The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: badbmwbrad on August 17, 2019, 11:13:02 AM
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[size=14]This bike was just purchased by a friend from a used bike dealer. It has 30,000 miles. There were some cob webs found on it during inspection!
It's an exceptionally original, unmolested example which has BMW panniers, liners, tool kit and owner's manual.
Thanks to this forum, we were able to eliminate most of the engine vibration by torquing the engine's mounting fasteners to ~45 ft-lbs. The right-hand carb throttle and choke cable were too tight which caused a high idle RPM condition.
After we adjust valves and synchronize carbs, any residual handlebar vibration will hopefully be removed by bar-end weights (or fill them with lead shot).
My friend also has a 1983 R80RT with the same 32 mm carbs that have been rebuilt. The RT also has an electronic ignition.
He wants to swap out the R65's components with there items. What could go wrong? Is the carb jetting or ignition timing different?
Also, if the original bean can is to be used, is there any advantage to applying new heat sink paste to its underside where it mounts on the chain case? [/size]
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[size=14]We adjusted the valves and synchronized the carburetors. Engine mounts were torqued to ~45 ft-lbs. Most of the engine vibration is gone The handlebars are still buzzing however.
When the throttle is briefly cracked open, the engine revs but is slow to return to idle. It hovers at 2000 RPM for several seconds before settling to 1400 RPM. This bike has a bean can. I'm thinking the centrifucal spark advance flyweights are sticking open or the return springs are weak.[/size]
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[size=14] I'm thinking the centrifucal spark advance flyweights are sticking open or the return springs are weak.[/size]
Idle should be closer to 1000rpm. When you are experiencing high idle return, take a long screw driver and push down on both throttles at the carb and the choke levers to make sure there is not a tight cable hanging up.
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[size=14]We verified the throttle cables and choke cables are not hanging up when the throttle grip is turned fully forward.[/size]
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[size=13]An electronic ignition trigger has been ordered. This will replace the bean can and hopefully resolve the elevated-idle-RPM condition which persisted even after we balanced the carbs, verified the throttle butterfly valves and choke plates were in their normal positions (control cables not tight).
The Alpha electronic ignition is supplied by Motorrad Elektrik.
It is a Hall-effect-triggered unit. Euro Motoelectric has an EnDuraLast ignition which is triggered by an optical sensor.
Installation process for Alpha is simple. The EnDuraLast is more complicated to install.[/size]
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I spent a bit of time reading through your posts. It is clear that you have been spending a lot of time researching, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, some of your efforts have been wasted reading the wrong things. I read recently that one of the problems of the internet is that deluge of opinions it allows. Opinions are like butt-holes in that everyone has one, the internet allows all those opinions to get out there. Sadly some opinions are less worthy than others and some are not worth the time taken to read them. So, here are some more opinions for you.
There is no point in putting heat paste on the beancan where it mounts to the timing case. I'm not going to spend time on this one, it is just plain wrong.... It is a hold over from the original ICU to heatsink mount - the heat sink paste would disappear causing the ICU to overheat, which would cause all sorts of odd symptoms until it died of cooking itself. You were supposed to renew the paste every year or so, but there should not be too many of those original ICU and heatsink combinations out there anymore. The second generation ICU is capable of switching much higher current than the original and is rivetted to the heatsink.
Be aware that the different versions of the ICU work best with different ignition coils, the take home is that the later version can run just about any coil, even the original 6volt in series "can" coils.
The Emerald Isle (Alpha) system is not, as far as I can find out, as tolerant as far as coils go as the Version 2 "std" ICU, best to stick with the current edition BMW/Bosch coil or its functional equivalents from people such as Dyna.
You have a 1982 edition which may be afflicted with the dreaded "crack-o-matic" grey coil. There is truth in the old BMW jungle saying "if coil is grey - throw it away".
If you have a crack-o-matic it will have already cracked which means that if you go for a ride on a rainy day you bike will stop, and then after a night in a warm dry garage, it will go again - till next time.
You cannot exchange the EI (Alpha) ICU with the "std" ICU - you will get a spark, but will have no advance/retard. If it worries you, buy a spare.
The Alpha Ignition system is manufactured by Emerald Isle, around the world it is sold under its own name, as the Alpha, also Red-Centre and other names. It is a brilliant bit of kit (I have one myself as a recent buy) as it does two things that addresses things that BMW want kicking for not doing with the original beancan electronic ignition, namely incorporating the ignition advance into the ICU instead of using steam age bob-weights and making the hall effect device a "cassette" installation that allows replacement in minutes rather than hours.
EME, market good quality alternate parts to support the OEM beancan ignition, they also market an optically triggered, crankshaft mounted (on the end of the alternator) which has a good in-service reputation. I harbour doubts in respect to optical triggered systems, being on of hundreds of people who had bad experiences with the (in)famous Piranha optically triggered ignition system in the 80/90s. There is a surprising amount of general crud and oil mist floating around under the front cover which ensured unexpected "failure to proceed" and the need to remove the cover and wipe the optics clean on a regular basis.
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[size=13] An Alpha V.3 was purchased from Motorrad Elektrik to replace the BMW bean can ignition control unit. My understanding is this is manufactured by Emerald Isle. the new ignition has not yet been delivered. The optically-triggered EME ignition had a lot of installation instructions which looked to be challenging.
My friend complains that his R65 has a supremely uncomfortable seat. It's like sitting on two-by-four framing lumber. He also complains the bike vibrates excessively above 60 MPH. We rode together at about 60 MPH for a few hours.
The engine motor mounts have already been torqued to 45 foot-pounds. I recommended that he should install an engine guard (removed from his 1983 R80RT. This will change the natural frequency of the frame to a frequency which is not a harmonic of the engine vibration frequency. The intent is to reduce potential for resonant vibration.
If this is unsuccessful then a more intrusive vibration-reduction method may be possible. I'm hoping his R80's final drive unit (rear bevel drive) will fit onto the R65 rear wheel. The respective bike's driveshafts are different lengths but if their bevel drives are interchangeable then there is some merit in making the swap. The R80 bevel drive should have a taller ratio such that when installed on the R65, the engine R
pM for a given road speed will be lower. Of course, the acceleration and top speed would be adversely affected but the vibration should be lower and fuel economy would probably improve. has anybody tried this swap?
The handlebars also vibrate a lot above 60 MPH so he's installing a pair of bar-end weights to change the bar's natural frequency.
One of the two Brembo front brake disc rotors is slightly warped. It doesn't cause the brake caliper to become hot and it causes a mild pulsation in the front brake hand-lever when the bike is nearly stopped. I'd disposition the condition accept-as-is.
The engine idle speed (RPM) is elevated but the idle RPM can be temporarily lowered by using the clutch to drag down the engine. A new ignition unit should fix this.
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Regarding your high idle, I recently had a similar issue after I fitted a new timing chain, thus disturbing the bean can and timing position. I didn’t have a zenon strobe light initially so I reset the timing only roughly at where it had been before.
The idle was fine when cold but after warming up with 10 minutes running it would idle at 2000 rpm and then take about 20 seconds before it dropped back to 1200 rpm. Accurately resetting the timing position with a strobe light corrected the issue. It might have some relevance for your problem.
I have read that using the clutch to drag the idle down will eventually wear your clutch plate out.
I’ve had a few issues with (subtle) vibrations, but they tend to be a bit transient and come and go with rpm and tuning changes. I’d be inclined to go through the check list of tuning issues, valve clearances, carb settings and balance, ignition timing (particularly) etc etc and then assess the situation.
I’ll leave someone else to comment on the R80 FD changeover, but my experience with the R65 is that it really likes to rev. The best advice that I was given is to keep it bubbling between 4K and 5K rpm where it really comes alive.
The seat? I’m more to used to ‘80s Ducati seats, (which are actual planks!) but I’ve done a few 6 hour days now in the R65 saddle and I find it supremely comfortable.
Good luck with it.
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he engine motor mounts have already been torqued to 45 foot-pounds. I recommended that he should install an engine guard (removed from his 1983 R80RT. This will change the natural frequency of the frame to a frequency which is not a harmonic of the engine vibration frequency. The intent is to reduce potential for resonant vibration.
Good thinking. I agree the amplitude of the vibration can be reduced by addressing the frame resonance frequency. You can also alter the coupling between engine and frame. There was an aftermarket rubber engine mount option but I had some success simply by reducing the engine mount torque settings. I used the lower torque settings of the 85 on model R65 although I forget the exact figures. It moved the vibration period up the rev range so that I'm now silky smooth up to 4500 RPM.
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[size=13]Thanks for the tip. We'll inspect the coil and will likely replace a grey-colored coil preemptively.
We're taking a multi-state tour from Cape Cod (New England) to West Virginia next month and it will definitely rain. I don't want to be stuck on the side of the road with a dead motorcycle because if his bike engine dies then we're both stuck.
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You have a 1982 edition which may be afflicted with the dreaded "crack-o-matic" grey coil. There is truth in the old BMW jungle saying "if coil is grey - throw it away".
If you have a crack-o-matic it will have already cracked which means that if you go for a ride on a rainy day you bike will stop, and then after a night in a warm dry garage, it will go again - till next time.
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Hello,
If it was my bike, I would note at what RPM the vibration are the worst. Then I would balance the carb at that same RPM. You'll be surprised to find them unbalanced ....
Of course, the carbs, valves and ignition must be spot on before .... But I'm sure you'll already know that...
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[size=14]Installation of the engine cylinder guards and torquing the engine mounting nuts to 50 ft-lbs helped further reduce the vibration but it's still not a highway bike. I'm looking into use of rubber elastomers on the front engine mount to further reduce the vibration. The bar-end weights have not been installed yet.[/size]
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https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0173339?isPunchout=false [size=14]Do you think a stack of these sealing washers in place of the front engine mount spacers reduce engine vibration?
They appear to be Belleville spring washers. I would sandwich some solid rubber washers between the sealing washers to attain this profile: ( | | | ) [/size]
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To me they look like flat washers with rubber bonded on but they might be worth a try. Bear in mind that when the aftermarket rubber mounts were available the engine still wasn't really isolated by rubber spacers. There was still metal to metal contact between the frame and the mounting bar and between the mounting bar and the engine. All that the rubber spacers did is reduce the clamping force betwen frame and engine and allow a slight amount of lateral movement. And that only at the front mount.
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Hello,
On those BMW, the engine help the frame being strength (?, spelling ? ) if you make the liaison soft, you'll interact with the frame properties in a bad way.
If you want to remove engine vibration, ensure the carbs are properly tuned. If this is not sufficient, you'll have to improve the balance of the moving parts, but playing with the softness of the engine mounts is a bad idea.
just my 2 ¢ (and do not ask how I know this... :-?
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I installed the Luftmeister version of rubber isolaters in place of solid spacers on the front rngine mount bolt .
I paid $30US in 1982 for this and I wouldn't do it again .
As has been mentioned, carb balance, ignition timing would probably help .
I'm just shy of 90,000 miles 145,000 km on my '81 R65 (original owner ) and I cannot detect any unusual vibration band, when I first got my '81 there was a pronouned vibration at 4250 rpm, came on like a switch was turned on .
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Hi Bob,
I beat you ! My '82 has done more than 200 000 km with me on the saddle ... Like you, I bought her new when I saw her desperately living in the dealer's show room in 1984 ...
I'll retire next year, and plan to rebuild the engine, to take her to my ultimate death ...
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[size=14]Installation of an Emerald Island Alpha electronic ignition corrected the elevated idle RPM condition.[/size]
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[size=14]The Emerald Island Alpha ignition system is installed. This eliminated the elevated engine idle RPM. Now we're trying to figure out how to quell the engine vibrations. Short-term fix is rubber mounting the engine at front mount. Long-term fix is to install an R80 engine.[/size]
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Glad to hear that, as I have same issue here...
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[size=14]The engine vibration problem has been largely resolved by installation of rubber bushings (vibration dampener) on the front motor mount. The vibration dampener is made from a '55 Chevy motor mount rubber bushing.
The rubber bushing arrives too thick and needs to be cut into thirds. One method to accomplish this is to clamp a bolt in a vice then slip the bushing over the bolt. This provides a stable platform to cut the bushing using a hooked drywall knife.
The rubber bushing is sandwiched between a pair of fender washers. Fastenal sells various sized rubber-lined sealing washers. These sealing washers were placed rubber-to-rubber against the bushing to form a vibration dampener assembly.
The vibration dampener is substituted for the small spacer (located between engine and frame) as found on either side of the engine's front motor mounting rod. My understanding is the motor mount torque should be reduced from 50 to 12 ft-lbs. A redundant means for maintaining threaded fastener torque should be employed e.g. use of Loctite, drill/crosspin or perhaps substitution of a Nylock nut. [/size]
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Would you share some photo of this result?
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[size=14]1/2" 18-8 stainless steel neoprene bonded sealing washers are ordered from Fastenal as stock unit 0173339. Place the cut-down '55 Chevy motor mount rubber doughnut between the sealing washers placed rubber-to-rubber and insert between the engine and frame.
A Nylock nut is used in place of the BMW motor mount nut.[/size]
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[size=14]The R65 just completed a 2000-mile tour from New England to West Virginia.
Aside from a dead battery and difficult cold engine engine start, the bike ran well. There was sediment in the carburetor float bowl and we attempted to clean out the fuel orifice (enables fuel to enter the enrichener section of float bowl) in the Bing carb float bowls. The cold engine repeatedly fires on one cylinder during cold-engine start. I suspect one of the spark plug wires is bad. The grey crack-o-matic grey was preemptively replaced prior to the trip.
The battery was only one year old but it could barely crank the cold engine. A new battery cured the problem. [/size]
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[size=14]Installation of an Emerald Island Alpha electronic ignition corrected the elevated idle RPM condition.[/size]
Is the timing curve correct on the EI unit
They had problems with the advance not being being what it was supposed to be
I tried three different Ignition control modules and all three would only advance 20 deg instead of the 26 they were supposed to
I did notice they now have an adjustable one
So mine now lives in the spare parts kit and I rebuilt the original one and it works good
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I have installed a 37/11 final drive and it was the second best modification I did to it after Converting all the bulbs to LED
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[size=14]That's a neat modification. Did it improve the bike's highway fuel economy?
The R65 I'm working on has terrible cold-start function. The engine cranks for at least 15 seconds - firing on one cylinder - before the right cylinder catches.
We've cleaned the float bowl orifice which allows fuel to fill the fuel enrichener's partitioned-off chamber on the float bowl.
The carburetors were rebuilt over the weekend including new O-rings and diaphragms and high-speed, 5000 RPM balancing.
The battery is new < 1-month old.
The grey-colored crack-o-matic coil has been replaced with a unit from Motorrad Elektrik and the ignition is a new Emerald Island Alpha device.
The spark plug high tension leads/caps are original. I suggested verifying proper 5K ohms in cap and installing non-resistor spark plugs. [/size]
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As to the plugs, my local NAPA shop recently had the correct non-resistor plugs by NGK (mid range is BP6ES; NGK stock # 7333) and they were only $1.90 per unit. I'd suggest buying several sets; some non-resistor plugs are being discontinued.
What year and model did the 37/11 rear drive come from? My LS is geared 32/9, which is a 3.55:1, and a 37/11 would be 3.36, which sounds a lot more appealing. Speedo correction....will you do it?
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The R65 I'm working on has terrible cold-start function. The engine cranks for at least 15 seconds - firing on one cylinder - before the right cylinder catches.
The enrichers are a bit crude to say the least but they shouldn't stop it starting. In my limited experience an airhead will start absolutely instantly if it receives the correct mixture. Any degree of cranking suggests something is wrong so it's just a case of figuring out what. Assuming all jets are clean and clear including the one at the bottom of the float bowl that feeds the enricher well, the first thing to check is are the enrichers correctly assembled. The enricher discs have a pear shaped slot which should always be towards the top of the disc with the series of fuel holes at the bottom. The narrow end of the pear shaped slot should point towards the cylinder head. If these conditions are satisfied it's correctly assembled. With the carbs installed the enricher operating levers should be touching their respective stops when the enricher lever is fully on or fully off and both carbs should have the lever touch the stops at the same time.
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What is your starting sequence ??
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What year and model did the 37/11 rear drive come from? My LS is geared 32/9, which is a 3.55:1, and a 37/11 would be 3.36, which sounds a lot more appealing. Speedo correction....will you do it?
It was out of a /5
I had to buy 2
The first one was junk and I had to send it back and buy another one
If you get one off of eBay You may want to pull the cover and make sure it is good and then reseal it when reassembling it
Just depends on what the oil in it looks like
The speedo is only off 5%
I will not change it unless it goes bad
I don't remember if the gas mileage changed
I have not ridden it since July because the heads are off of it
I suspect it stayed the same or went down because I just rode it faster
The older ones are harder to work on but they are less likely to leak oil onto your brake shoes
They have an oil catcher around the out put seal and the brake shaft does not run thru the oil
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My LED's have moved to my R1150R
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Here is a picture of the bad crown gear in the first FD I got off of eBay
Some one rebuilt it and did not get the pinion depth correct >:(