bit, until it reaches around 1200-1300 rpm at idle. If I turn more it will increase the idle rpm, or turn clockwise will eventually lower the timing and shut off the engine.
For oil currently using 20w50, but I need to change it to better brand, I suppose. need the brand recommendation as well. Or I will try to fine 20w60 also. I see many oil here sold to specify Harley Davidson spec, is it any good to be used ?
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I think ignition timing is one cause of your overheating.
Please read up (Snowbum's site awaits you) on how to set timing and idle speeds.
Suffice it to say you are going aboout it backasswards. As a rule of thumb -
First set velave clearances
Second set timing
Third - balance carbs, set idle speed etc.
And, the external adjustments are for idle mixture only. Main jet mixute is set firstly by the size of the main jet itself and then secondly by the height of the needle valve. It might be very worth your while to check that all the internals of your carbs are present and are the stock sizes. One thing that will screw your mixture control right up is that there should be a large washer under the main jet - many people mistakenly throw this away thinking that a previous owner could not find the right size washer. The over sized washer is close to essential.
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To which I should have added. -
Check the bob weights for free and correct movement in the Beancan. If they are not moving freely the correct procedure is NOT to squirt boat loads of WD40 into the poor thing, takke it apart and lubricate with a high temperature grease (Silicon grease if you have it).
If the pivot posts for the bob weights are worn - buy an aftermarket beancann replacement, preferably one that has electronic advance and retard. I faced this decision relatively recently and decided that the day it would have taken me to make u new, oversized, hardened pivots, bore the bob weights and put all back together was better spent riding. I bought an Emerald Isle beancan and ICU and love them.
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Thanks Tony for this advice.
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I have done just now setting valve clearance. Found only slightly off setting, and then readjustment and retorque the nut.
After restart, seems the same issue of idling high rpm.
Next the timing setting.
So I had done replace the old bean can with Emerald Isle bean can and it’s new ICU, but issue remains.
First I use EI beancan, with old ICU, start okay, and max out at about 4000rpm before stalls. This is because no mechanical advance trigger.
Then I switch to EI ICU with advance selector. The bike only start with advanced idle setting, also idle at about 2000 rpm. If I turn the bean can clockwise to retard a bit, it won’t start, even with enrichment carbs. Only when start at advanced 2000rpm idle, then I can turn bean can clockwise and reduce idle to 1500rpm. But it won’t restart again.
I observe the flywheel OT mark is arrived early at about 45 degree before TDC. But piston and valves are doing okay in timing for open and close. I assume timing chain is okay. So I assume it is only the flywheel error marking.
I think I need to find strobe timing light for inspection.
Anything else maybe?
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One other thing, at the advanced setting with EI stuff, and it start at idle 2000 rpm, when I open throttle, it directly stall and shut off.
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Hello Sejati,
You wrote :
"I have done just now setting valve clearance. Found only slightly off setting, and then readjustment and retorque the nut.
After restart, seems the same issue of idling high rpm."
Of what nuts are you talking about ? The valve rocker play adjusting and locking nut ? Or the head holding nuts ?
If they are the valve adjusting one, the measurement has to be made once the nuts are secured because, otherwise, you may turn the screw a little during locking, making the adjustment invalid. If you refer to the cylinder head nuts, you have to set the valve lash AFTER torquing those nuts to the proper value.
Last but not least, set both carburetors for base setting before starting the bike :
Set the mixture screw to the base setting and set the idle screw also to the base setting. Generally, the mixture screw should be gently put to full close then opened a half turn and the idle screw should be set barely touching the tang and then a half to a turn more.
If your mixture screw is way off, this could explain the high idle. But this should have been addressed by a thorough carb cleaning and renewal if not done recently.
I'm not familiar with EI products, but at idle, the advance should be with the "S" or idle mark showing. It is near the OT mark but it is NOT the OT mark. Which is for top dead center mark. S mark means initial advance setting and Z mark means maximal advance setting to be reached above 2500/3000 RPM.
So you should set the bean can position to have the S mark stable in the window at idle and have the ICU set for 26° which is the maximal advance for our engines.
Hope this helps.
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Just a reminder EI ignitions physically retard the ignition from full advance to starting timing. Unless the can guess when the next trigger point is coming.
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Hello Sejati,
Of what nuts are you talking about ? The valve rocker play adjusting and locking nut ? Or the head holding nuts ?.
Dear George,
After torqing headnut, i adjust nut adjuster and torqing the locking nut. And after all dine, reconfirm the clearances for all valves.
I Will try to Reset carb setup, especially the mixture valve.
It is the one position inside the bowl, right ?
Thanks for your advice
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Just a reminder EI ignitions physically retard the ignition from full advance to starting timing. Unless the can guess when the next trigger point is coming.
Could you help to elaborate more on this ?
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The current confusion seems to stem from you trying to use timing to adjust the idle.
Stop doing that!
Also, a more reliable way of setting timing is to do so at around 3,500rpm and set to full advance - the idle timign will look after itself.
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Just a reminder EI ignitions physically retard the ignition from full advance to starting timing. Unless the can guess when the next trigger point is coming.
Could you help to elaborate more on this ?
I have no experience with emerald island ignition but other Eis I have used are set to trigger at full advance and wait for the required degrees to come up then trigger the spark. As the revs rise the ei triggers quicker until it triggers instantly at full advance.
If you think about it, if it triggered instantly at idle it would have to guess when the next trigger point was coming to be able to trigger the spark before that point to get the advance needed. It is why we still have advance weights in our bikes because they didn't have computers small enough to fit in an ei.
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It is why we still have advance weights in our bikes because they didn't have computers small enough to fit in an ei
There is a lot of stuff I don't pay much attention to, such as EI but It amazes me that the EI wouldn't sense the RPM by the speed of the trigger and advance or decrease accordingly with out relying on some sticky weights and old worn out springs...… I guess I gotta get my "Golden Book" of EI out and actually see how it does what it does.
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Retarding the ignition is so much simpler than calculating something in advance.
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Well, whatever the case, EI should have /has provided installation instructions for the can, and the electronic trigger.
I, for one, would start by using the instructions and see what it lead me trough. But I bet that putting the correct valve train lash, correct mixture valve and butterfly stop position will lead me near to a good idle and around the correct speed.
In my line of work, we have a motto : RTFM and apply it ....
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Well, whatever the case, EI should have /has provided installation instructions for the can, and the electronic trigger.
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I didn't get any instructions with mine. If I had I suspect that they would have been embarrassingly short.
1/. Remove your existing bean can and ICU
2/. Replace the above with the EI components
3/. Start bike and adjust timing.
Unfortunately the OP has done a rather good job of borking the entire process by
1/. Thinking that the idle mixture adjustment is the main jet adjustment
2/. Attempting to set idle speed by varying ignition timing.
3/. God knows what other beastly things.
The best thing the OP can do is either:
1/. Read snowbum and the helpful hints offered here by numerous people to return his settings to something approaching a reasonable start point.
2/. If unable to do 1 - pay someone who can.
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It is why we still have advance weights in our bikes because they didn't have computers small enough to fit in an ei.
Is was a poorly worded statement it applies to R65s.
This doesn't apply today because of advances in electronics in micro computers.
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It is why we still have advance weights in our bikes because they didn't have computers small enough to fit in an ei.
Actually, Bosch did make an ICU that was pin compatible with the one used by BMW Motorradd. , they just decided, with the infinite caution that BMW once used to have, that it was a bridge too far and might affect reliability.
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Well, whatever the case, EI should have /has provided installation instructions for the can, and the electronic trigger.
....
I didn't get any instructions with mine. If I had I suspect that they would have been embarrassingly short.
1/. Remove your existing bean can and ICU
2/. Replace the above with the EI components
3/. Start bike and adjust timing.
Unfortunately the OP has done a rather good job of borking the entire process by
1/. Thinking that the idle mixture adjustment is the main jet adjustment
2/. Attempting to set idle speed by varying ignition timing.
3/. God knows what other beastly things.
The best thing the OP can do is either:
1/. Read snowbum and the helpful hints offered here by numerous people to return his settings to something approaching a reasonable start point.
2/. If unable to do 1 - pay someone who can.
A great big AMEN to that
In other words Tony is spot on !!! ;D
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It is why we still have advance weights in our bikes because they didn't have computers small enough to fit in an ei
There is a lot of stuff I don't pay much attention to, such as EI but It amazes me that the EI wouldn't sense the RPM by the speed of the trigger and advance or decrease accordingly with out relying on some sticky weights and old worn out springs...… I guess I gotta get my "Golden Book" of EI out and actually see how it does what it does.
Skippyc thanks for poking my brain!
I get to thinking like a millennial at times. Even at my advanced state of antiquity (old as dirt) I get to thinking like we have always walked around with smart phones and had internet access as we roam the land.
I can remember when the a hand held calculator was a "very big deal" and that wouldn't have predated the design of that 1981 ignition by very much. In those days the computer to do what I think is child's play would have filled a room LOLOL.
I think I know as much as I ever did, but it is getting harder to remember where I filed the stuff ;D
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Thanks everyone for inputs....
Finally after spending the new year holiday, the timing setting is done. From start, idle and rev, is responding with confident. Revving to 4000 rpm, feels so easy.
Once again openned the Bing, adding quarter turns on the idle mixture, reduce needle jets height to 33mm, ensuring throttle valve fully shut closed. This the final setup I made.
Since flywheel marking is not at correct position, hence I marked alternator just to give a hint of TDC position, and using timing light to see the EI ICU working in advancing the firing position, from this alternator shaft.
Now I need to get one more day off, to test the setup on the road and feel the torque produces at upto 4000 rpm. And checking how’s the thermal issue will be.
Thanks!! :)
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Since flywheel marking is not at correct position, hence I marked alternator just to give a hint of TDC position, and using timing light to see the EI ICU working in advancing the firing position, from this alternator shaft.
Glad to hear you are making progress.
It is possible to put the flywheel on in a number of incorrect positions. It would have been so simple for BMW to incorporate a keyway to prevent that but they didn't.......
Your process of making the TDC position on the alternator is a good one - Next use a protractor to make a mark to set whatever you want your maximum advance to be and time your bike whilst holding it at least 3,500rpm.
Sadly you are going to have revisit the matter of your incorrectly timed flywheel. Another thing BBMW decided not to incorporate in our machines is a gearbox spigot bearing, the effect of this is that the system is reliant on the skill and care of the owner/mechanic in centering the flywheel.
Given that you are going to be taking the gearbox off and disassembling the clutchpack you should probably buy a clutch centering tool.
On the topic of tools to buy - if you do not already own them you will need a decent set of feeler gauges (for centring the swing arm when you put it back in after doing the flywheel, in addition to their traditional use with tappet clearance, a timing light and some vacuum gauges (for synchronising the carbs) You can easily make your own manometer for carb balance for pennies, but please read the instructions first.
Good luck
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Dear Tony,
Thanks for this input upfront, actually I still don't have confident level to deal with the gearbox unit and flywheel. It seems need more precision and special tools involved. Although I feel a bit difficult in changing from 1st to 2nd gear. But I'm just a weekend technician with limited tools.
I will put it aside for later, as first I will taste the fruit of this works, enjoying the ride on this upgraded engine from 650cc to 860cc. I feel a little bit stronger vibration, but I think it is still enjoyable.
As the summary from this project, the Siebenrock 860cc with EI Alpha ignition upgrade are good change parts. More justification to come after I put some mileage on it.
Cheers.. :)
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Dear Tony,
I feel a bit difficult in changing from 1st to 2nd gear.
upgraded engine from 650cc to 860cc. I feel a little bit stronger vibration, but I think it is still enjoyable.
Cheers.. :)
The gear changing should get better as you get used to it
I know it took me a while
But after I rebuilt the trans I understood why it was like that
I also had more vibration after installing a Big bore kit
I didn't like it so i took it off but I left the 37/11 final drive on it and loved the higher gearing even with the 650 bores