The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: BPT on May 25, 2017, 02:06:49 PM
-
I need to do it and this will be my first attempt. I was supposed to get a training session on this from Perry shortly before he died so now I'm on my own. Soooo ...... Is there anywhere online or anywhere else that you all would recommend that has a good and proper method? By that I mean both getting it done but also having clear but thorough instructions?
I have the Clymer manual and I have experience doing valves on old VW's (long time ago though). But I know several here will have some tips or better instructions.
Also, some time in the last few months there were a couple of threads on here where valve adjustment came up and some tips were given. Does anybody know which threads they were? Seems like they weren't solely about valves....
Sorry, I'm still having laptop trouble and this forum isn't the easiest with my phone.....
Thanks for any tips, tricks, suggestions, don't forget this, don't do this, etc.
BPT
-
I guess it depends on what model you have. Chris Harris has a YouTube video on how to do it . I just last week did mine for the first time.
Some problems I encountered was noticing when the "OT" mark is in the window. On my '83 r65 LS it is on a small aluminum metal tab, and I missed it at least 4 times!
Once I got that sorted out, I had trouble working out which side was ready to be adjusted. Part of the problem was that there was no valve clearance present.
Found the answer online. Simply put, check the push rod tubes that actuate the tappets. The side ready to be adjusted will be loose and rotate. Those on the other side will be tight.
Hope this helps. It seemed to make a big difference to my bike both starting and idling wise and mileage wise.
Goo luck.
-
I believe this was the thread you are looking for.
http://www.bmwr65.org/YaBB2.612/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1491912941/6#6
-
I have an 83, not LS. I've got some idling issues as well and was told I should do the valves first before messing with the carbs. I was also told to not just check the clearance but also for some other kind of slop but can't remember what he called it - lash maybe? And, unfortunately, can't remember what he told me to look for.
I've seen some of Chris Harris' videos and was hoping he had one for this. Thanks.
I'll check that link Wilcom. Seems like there were two around the same time and both had tips scattered throughout. I'll look at that one shortly, thanks.
-
I was also told to not just check the clearance but also for some other kind of slop
Could be they were adjusting end play as the second thing they were adjusting.
For you first outing for valve adjustment don't worry about the end play, will not effect your carb or timing stuff. You'll get to "end play" in the second semester
-
Hmm, that could be. It's very fuzzy now but I remember him telling me to check that also and it was at the same time he was telling me that I needed to do that before I tinkered with the carbs too much. For some reason I'm thinking he said it was related bur can't remember why.
Ok, I still want simple directions for adjusting for now but, since you brought it up, what would the end play affect? Is that simple to explain here?
-
since you brought it up, what would the end play affect?
Less noise is the only reason I know, I'm sure someone will chime in if there is a host of issues if not adjested.
The rocker moving sideways adds to the music in the valve gear not just the rocker smacking the end of the valve.............. That being said, After owning 6 airheads and over 100,000 miles, I have never adjusted for end play and nothing has fallen off.
-
Well, what the guy was telling me about was definitely functional and, I'm thinking, maybe important? Certainly not something like noise, they'd just shakeep their heads and smile about that.
Next time I'm up there I'll ask him. Need to talk to him about tires anyway.
So, back to basic valve adjusting.......
-
Too much rocker arm end play will make your valve gear sound noisy but won't have an effect on carb adjustments. As has been said forget about end play for now until you have mastered valve clearances.
Setting the valve clearances also makes small changes to valve timing and that can impact on idle mixture and speed. This is why it is always recommended to set Valve clearances before adjusting the carbs.
As to how to do it, the riders manual covers this as do Clymers/ Haynes manuals. The riders manual is very good and covers all normal service items. If you don't have one you can download a copy here: http://www.bmwr65.org/YaBB2.612/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1271881232
I'm not remotely a fan of you tube videos as the few I've seen always seem to have one common characteristic. They like the sound of their own voice too much and will not get to the point. They spend the first 10 minutes talking but saying nothing useful. If that isn't bad enough some of them are butchers that I wouldn't let near my bike. You tube would be my last place to look for advice when there are so many other resources.
-
Hear hear Barry! I never had a second thought against purchasing a Clymer repair manual when I bought my R65, over trawling through hours of useless you tube guesses. Occasionally I'll let myself watch one but end up laughing at irrelevant stuff I can't concentrate afterwards. Valve clearance adjusting is just one of those maintenance tasks that's simple, sometimes a bit of a PITA 'cause of oil drips ha ha but starts opening up the workings of your bike to understand esp as you get to know your bike and makes a surprising difference sometimes, as long as the engine is rotated to TO (Top Dead Centre) again after the first side has been adjusted BPT. Then re check your work.
One of the things I do when doing valve clearances is slacken the head nuts by a quarter turn then retorque them. Does anyone think this is necesarry? The Clymer manual suggests this for a tune up. It's kinda put me off doing valve clearances too often. Make sense though... But I guess if the bike is running ok torques are prob pretty good? Sorry BPT don't mean to hijack your post. Cheers.
-
I agree, Barry, there's a lot of drivel and just plain ridiculous stuff on YouTube. However, I do use it frequently and have found it very helpful for things where a photo just won't do. Unfortunately you do have to weed through the garbage to find those good ones. I am enough of a skeptic that I never just believe the first thing that I see there.
In this case, I was just hoping to use the brilliance of the members of this forum to tell me where I might find one of those gems. Or any good step-by-step guide (just threw YouTube out as an example). I know that the folks here can direct me to something helpful and avoid exactly what you are talking about - the useless and dangerous.
For now, for the first time, I was hoping to find something simple but thorough. And I especially like the hints like "Don't worry too much about this..." and "Make absolutely sure you don't forget this.....".
As mentioned, I used to do this regularly on the VW's so it's familiar to me, just wanted to get the particulars of the BMW. And I know that there are some suggestions out there that can make it easier, meaning not just easier to do, but easier to get it correctly done the first time.
One specific question: what is the consensus on the clearances? For the exhaust, .008 seems to be common but the inlet is all over the place. I've seen .006 in several places, also .004 & even .002 (the User Manual). (that's another reason I wanted to ask here first because I've seen a lot of references about how the different manuals and instructions are not always correct and/or consistent).
I'm currently looking at the thread linked above, my Clymer and Duane's write up on w6rec. But still accepting tips and suggestions...........
Thanks again!
-
The exact clearance isn't that important as long as both cylinders are the same. BMW did vary them a few times and then settled on 0.004" inlet 0.008" exhaust.
As consistency is the most important part of the whole process my tip is while checking with the feeler gauge press on the adjuster with your thumb to take up any slack in the valve train.
-
Ah-ha! That thumb thing was something I knew I'd read around here but couldn't remember where. Exactly the type of thing I was looking for, Thanks!
And the one consistent thing that I keep reading is that the exact clearances aren't particularly important. But since this is the first time I wanted a good starting point. I know that further down the road it's more of keeping track of any changes that's important.
Your numbers were what I was going to use since it seemed a good average, unless someone hear said differently.
Thanks again for your assistance.
-
Did mine this past weekend:
Jacked up the bike with my new Harbor Freight Motorcycle Jack, which put it at a comfortable level for this weak back of mine. Popped the covers off,(after popping open a Schiner Bach) pulled the plugs, stuck in a straw and rotated the back wheel while in 5th gear.
WAAAAY easier than laying on your back in the dirt during a HOT Texas summer afternoon adjusting VW valves.... ;)
-
Ah, yes, there's a good tip....... don't forget the Shiner!
Up here in the northern part of the Lone Star state, this past week would've been perfect with unusually low temps - into the 50's for lows a couple of days ago. But, of course, I can't get organized enough for that. Yesterday was beautiful but today someone has flipped a switch and we'll be in the 90's with heat index of over 100F. And extra high humidity to boot.
-
Today on the coast, we're looking at mid-90's with a heat index of 110.
The humidity will be over 90% with a 100% chance a mosquitoes the size of bats!
People in other parts of the country (world) just don't understand..... ;)
-
That's about what we're going to hit. Not unheard of but just a big change since it was so cool this week. Cooler than normal. We've got 2 days of it then down to high 80"s, supposedly.
Mosquitoes never took a break, we hardly had a winter this year.
Not long ago a woman told me "Oh my god, I never knew cockroaches could FLY until I moved to Texas. And they're HUUUGE!!"
Haha
-
"Oh my god, I never knew cockroaches could FLY until I moved to Texas. And they're HUUUGE!!"
Ha! Yah, everybody is brave until the cockroaches FLY!!! ;D
-
Found an unanswered question in this thread:
"One of the things I do when doing valve clearances is slacken the head nuts by a quarter turn then retorque them. Does anyone think this is necesarry? The Clymer manual suggests this for a tune up."
I'd be interested in opinions on this, because guess what I'm doing today?
Thanks
-
I used to do this, but I stopped 20 years ago .
If I have the heads off and new head gaskets installed, I will check the torque before doing a valve clearance check, but not back off any nuts .
After the gaskets have ' set ', I have never found the nuts under torqued in the 36 years of ownership of my '81 R65 .
I'll do a torque check and valve clearance check 500 miles, 800 km after having the heads off .
-
Thanks Bob. I think I'll just check for any under-torque without backing them off and otherwise leave them undisturbed and get on with the valves.
Thanks
-
"One of the things I do when doing valve clearances is slacken the head nuts by a quarter turn then retorque them. Does anyone think this is necesarry?
What Bob said...... :)
I've read too many stories about head studs pulled out of the aluminum block. I minimize my tinkering with those 4 bolts.
-
The only time I re-torque head bolts is when doing the rocker arm end play adjustment and that is very rare maybe once every 5 or 10 years.
-
I might be trying to get to my valve adjustment next week, time and weather permitting.
I am going to take the recommendations given here of keeping it just a simple valve adjustment this time around.
Is there anything else I should do along with this, while I'm getting my hands dirty?
My main reason for doing this is to make sure the valves are good so that I can get my carbs adjusted correctly (meaning I'm not doing the valves because of mileage or excessive noise).
Thanks again for your time and tips.
-
If it's preparation for tuning the carbs then if you haven't done it recently you could check the ignition timing.
-
I was wondering about that, Barry. To be honest. I've done very little as far as routine maintenance. I bought it from a shop and all of that was supposed to have been done. I haven’t put many miles on since I struggled with charging issues from the beginning.
That has been taken care of, it seems. About 6 months or so ago, I replaced the rotor, diode board, brushes, voltage regulator and battery.
So it's not that I've done nothing at all. I'm just now getting to the point where I need to do some of the basic/routine things either because of need (idle/carbs not quite right) or time (low mileage but it's been about 1 1/2 years now).
The owner of the shop where I bought it was going to school me on all of these as they came about but he died a couple of months ago so now I'm on my own. Except for this board, Clymer's, and the internet, of course.........
-
Hi BPT, although it may feel you are on your own, there is a wealth of knowledge that some good people on this asylum are happy to share and the Clymer is pretty good for explaining the tune up in simple terms.
I think for your first tune up you should only look at the timing if you're noticing a stumbling, not quite firing right feeling while riding normally. At lower revs (up to 3500rpm) the firing is more retarded than above 3500rpm. Therefore, when cruising at lower city speeds, in fourth say, if the bike feels like it is not quite running right then it would be a good idea to check and adjust the timing. Likewise if it feels like that at higher revs, check the timing as the timing should be advanced by the ignition trigger unit ('bean can').
If you're not noticing a stumbling, not quite firing right feeling with normal stop/start riding I would carry on with your tune up and assume the timing is correct. You can always revisit it later, once you've got more of a handle on the tune up and balancing the carbs.
-
Thanks Tunnelrider. This came about a couple of months ago and has to do with my idle. Running seems ok.
My idle would occasionally jump around. By that I mean it would seem a little off and a simple adjustment would put it right. It'd be OK for a few rides, then would need adjusted again. Never anything major. But one day I went for a ride and everything was great until I got off the highway. Hit the first stoplight and it was idling really high and wouldn't go down. I just so happened to be going to my local shop and mentioned when I pulled in. The guy there tweaked them again and, again, they were ok. But when I told him about having to do it often lately, that's when he told me I needed to adjust the valves.
I hadn't ridden in a while but cranked it up last week. It doesn't sound smooth (hard to explain but you know it when you hear it), but not sure if that's just from sitting.
So, to summarize, this all came about because of it not idling too well and fluctuating. In one of the previous threads I mentioned it seems like someone had almost the exact same symptoms. I'll have to go back and look, I'm thinking his might have been timing or ignition though.
-
I hadn't ridden in a while but cranked it up last week. It doesn't sound smooth (hard to explain but you know it when you hear it), but not sure if that's just from sitting.
l wonder if these minor maladies are due to infrequent use. Mine starts instantly on the button very time.... except for the very rare occasions when it doesn't ::) And they are always when it hasn't been used for few weeks like recently when I was away on holiday. One thing I know for sure because I've checked, is that the fuel level in the carbs drops significantly through evaporation loss and I think sometimes it doesn't refill properly when the tap is turned on. The most volatile fractions have been lost anyway which is not conducive to easy starting or cold running.
On the ignition timing if you think it's OK then by all means leave well alone. The main thing is not to adjust the timing after tuning the carbs because it can change idle speed.
-
I've wondered that myself but there have been many periods of infrequent use and the idle thing never did what it's doing lately. My problem previously was the charging thing, I never knew when it was going to die on me. So that was the main reason I wasn't riding too much. Now that I (fingers crossed!) have that problem taken care of, I was hoping to ride more regularly. The last couple of months have just been interrupted by non-motorcycle related things.
As far as I know, the timing is ok. By that I mean it seemed to be all this time. The only noticeable strangeness now is the fluctuating idle. I'll plan to just do a basic valve adjustment and get the carbs right for now.
Any easy to notice symptoms that the timing could be off?
-
Unless the timing is way off, you won't notice anything .
I've had my '81 R65 a little over 36 years and when I check it, I usually don't have to adjust it .
The few times I have adjusted it, it wasn't much of an adjustment .
The electronic bean can has few parts that will wear out .
About the only thing that is common, is sticking advance mechanism .
-
I was wondering about the advance mech. sticking but hadn't looked into that yet.
-
As far as I know, the timing is ok. By that I mean it seemed to be all this time. The only noticeable strangeness now is the fluctuating idle. I'll plan to just do a basic valve adjustment and get the carbs right for now.
Yes do that BPT, that will put you on the right track.
Playing around with the idle speed and mix to balance the carbs takes time and patience, and unless you have a big fan to put in front of your bike to provide cooling you need to go for a ride, firstly to get the engine up to normal operating temp, then riding inbetween adjustments, to cool the engine (as you will keep it running while adjusting and listen to the exhausts, trying to even the 'pop' so they are the same). I take a combination phillips head/flat head screwdriver and 10mm open end spanner (for the cable adjusters) in my pocket. As mentioned, Barry has posted a really useful link on the technical FAQ's board on carb tuning by ear:
http://www.bmwr65.org/YaBB2.612/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1274863320
If, after doing your valve clearances and playing around with the carbs, you still have a high idle problems then I'd look at squirting some lube in the bean can.
Any easy to notice symptoms that the timing could be off?
I've had to slightly adjust my timing once. Performance wise it was obvious, it was stumbling, not quite firing right, below 3500rpm, esp. noticeable after take off (fine) then holding speed at about 25-45 mph (stumbling).
-
On our r65 and r100 if they set very long "stuff" starts growing in the transfer(?) jet. It's the get in front of the main jet that has all the itty-bitty holes in it. It'll idle fine, good when at cruise, but very stubborn getting there unless it's partially choked. This will happen after 3 months or so of being idle.
If you want to run down to the south side of town I'll be more than happy to "supervise" your valve adjustment. And, we can check timing and carb sync afterwards...
-
I've always heard that you want to adjust the valves cold, but lately I've seen some stuff suggesting that this only applies to older bikes like the /2. I've always adjusted my valves cold, but it sounds like you're saying they're fine to adjust after a ride. What's the consensus on this?
Also, hi! New member here :D
-
I've always heard that you want to adjust the valves cold, but lately I've seen some stuff suggesting that this only applies to older bikes like the /2. I've always adjusted my valves cold, but it sounds like you're saying they're fine to adjust after a ride. What's the consensus on this?
I believe it's a warm motor when you are adjusting the carbs. The valve settings are for a cold motor.
"Back in the day" we used to set valves on cars with the motor warm and while it was running. :'( Glad I don't do that anymore :)
-
I had also heard from a very creditable source that valve clearances don't have to be done stone cold. Obviously you wouldn't want to adjust them with the engine hot enough to cause burns but a few years ago I decided to try checking them warm and then checked them again stone cold the next day. There was no measurable difference.
Being able to do them warm fits nicely into the annual service. Drain the oil hot and leave for half an hour, change the filter, check plugs and ignition refit the drain plug and then it will be cool enough to check the valve clearances before refilling with oil.
I'm sure we discussed this once before because I remember mentioning that I once had a car where the clearances were not only done hot but with the engine running. It was hard on the feeler gauges.
Here we go - the thread from nearly 2 years ago where I first tried doing them on a warm engine.
http://www.bmwr65.org/YaBB2.612/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1439431305/2#10
-
the clearances were not only done hot but with the engine running. It was hard on the feeler gauges.
I still have a feeler gauge with dents in it somewhere LOL. Yep you would turn it down till it grabbed the gauge and then loosen til it just slid thru without grabbing.
No feeler gauge no problem, just adjust by ear. CLACK CLACK to loose CLICK CLICK still too loose, click click, almost... [size=8]tic tic [/size]....ahh , just right.
-
Being able to do them warm fits nicely into the annual service. Drain the oil hot and leave for half an hour, change the filter, check plugs and ignition refit the drain plug and then it will be cool enough to check the valve clearances before refilling with oil.
Yeah, that makes things a lot more convenient. I used to adjust the valves, then button everything up and go for a ride to warm up the oil and do a change.
-
To Justin - be careful with an offer like that, I might just take you up on it. And bug the crap out if you with a lot of questions. Seriously though, it would be nice to have an experienced set of eyes and ears to have a look and listen.
I've had some things come up the last few weeks and had to delay this but looking at getting into it again. Of course, next week will be the hottest week so far this year - just my luck. So we'll see if I can deal with that and try to do at least a basic valve adjustment in the next week or two.
I did crank it up and took a short ride last week. I played with the idle screws (the throttle adjustment, not mixture) and was able to get the idle high enough that it didn't seem like it was going to die. And it stayed that way until I pulled into the drive at home. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will stay that way the next time I fire it up....
-
Bring it on! PM me if you want my address...
-
Thanks Justin, I might do that at some point. I'm going to attempt the valve adjustment in the next couple of days, if everything goes right. We'll see what happens after that. I have a feeling I'm going to need some help with the carbs afterwards.
One question about the adjustment: I'm following everyone's recommendation to do just that for now, just a simple valve adjustment. Should I not worry about checking the torque for now?
-
If you are going to re-torque you should do it first as it may cause clearances to change. But, if you don't have any seeping around the head gasket it's probably not a 100% needed thing to do...
-
Thanks, Justin. Nope, no seepage. Since I've had the beast it's been leak free in that area. I know everyone said to keep it simple and just do the valve adjustment for now, just wanted to make sure that wasn't considered an automatic part of that process.
-
The only one I ever had seep was on a new R100/7 I bought. On my way up to Alaska I had to stop at a gas station in N. Dakota and bum a torque wrench. I retorqued, reset the valves, and continued on my way with no seep. Probably the gasket settling in since I would guess I had less then 5k miles on it...
-
This is some good info from Snowbum on high idle problems BPT if you still are having that uneven idle issue.
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/ignition.htm
-
Wow, thanks for remembering that, I'll check it out. Yes, still having that problem but haven't done anything with adjusting the carbs yet. I was doing the valve adjustment in order to be able to adjust the carbs properly and see if that was the problem with my idle.
Valve adjustment went OK but developed the leak I wrote about. I've had a hectic last few months and haven't had a lot of spare time and now it's getting near the 100's here so haven't been too enthusiastic about getting out and being frustrated in the heat. On the days off where I haven't been busy, I haven't felt like getting up early enough to catch the more pleasant temps.
Thanks again, great of you to remember and pass this along. I'll give it a read and update you when I finally figure this out......... Cheers
-
This thread has a lot of replies, so I will only add:
1) it is MUCH easier than tuning carbs
2) with the sidecar, doing the right side can be tough. Persevere, your engine deserves it.
-
Sorry, Rob, what is it you're saying is easier? The valve adjustment?
And, yes, the right side is a bit of a pain. Hard to even get a good look at it. The adjustment itself wasn't too bad, but ending up with a leak sucks with the limited access over there.
Yep, I'll get it eventually. It's going to be put off a little bit unless I can find an air conditioned garage for the next few weeks.
-
Tunnelrider - thanks for the link. I had read that before but couldn't remember where. It was there that I got the idea (and was hoping) that it could be something sticking in the ignition. Hoping because I was thinking it'd be easier to unstick something than to play around with various adjustments.
Unfortunately, the consensus here and elsewhere seems to point to the valves and carbs. I'm going to need to check into that area anyway, just to see. Slowly but surely............
Thanks again.
-
Sorry, Rob, what is it you're saying is easier? The valve adjustment?
Yes, I just read your opening post, and knew you had a sidecar on there.
I once had an outfit, myself.