The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: mrclubike on August 02, 2017, 10:05:42 PM
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Well I thought I was going to get lucky and was not going to have to have my heads reconditioned
But after about 67000 miles I started noticing the the valves getting quiet and I was losing about .05 mm per 2000 miles
I now have 75000 miles and have been adjusting the vales regularly but didnt want to push it any further
So I removed the heads and sure enough the exhaust valves were sinking into the seats
They will get shipped to Ted Porter
He isn't cheap but this isn't some thing you want to cheap out on
If you drop a seat from improper installation it can mess things up real bad :'(
It is a good time for some fresh rings anyway
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It is hard to tell in the pictures but the top of the valve is flush with the seat
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TP called me with an estimate
850.00 dollars US
If the intakes clean up with over a .040 margin I will not need the intake valves
Now I just hope they come back quickly :'(
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Ouch.
Did he gI've you any timeframe?;I've read that they're one of the better places, but always busy and turnaround can take a while sometimes.
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Ouch.
Did he gI've you any timeframe?;I've read that they're one of the better places, but always busy and turnaround can take a while sometimes.
I've no doubt, based on the comments I've seen in other forums that Ted Porter's shop does excellent work. But there is nothing "BMW-ish" about changing seats and setting up new valves, any shop with decent work practices and reputation should have no trouble at all.
Having said that I do remember someone in this group posting a "reconditioned" cylinder head that should have been inserted up the fundamental orifice of the butcher pretending to be a machinist that did it.
If you can't wait for Ted Porter (or afford him) ask your local engine rebuilding shops if they have experience in setting new seats into alloy heads that are suffering valve recession, and how they propose to do the job. Select the one that says they will first replace (or recondition) the valve guide so that they have a known good center, that they will then remove the old seat by the least destructive method that does the job, then send the head out to be welded up (the seat bore will have been damaged by the recession and probably further damaged in the removal process), because they have a known good center in the new guide they will then machine a new bore for the new seats you will supply (buy BMW they are cheap amazingly) and then put the head in an oven and the seat in liquid nitrogen (or dry ice or liquid oxygen, whatever they usually use) prior to pressing the seat into the head. They should insist on you supplying new valves (take a deep breath and buy BMW part, or if you cannot justify that, Intervalve from Motobins are good. Followed by a 1st class three angle valve job and you are good to go.
A good shop will also honestly tell you that there is always a risk of failure with pressed in seats, sadly the cure is to simply do them again and hope it works 2nd time round (with quality tooling and people who know how to do it, failure rate is low). If the shop suggests using "screw in" seats, walk away, don't bother arguing or asking further, just walk away, these are a "quick and dirty" fix used by sweat shop type rebuilders who accept a high failure rate as part of the cost of doing business.
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Thanks for the details. I was just curious, although it was brought up to me recently regarding having my valves adjusted and trying to fix my wandering idle. My local guy had mention valve recession as a worst case scenario but I haven’t gotten into it any further than that yet. I'm hoping that's not the case but nice to be prepared if that be in my future.
We have a couple of good machine shops around so very possible I could get it done locally, if necessary. Really hoping that's far into my future though.......
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I was told approximately 2 week turn around
If you take off the cost of the parts it is 360.00 for the labor
So if I took them some where local I am sure it would have been at least 200.00
The reason I don't mind spending the extra for some one with a good reputation is that we regularly go on trips that will take me 500 to 800 miles away from home
If I just road little short day trips 100 miles or less I more than likely would not have even needed to have had the heads overhauled in the first place
To put the cost of this in terms that people in other countries can relate to
I will have to work 34 hrs of overtime to pay for this
So it better be done right :o
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Check out this thread on Adv Rider
And you will know what I am talking about ;D
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/valve-work-evaluation.1245917/
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The reason I don't mind spending the extra for some one with a good reputation
Totally agree, I had my heads reconditioned not too long ago by a small town local engine shop, exhaust seats, valves and valve guides all replaced with new stuff. It cost me about 25hours of overtime and with no where near as much experience on BMW heads or as good quality as what TP can do. The replaced seats were done well but I should've got all of them done, as to recut the original intake seats they shaved a little of the chamber around the seat. He mentions this in his evaluation vid (is that the link above?) Probably prevents an original size intake seat from being able to be inserted again, hopefully it will last another 100K miles! In US dollars the job cost about $800, so TP's pretty reasonable plus a quick two week turnaround.
The engine shop I went to also does Nikasil cylinder plating interestingly enough. The job they did was ok but already I've found a loose valve guide after 8000km and I supplied them oversize, shouldn't have to check for that and only found it was loose while inspecting the heads after the timing chain broke on an unrelated matter (except age of and amount of km's on bike!). At least they fixed the valve guide for free. I don't expect another problem to crop up tho apart from rocker arm wearing, still on the original rockers which are getting a bit rough on the stem pads. There's been some good info here about rockers and smoothing the arms I remember reading some time ago too.
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I agree as well. If it comes down to being a $160 premium for reputable good work, that makes perfect sense. Especially with this type of work, you need it done correctly.
And two weeks isn't bad at all. When I was reading threads about it, seems like I heard it could get into months, not weeks. And that's not really a knock on them, it was just that they stayed that busy.
I'm hoping I'm able to avoid that for now, I just got worried when my local guy mentioned it as a possibility.
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Update
Ted called me Monday and Told me they hopefully will be done by the Saturday
If he gets them done this month i will be more than satisfied ;D
I am also having the valve cover mating surface milled flat and parallel to the head to cylinder surface
I have had to use silicone gaskets to get the valve covers to seal
Hopefully I be able to use both types now
I have also Check the pistons and cylinders
Both had virtually no wear even after 75000 miles
The ring gaps on the new rings were fine
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Little late to the party here, but.....
I took my R45 heads to our local machine shop which had gotten good reviews by folks that have had work done on their car/truck engines.
While the heads looked beautiful and clean, they were useless. The intake on the right side was so recessed that I couldn't even adjust it. Not sure how they managed that, it wasn't that way when I took it to them.
After chatting with a trusted Guzzi mechanic who also rides BMW's, I took it to the shop he recommended. $500 later, I have them back and they were done properly this time.
I have an R75 that will be needing work in the next year or so. I'm going to save myself the hassle and take it to this shop next time, even though its somewhat inconvenient to get to and more $$.
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Just an update
Because it is and R65 he did not have the valve seats in the OD that would fit best without taking more material out than necessary
If it wasn't for waiting for the valve seats to come in
My heads would be done and headed back to Me
When it is all done I just want them done RIGHT!
It is worth the extra wait
Compared to what other work like this can take
4 weeks isn't bad at all :)
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Another update
Ted finally got the seats in
and should be done middle of next week
He is installing Welltite seats
I was wondering if they are really that much better than the BMW unleaded seats
Another problem with the BMW seat is they are only available in one oversize
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Ted is supposed to be the man that knows so I'd assume he'd know.
Was that not your original plan? Or does that have something to do with the size thing you mentioned?
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I definitely will not argue with Ted about what parts to use
He is the guy that has to stand behind his work
I was just wondering if the BMW (85 and up) unleaded seats have been working well
He may be partial to the Welltites because of the sizes available
No need to mill out seat pocket anymore than necessary
That is the reason for the delay
He did not have optimum size on hand
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I just looked at your original estimate and saw that it called for the Welltites then. I thought that in your latest post something had changed from the original plan but now see that was it all along.
You're getting closer...........
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The heads came back today
They were very well packed and double boxed
And I installed them with no issues
Of course they are pretty :-*
But that doesn't mean a lot because anyone can bead blast heads
What does mater is that they go together without any clearance issues
If the seats aren't set correctly you can have a problem getting the valve lash set correctly
They adjusted perfectly with plenty of adjustment left
I had the valve cover mating surfaces milled flat and parallel so I just had to replace my old beat up and warped valve covers with a new set of peanut covers with the fancy built in oil filler cap ;D
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Here is picture of the combustion chamber
Ted didnt like my hardware bolts i had pluging the air injection ports so he installed a nice new set of drain plugs in their place
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They're a lot cleaner that what the engine shop I used did, which was nothing other than an acid dip. Great to see Mrclubike, they look great. Did you get them blasted as extra?
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They're a lot cleaner that what the engine shop I used did, which was nothing other than an acid dip. Great to see Mrclubike, they look great. Did you get them blasted as extra?
No extra charge
It is just the way Ted P does it
Better than New
Final total return to my door was $1015.00 USD
Like I said Better Than New
Lot of money to spend on a bike that is worth $2500.00
But I am not planning on selling it
I did consider trying to find a later R80 complete engine but that is not easy or inexpensive to do
I do think the value is climbing on all the airheads
So not all is lost