The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: BPT on August 19, 2017, 08:03:44 PM
-
Cranked up the bike for a ride last night. It started right up and sounded very nice - ba da dump, ba da dump, ba da dump. It idled for a bit while I got situated, I left the driveway, got about 2 blocks away and noticed a change - felt and sounded rough. I let off the throttle and the idle dropped pretty low and it died. I started it up (not as easily as the first time) and it was still noticeably rough. Decided to go back to the house and had very little power, kind of like trying to drive in too high of a gear. I got back home, had to be somewhere so I left it to rest.
Got home from work this evening, fired it up and it started right away and idled great, with that same nice sound. I revved it up and down, nice and smooth. Let it idle at various rpm's, still good. I figured I'd give it a spin around the block so went into the house to put shoes on. Came out, started it up, still nice. As I was sitting there, all of the sudden the sound changed and it went back to the rough running just like before.
So, the only thing I've figured out so far is that something is changing once it warms up. At first I thought maybe one of the cylinders wasn't firing but they both are. It feels like the right one is harder and louder than the left (or the left is quieter and softer?). I'm pretty ignorant on this but decided to play around with the mixture screw to see if I could notice any changes and didn't sense much difference. It did the same thing when I tried to ride where it wanted to bog down unless I gave it tons of throttle.
With decreasing sunlight, increasing mosquitoes, and visions of Shovelheads dancing in my head, I gave up for the evening. As it is right now, I won't be able to ride it to the local shop to get their help.
Any thoughts, diagnosis? More importantly, a particular spot to start tinkering? Feel free to be basic, simple and detailed.
Thanks in advance.
-
Kinda sounds like one of the carbs isn't getting fuel .
-
That thought crossed my mind. But I'm confused as to why it is normal at first, until it runs for a little bit. Is there something that changes that could have enough fuel initially but then not after it warms up?
I did check the choke to make sure it was opening/closing and they both looked to be operating correctly.
-
Do you have the ability to short the plugs? If so, get it to happen again and then short the good cylinder. I'm guessing the bad cylinder is not firing at all and the weak pulse you are feeling is from the exhaust crossover tubes. If it is firing, just very weak, it's probably carb related. If not I'd first make sure you are getting spark.
-
I'm familiar with the "lay the plug on the cylinder" method of checking spark and remembered something was different with these bikes and you can't do it that way.
But didn't know the proper method and I'm digging around on the internet.......
-
You need to make sure the spark always has a path to ground when you "short out" the cylinder
You should not just pull the plug wire off and let it hang
Removing the wire from the plug and putting another plug in it place is OK as long as it stays grounded to the head or block
but what you need to to do is short the plug out while it is running
You have to rig up a way to expose the high tension lead and ground it out intermittently
You can make an extension out of a spoke
By the way a bad coil can have symptoms you describe
It will only run one cylinder at a time and can be either cylinder
But your problem sounds more like a carb bowl draining down as the engine runs
Also could be a valve opening up as the engine gets warmed up
Have you adjusted your valves lately :'(
-
That thought crossed my mind. But I'm confused as to why it is normal at first, until it runs for a little bit. Is there something that changes that could have enough fuel initially but then not after it warms up?
I did check the choke to make sure it was opening/closing and they both looked to be operating correctly.
A restriction in the fuel supply
-
The back story: I'd been having a random wandering idle problem so I'd recently adjusted the valves in order to be able to make sure the carbs were correct.
Last week I went to my local shop to have them give it a listen and the guy there tuned my carbs for me. It was fine when I left (about 15 minutes away with a good stretch of highway). This was the first time I've tried to ride since then. I've ridden several times since the valve adjustment with no problems.
The one thing he told me after adjusting the carbs was that I most likely need my timing chain replaced. I knew that was coming but he's saying sooner rather than later.
-
first thing i would do is drop the float bowls one at a time and check for crap in the them and the flow out of the needles
-
Ok, I like that, nice and easy. Anything in particular I should watch or look for as far as flow?
-
There's usually a bit of internal thread exposed on the top of the spark plugs. I used some screws, M3 thread I think, and ground the heads of the screws to match the diameter of the spark plug nipple so the plug wire would still fit. Other people use wheel spokes because the threads are the same. Then you just need a way to ground the bolt to the head without getting shocked yourself. A screwdriver works great. That way, with the engine up to speed you can quickly "switch off" one cylinder to get an idea what the other one is doing. It is helpful when tuning/syncing carbs as well.
-
Thanks Misterpepper, I'm getting a better visual on that now. I'm at work today and won't be home until late evening so won't be doing anything tonight. I can pop the bowls off to look for crud though. Something tells me I won't get lucky and have it simple and obvious though......
-
Ok, please school me on carburetor flow. I only did a very quick check today but didn't see anything that looked unusual to me.
There was no noticeable crud in the bowl. I had steady flow from both carbs after opening the petcock. Moved the floats up and down and it turned the flow off and on.
So going with the theory that it's a fuel constriction problem, where is the next place to check since it looks like the bowls are being filled with no problem?
I figured I'd start with the carbs, then move to the spark if that doesn't work.
-
Still, next time it does this, shut off the fuel petcock, turn key off, coast to side, and check the bowls to see if one of them is almost dry...
-
Sounds like the fuel is good
I would check the valve lash again especially exhaust
Then test the spark
I like this one from Lisle
The tip unscrews so it will work with out style of spark plug boot
Compare the spark when it is running good to when it is running bad
-
Thanks MrClubike, I'll see about getting such a thing. As far as the valves, do you think it would start and run OK at first, them go bad after a few minutes?
And thanks Justin, that was next on my list. Unfortunately, there will be no riding. The last try I couldn't get out of the driveway. But I'll crank it up and let it run until it does that again and check the bowls as you said.
What should I look for if the bowls are dry?
-
Update: had a little bit of time to fiddle with it. Of course, it didn't want to replicate the problem exactly.
It starts up with no problem. I let it run a few minutes then took a spin around the block. It sounded a little bit rougher but not much (and I had been tinkering with the carb idle mixture before so I'm sure it's off now).
I went home to put on shoes again and take a longer ride. I've noticed now that in 2 & 3 gears, when I rev to about 3000 rpm, it starts to sputter.
MrClubike - haven't gotten any kind of tool yet but I did use the short-on-the-cylinder method and looks like I'm getting decent spark from both plugs. I pulled the tank and did see anything loose or melted as far as connections go.
Talked to my local shop guy, without seeing it, he's leaning towards ignition, probably something with the bean can. Waiting on it to cool down right now before I inspect that.
Any more thoughts?
For coils, I have the dual (one piece with two outlets). Appears to be grayish but also dirty. Is any gray coil one of the possibly bad ones? Or was it just a certain run of them?
Any ideas are helpful. As it stands, I can't ride it to my local shop do will be slowly trying to eliminate things in the driveway.
Thanks again.
-
The black and gray coil is a problematic part .
If you can get a good look at the coil with the fuel tank off, check for cracks in the case where the steel laminate core goes into the coil .
-
I've noticed now that in 2 & 3 gears, when I rev to about 3000 rpm, it starts to sputter.
I had a pin hole in the carb diaphragm that acted like that. Idled like a champ but would not rev........ depending on the size of the hole the symptoms would vary I should think.
-
Can you show us a picture of your coil
If it is the original one I would change it
-
I can do better than that Bob Roller, I've got it right here in front of me. According to the internet and the part number, this is one of the bad ones. Not sure exactly where you're saying to look but I think I'm seeing cracks on the end opposite of where the wires plug in. Here's a pic, not sure if it will be clear enough to see.
So I'm assuming this should be replaced regardless of whether it's the source of my current problem, right? I'm a little confused on how to determine which replacement to go with. I figured the Dyna but which color? The orange?
-
Thanks Wilcom, I'll put that in the memory bank. I have no idea when these carbs would have last been rebuilt. I was hoping I could put that off for a while.......
-
And MrClubike, I guess we were posting at the same time. Here's a pic of the coil, pretty sure it's the bad one.
I was confused abut the gray vs. black since this has a little of both. But going by the number and riveted bracket, I think it's original. Seems like I saw that the replacements for the bad ones were made in Slovenia. Mine's a German.......
-
You have the "Crackomatic" coil and on the end pic you can see the cracks starting. Mine was very obvious and bike wouldn't even try starting.
-
Yep, so it needs to go. So what is the proper replacement?
-
I guess our messages are crossing also, Justin. From what I'd read, it seemed like the orange was what I needed, but I wasn't 100% positive.
And I'm assuming it's going to be via online. You don't know anyone in the metroplex that carries such a thing, do you?
-
No. You can get pretty quick service from Euro Motoeoectrics. I ordered mine from mpsracing.com and checking my receipt it is the "brown" coil.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com
-
Here's two links to online suppliers that carry the Dyna ' brown ' coil .
http://motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/dyna-coildc2-1x1.htm
Both are great businesses to do business with .
I think with Euromoto Electrics, you have to purchase the mounting adapter seperatly, Mororrad Elektrik, the adapter comes with the coil .
If the ignition leads look like they might be on the old side, both of these sites, have ignition leads as well .
-
Yep the Brown is the One you should get
And I also second the opinion you should replace the wires and caps
5000ohm caps and copper core wires
I think Ricks (Motorad Ele) bracket is better than EME
-
I've used both of those places, good folks at both. I was going to check on prices and shipping and go from there. And where we sit in the US, probably the same time wise from either.
I also have the original ICU. Since nobody's mentioned that, is it safe to say there's no need to mess with that if getting a new coil? I saw that the Beemershop has an Emerald Isle version for $30, but the other places get more spendy.
-
I was very surprised but the leads looked very good to me. No corrosion and nothing but shiny copper that I could see.
-
Well I think you'd be a much happier man if you replaced that grey crack-o-matic BPT, I've got nothing but praise for the Dyna coils, I just cleaned out a socket full of corrosion in a 1994 Dyna, it came up nice shiny and it's firing just fine. I think it's the cracks in the original grey coils that are the problem, let in moisture that lead to shorts in the windings but good the towers were dry, probably has hidden the problem for many a year!
-
Yes, Tunnelrider, definitely replacing it. I'll order an orange Dyna today. I know the one I have is just a problem waiting to happen. Hopefully it might take care of the problem I'm having now.
-
Hi BPT, i had a sort of similar problem a while back. It turned out to be HT leads. Check out my old post ' HT leads '
-
I looked at that post, wow, a lot of that was exactly what was happening to me. I'm ordering a coil, I have a spare ICU on loan, and I'll probably go ahead and get some new wires just because. Mine look ok but i guess it's best to get that out of the way.
-
If you want to build your own wires I have some extra NGK ends "in stock" and maybe some wire. If not you can probably get some solid core wire from NAPA...
-
I wouldn't mind doing my own, Justin. Looks like it will be next week before I will get a coil anyway. I looked on Aircraft Spruce after reading what you posted but couldn't find the wire you mentioned (it was late and I was tired though).
I have a NAPA close to work, I was going to call them today about something else, I can ask about wire. How much for your ends? Or do you know anywhere local that carries the correct pieces?
On a related subject, are plugs like oil (an opinion laden discussion)? I have Bosch W6DC's now. I see these are no longer made, available if you look hard. EME has the R version but I think these aren't supposed to be used in mine? I'm not trying to change anything, just want new plugs.
-
The only difference in plugs is the "R" plugs have an added internal resistor. Seems I remember from years way back, when resistor plugs started becoming fashionable, that the resistor provided a bit of RFI supression. As has been pointed out the internal resistor is irrelevant compared to the resistance of the "air-gap" at the plug end.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/spkplugwire.php?clickkey=68000
PM me on the NGK caps...
-
NGK has non-resistor plugs available .
I think I have BP7ES in the R65's
-
the best way to buy the wire is just ask for a universal 4 cyl plug wire set
Just make sure they are solid copper core
They are used on industrial and tractor engines
You will have enough wire and and coil ends to do 2 sets
I know our local motorcycle shop has NGK 5K boots in stock
Also N7YC Champions are still available for a non resistor plugs
-
You're right Bob Roller. I talked to EME today and they told me only BMW has the Bosch's now (unless, of course, you find old stock somewhere). He recommended the NGK and said they've has no problems or complaints. I know NGK makes a good plug (they're preferred over Bosch in my GTi), I just wanted to make sure I got the correct replacement. Since I'm chasing down problems I wanted to keep changes to a minimum.
I didn't realize they weren't made anymore and I'd just talked to my local shop people about plugs 2 weeks ago. They recommended those and now I'm going to have to mention that to them.
-
Like this set
It is from Orielys and it is enough for 3 sets of airhead wires
-
Thanks again, MrClubike. I'll check out the stuff you've mentioned here. I went ahead and got a set with the coil and stuff that I ordered but would rather do my own so that'll be what I do next.
Very strange, once again I've made a post here and then come back later to find a post of yours above mine that wasn't there before. It's happened several times the last week or so.