The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: BPT on June 28, 2017, 03:56:02 PM
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Dammit, Justin. I knew as soon as I said it that I shouldn't have - that I've never had a problem with leaks or seepage. But now I do........
I finally got around to adjusting the valves. It went fairly smoothly. I do have a couple of things to ask but will save those for now. The one obvious glitch was the leak.
On one side the cover gasket ripped in the middle. I was careful and I don't know if it was already coming apart or if I did it taking it off. No matter, I had new spares, just in case. However, when I took the cover off, I didn't see a washer. I thought maybe I'd dropped it but didn't hear anything, looked all over the garage floor, never found one. So here's the problem/question: I couldn't find any washer that would fit correctly. And in trying to fit different ones, I discovered that any that I used were too thick to allow the cap nut to grab any threads. And now I have a leak from that cover. So I'm stumped here but have a few theories.
First of all, what is supposed to be there? Is it a super thin washer? Snowbum says there "might be a waverly". So I guess there are a couple of different things you could find there but what is proper?
Snowbum also mentions two different length studs. Could it be that someone put the short one in, couldn't fit a washer and nut so just left the washer off? That would explain why I couldn't find it and didn't hear one fall. However, if it was like that already, it never leaked. I put it back together with no washer because I had no choice but now have a drip.
So, I need to fix the leak, and I'm sure I need a washer there. But not sure how to identify what the problem is.
Thanks for any suggestions. And thanks to all who helped and answered questions about the valve adjustment to begin with.
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You should be able to get more than enough threads into the nut to snug it down .
Only suggestion I can make, is to remove both valve covers and measure how long each stud is, if you are not the original owner, no telling what a previous owner(s) may have done .
A thin washer is usually on the center stud, commonly called a wave washer .
If you have Lowe's home improvement center near you, they have wave washers, prepackaged in those large bins of hardware, don't know if they will have the correct size or not .
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Thanks Bob. I knew that I should have more thread to grab, but not sure why I didn't. And the only way it couldn't be a stud problem would be if it was a paper thin washer in there.
I didn’t try comparing to the other side yet because 1) didn't want to open up my non-leaking side yet 2) wasn't sure that what was there would be correct. It was the first side and I know that was a washer but didn't pay attention to what it looked like.
As far as the studs go, when you install them is it safe to say that they bottom out? Meaning it's not possible that the correct one is just too far in?
At this point I'm assuming it's the stud so will have to ask next what to do and whether it's simple or involved to replace.
I'm hoping it's not that but doubt I'm that lucky.
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From the illustration in a parts catalog, it looks like the stud is threaded on both ends, no step, or stop to bottom out on .
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=0364-USA-09-1980-248-BMW-R65&diagId=11_1708
You can remove it by using two plain nuts threaded on the stud and tightened up on each other, then turn the nut that is closest to the cylinder head .
Or Vise Grips on the unthreaded portion of the stud .
If it was put in too deep, you can use a thread locker, like Loctite to secure the stud in the cylinder head at the proper length .
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A-ha, that's what I was wondering and good to hear. Is it that easy? Is the sole purpose of it for that cover and it can just be removed and put back in without disturbing anything else?
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It's just threaded into the cylinder head, you won't disturb anything else, by removing it and reinstalling it .
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Get some silicone valve cover gaskets
They are excellent and much more forgiving than the OEM ones
But you will have to make sure the gasket and mounting surfaces are oil free and clean
They also can be used over and over
http://www.realgaskets.com/files/motorcycle.htm
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Thanks again, Bob. If it's that easy of a fix I'll be very happy. As far as I can tell, it's not stripped. I was concerned because I didn't change anything except the gasket. I couldn't figure out why it would leak now but not before when, apparently, it was fastened the same way. My thinking was maybe the last person did a quick fix on something and now it had to be done properly.
I've considered those gaskets, MrClubike. I had the stock gaskets here already for backup/spares. I've heard of and read about the silicone ones when I first bought the bike but forgotten about them. I'll revisit that...... thanks.
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Another way of getting a tight centre bolt is to unwind the existing stud and replace it with an M8X75mm (as far as memory serves me) allen bolt, with a nut to tighten it in the space between the head cooling fins. A PO had done that with my covers and I haven't had to change it. This works because the centre stud housing thread goes right through the head to that space on the other side, underneath the spark plug. Only draw back is you need to line up the nut to accept the bolt when putting the covers back on.
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Thanks Tunnelrider. I'm going to have to get a visual to understand completely but I read similar things online. Several said you may have to modify (grind down?) The nut to get it to fit since the spot is pretty tight.
I think the easiest will be to try and pull out the existing one a bit and see if that works. If it doesn't or I find it's stripped or something, then I'll have to see about trying to replace it or trying your suggestion. I'm able to grab and tighten with no washer so I hoping it's just a matter of bringing out a little bit more thread area.
Thanks again.
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Another way of getting a tight center bolt is to unwind the existing stud and replace it with an M8X75mm (as far as memory serves me) allen bolt, with a nut to tighten it in the space between the head cooling fins. A PO had done that with my covers and I haven't had to change it. This works because the center stud housing thread goes right through the head to that space on the other side, underneath the spark plug. Only draw back is you need to line up the nut to accept the bolt when putting the covers back on.
I used a bolt in this fashion until I got a stud long enough to thread into the nut so I didn't have to fight with getting the nut started every time I took the valve cover off
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Yep, Mr Clubike, I would definitely just like to have the original setup work properly. I'm hoping that it has just gone in a tad too far and I need to bring it out a bit. But something is telling me I won't get off so easily...... I'd think that if it was easy it would have been done already.
But at least I know now that it isn't a huge deal and that I have several fixes to choose from, if needed.
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so I didn't have to fight with getting the nut started every time I took the valve cover off
Ha yeah I have to admit to cursing a few times when I haven't got the patience to get fiddly starting the nut on the bolt straight through the head. On the upside, it probably allows a greater torque to be applied to the centre 'nut'. And practicing dexterity..
And yes BPT, in this method the nut does appear to have been ground on one side to fit here too.
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The real issue is that original stud is a little too short and if it's retained rather than replaced then the correct thing to do to avoid stripping the threads in the head is to screw it in until all the threads in the head are engaged. That does admittedly leave few threads for the nut but with the correct thin wavy washer it works fine. It wouldn't work with a double gasket or perhaps some after market gaskets.
Personally I wouldn't use a bolt. Either retain the original stud or put a longer one in and make sure it's fully screwed into the head to preserve those threads.
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From very recent experience I found that the stud is probably not the proper length to bottom out anywhere and you have to deal with that.
I had a small seep of oil on the underside of the valve cover even though the gasket was only about 600klms old. So, while I was adjusting valves (the reason why is a whole different story) the first thing I did to address the oil seepage was to try flipping the valve cover so that the edge that was previously on top was now on the bottom. The end result was no more oil seepage. Worth a try because there may be a slightly different profile.
I also had a stud that appeared to be not long enough because the cap nut could not get a purchase on it to tighten it up at all. So, I put 2 nuts on the stud, tightened them together and drove the one closest to the head to remove the stud. Cleaned up the thread and replaced it in the head and played with how far in until the nut was still able to get a purchase on the thread. Then I pulled the stud, put some Loctite on it, went back in about the same distance, put the nut on it and all is good. You do not need big torque on the cap nut.
End result was no oil seepage, firm cap nut and stud well anchored where it should be.
Hope that helps
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I stripped the threads for the left side when my bike was not too old (I bought it new). The dealership helicoiled it for me.
Later in life, when I was not so enthusiastic, I noticed one day that the acorn nut was missing, and the stud was about to fall out, too.
I already had two valve cover gaskets on that side, and had no leaks, so I just threw the stud in my saddlebag and forgot about it.
I always wanted to try those silicone valve covers. Never got around to it.
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Oh, and I think the short stud is stock.
The longer stud with the nut behind it is owner modification.
Not sure, but I seem to remember people sourcing specialty thin nuts for this purpose.
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Thanks for the replies. I've had some other stuff to deal with and haven't gotten to the stud yet. I will most likely try what PeterMC wrote about (and a few others) and remove the stud, check the threads, and then try to Loctite it back in at the proper depth. If it's too short I'll replace it but couldn't find one locally.
My local shop told me it's not a big deal, just use a thin layer of silicone to put the gasket back on and that if there aren't enough threads showing to fit a washer, don't worry about it. Kind of like a few of the replies here, he made it sound like it was the least important part of the whole set-up.
I might try those silicone gaskets later on as well. Seems people either love or hate them but I've heard plenty of good things. Sounds like them being VERY clean (and dry) is the key to a good seal with those.
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I would verify the length as stock before locktiteing it in place.
70mm
A new one is only 41 pennies??? :o
07 12 9 908 142
If/when you do locktite it, you will probably want to use red (or even tougher?), because the temps on the head would probably liquify any lesser grade.
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Rob, these are sold by packet of ten...
I've several left in one drawer...
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Yeah Rob, I'll definitely verify. At the moment I'm not sure if I have one that is too short or if it has just gone in too deep. Haven't wanted to or had the time to actually take it out yet to check.
I know they're not expensive but can't find one locally. I'll order a pair next time I need some other parts, if I haven't sorted it out by then. But figured no need right now to get just that, according to what everyone is saying here.
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Mikey down in Martindale will have what you need:
http://martindalemotorcycleworks.com/A55A76/home.nsf