The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: misterpepper on December 07, 2015, 11:59:44 PM
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Question 1: Both front rotors are worn to the point of needing to be replaced. I'm staring down about a $500 nut to replace both rotors and pad sets. This seems like an ideal time to consider an upgrade. What should I do? Do I go ahead and get new EBC (pretty much the only ones I can find) rotors and pads? Can I swap brakes off a different model airhead to improve braking or reduce unsprung weight? Does anybody swap just the rotors, not the carriers? Is there another brand I should consider other than EBC?
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Motobins will sell you new Italian copy rotors for a lot less than that.
Metalgear will sell you new rotors only (getting the old rivets out is not hard and you use high tensile bolts in their stead).
The 4pot Brembos fitted to late K series and early Oilheads have the same bolting pattern as our F08s but have different centering - you need to machine either the calipers or the forks (or make up an adapter plate - which is probably the preferred method) in order to center them over the discs.
To go to 4-pot calipers you will need (at least) a 17mm master cylinder.
I have bought the calipers and the master cylinder kit but have not yet fitted. In fact I presently run a single F08 on a cast iron rotor with "rubber" covered braided stainless steel brake lines. At present I am sufficiently happy with the braking to not be too bothered with setting up the 4-pot calipers. In fact If I really want more braking I will probably simply rebuild some old ATE calipers, and use a 13mm master cylinder, which would be a whole lot less bother than setting up the 4-pots.
Braided steel lines are the biggest single improvement I have ever experienced in a braking system, and for $40 it is a bargain improvement.
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Part of the equation may involve how much time you wish to invest in fettling the brakes and associated components, your personal wrenching skills, amount of time involved and available -both in the workshop and bike downtime- and that ol' trap that begins with, "Well, since I'm already this far..."
EBC brake rotors are a known entity as are their brake pads. No questions regarding quality and performance. As the bike's front brakes handle close to 70 percent of available stopping power, these components are critical safety issues.
Braided stainless brake lines will add to braking power. Suggest 'organic' brake pads as many of the metallic hi-perf pads will wear the stainless steel rotors at a higher than normal rate. The EBC rotors have a different drilled pattern that all but eliminates the OEM grooved disc syndrome.
Let us know what your decision is. Post up a photo of the end results. We all can drool!
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I think I have the "grooved disc syndrome," based on how scalloped my rotors are. Stopping power seems okay with the Brembos, but I'll look into the other options mentioned. I'm not afraid of wrenching (I currently have 2 FJ40 restorations taking up most of my garage). Here's a few pictures of the LS.
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I'm gonna through in a plug for <ruffles papers> Spiegler (https://spieglerusa.com/). I've been extremely happy with the semi floating rotor conversion they did for me. Of course I have a single rotor on the front.
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Okay, looking at my options so far:
New EBC rotors are $206/ea, shipped. That works out to around $500 when you factor in the cost of pads.
Motobins Grimeca rotors are $143/ea (currency conversion) before shipping, so about $100 savings over EBC.
Metalgear disc only (no carriers) are $202/ea before shipping and hardware needed to mount them to the carriers.
Spiegler is $240/ea per converted rotor, and I have to pay shipping both directions. But I end up with semi-floating rotors, and hopefully new rotors in the future will be cheaper.
I think I can rule out a swap to dual 4-pot calipers, since I can live with the stopping power I have now, and with better pads should hopefully end up with better stopping power. I may be interested in a single disc 4-pot conversion, since stopping power should be about on par with what I have now, I wouldn't necessarily need to change my MC, and it would reduce cost and weight. Dual discs do look better.
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FYI
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1034
You can add these into the mix they bolt directly up with no modification.
(I used this very caliper on my R65)
They are the standard Brembo FO8 that use a 38 mm dia piston instead of the special 36mm that BMW specified.
Since the are a standard part they are 1/3 the cost
The larger Dia. will also give you more leverage.
You can also shop the other Brembo calipers on this site also
Honestly I have a 38mm Brembo FO8 ,single rotor and Speigler SS line pushed with a 12mm MC and it stops very well.
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I had the rotors on my '82 LS converted to semi-floating a few years ago by Spiegler .
I removed the old rotors before shipping them .
Also, at the time, if you spent $500 or more, return shipping was no charge, I got a set of their flex stainless line kits, for about $140 if I remember correctly .
I believe also, that you can replace the rotors with the Spiegler conversion yourself, you don't have to send them in again .
I also have a set of EBC rotors on my '81 R65, and their ' organic ' brake pads, I have not seen any appreciable increase in dry braking, but wet braking was greatly increased .
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My calipers are fine for now (as long as I am keeping the same diameter rotor), but hopefully this information will be useful to someone else.
Is going with Spiegler worth the extra cost? Right now I'm leaning either EBC or Spiegler. I will get new brake lines after I decide whether to get new handlebars or not, since the length may need to change. Full disclosure: I'm leaning towards going scrambler or street tracker.
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Very attractive R65LS!
I vote for spiegler floating rotors - they work so well! The brake lines are red and everything about this company is good quality. I prefer theirs over EBC.
Expensive for sure but what's your life worth to you?
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Expensive for sure but what's your life worth to you?
[smiley=whistling.gif] No offense intended to ya Ken, but that sounds just like a life insurance salesman pushing for a higher commission! Indeed, my younger brother, by just 11.5 months, lives by his credo that, "If it costs more, it's got to be better". Maybe. Maybe not.
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Question 2: How much smoking from the left cylinder is acceptable? I am getting some smoking around the exhaust nut, but I hear some smoking from the lower cylinder (when using the sidestand) is normal, because oil drains into the combustion chamber. I haven't done a compression test yet, but I will soon. I have no idea how many miles the bike has on it -- I am the 4th owner and am told the odometer stopped working before the 3rd owner purchased it, although it seems to be working now. Odo shows around 3k miles, but the brake disks have a lot more wear than that, although the tires appear to be possibly original and are only maybe half worn. I have yet to inspect the driveshaft splines. I guess what I'm asking is at what point should I consider a rebuild, considering I don't know the history of the engine? Or what tests should I do to determine if a rebuild is necessary?
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You shouldn't get any smoke from the exhaust nut .
There is a metal seal that's supposed to be under the nut, it may be missing, or the nut is not tightened corectly .
The exhaust nuts are known to be issues wuth these bikes, if an anti-seize type compound is not applied to the threads .
It's quite common for the nut to seize onto the threads on the cylinder .
If you can't get the nut to either loosen, or it stops after moving a bit, cut the nut off, or you'll be removing the cylinder heads and having the threads repaired .
I'd perform a compression check, before considering an overhaul of the engine .
The top end may need overhaul, if the bike has accumulated say in excess of 90,000 miles .
'81 and '82 model year bikes had issues with valve recession, don't know whay year your bike is .
The lower end of these engines are quite robust and usually don't need much attention, unless the engine was abused .
There is a date of manufacture molded into the side wall of the tires, it will look something like this 0415, which would be the fourth week of 2015 .
It's your call on how old of tires you want to ride on .
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It will definitely smoke out of the left pot if routinely parked on the side stand. Even if you don't, for some bizarre reason the left pot seems to be favoured by oil from the breather despite the breather pipes being directed to both carbs.
If you find low compression on the left pot even though the bike is relatively low mileage then it might only be a gummed up rings from being in storage.
It's hard to pin down mileage from wear. Old tires are difficult to date because before 2000 the date code didn't indicate which decade they were made. Did that tread pattern even exist when the bike was new. Other things to show signs of wear are foot peg rubbers and the rear wheel splines. On the front discs it's normal for them to groove even at relatively low mileage but if they are down to minimum thickness that doesn't suggest very low mileage.
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Brake rotors are below min thickness in the grooves, but I would need a micrometer to see just how far below. Hard to tell with just calipers. I will buy an exhaust nut wrench so I can either check to see that all the parts are assembled correctly with the exhaust, or snug things up a bit. I tried to find a date code on the tires, but couldn't. There weren't any obvious 4 digit codes that ended in anything this century, so maybe the tires are pre-2000 then. All I know is they're coming off, because they are unsafe. Footpegs and grips show wear, but appear to be the original parts. I have no idea how fast they should wear. Is there anything I can do to free up stuck rings (assuming I have some) short of pulling the jugs? Like pour some marvel Mystery oil down the spark plug holes? I haven't had the valve covers off yet to even adjust the valves. It doesn't seem to be making much power, but I attribute that to the fact that the carbs are probably gummed up. It could be a bad coil I guess. Next week I will go through the carbs and give it a tuneup and see if that makes any difference. Both cylinders seem to be running evenly hot and nothing sounds out of whack. Hopefully a compression check shows everything to be in order.
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My R65 left jug smokin' story:
Last year, a couple guys following on morning rides mentioned, at different times, that there was smoke puffing out the left side muffler. Ruh roh.
Fresh oil didn't improve the situation. Valve lash chech made no diff. Next checked compression. Right side hunky dory. Left side way low. Double ruh roh. Time to pull the heads- both sides.
Quite a bit of carbon buildup in the left combustion chamber and a valve stem was also carbon heavy. Worn out valve guide/s. Fortunately, I had a late model pair of heads stashed so they went to my favorite Butler & Smith trained mechanic for disassembly and checkup. They were in fine fettle.
Next, pulled the jugs and discovered the bottom oil ring on the left side -it looks like a 2-piece ring but isn't -had cracked. The bad ring and loose valve guide bore were the oiling culprits.
A couple sets of iron piston rings -R65s have Nikasil-plated bores- gaskets and o-rings made it good.
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Gummed up rings may free up with use on their own after an Italian tune up but MMO is said to help. I'd put some down the plug hole and some in the fuel. They say to add it to the oil too but I'm not keen on that unless an oil change is due soon.
Pre 2000 there was only a 3 digit date code on tires so for example a date code of 429 means the 42 week week of 1999 or 1989 or 1979!!
I had 3 digit codes on my tires when I first bought the bike.
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Don't fret over the smoke yet
I would get it tuned up and running and ride it and see what happens
I never leave mine on the side stand I always use the center stand
They can load up on the left side if on the side stand
I only use it for dismounting the bike and then I put it on the center right away
I have a 82 and my valves do not recede at all if anything they loosen
Its no fun changing the tires if they still have tubes in them.
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Its no fun changing the tiresif they still have tubes in them.
That's true.
When I changed my original 28 year tires they were so stiff I was concerned about damaging the rims so I cut them off. The rubber is easy enough to cut but the bead wires need seriously good wire cutters or something like a Dremel cutting disc.
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I have no problems changing the tires on my LS wheels. Local independent shop charges me $20 a wheel to take off the old tube and tire, mount and balance the new ones and dispose of the old tire. Doesn't matter if I buy them from him or bring in my own. Can't beat it, drop it off at lunch and pick it up after work. Just to avoid the aggrevation factor it is worth it to me.
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I was looking at brake rotor options again. It looks to me like the EBC rotors are semi-float as well. It doesn't look like the hardware used to secure the disk is reusable, though, so no replacement of just the disk down the road. Can anyone confirm this?
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Question 3: I want to shave some weight off this bike where possible. I have ordered a Lithium battery (I needed a new battery anyway) and found a cheap Valeo starter on ebay. I am also planning on going tubeless when I order new tires. I will also probably swap the mufflers for shorter ones. Short of just removing stuff, are there any other easy or cost effective ways to shed a few pounds (off the bike)?
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You'll need to purchase a Lithium-specific charger for that new battery. They are a bit pricey to match the battery's cost. Have you been reading / seeing the recent news of these Hoverboards bursting into flames? Most all the Lithium batts were Chinese manufactured. May want to confirm your battery selection country of manufacture. Other forum members may chime in on Lithium batteries for daily riders.
One of the best weight shaving ways to improve bike performance is for the rider to drop a few pounds. ::)
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I don't know if this is still an issue or not, but lithium batteries had problems providing enough power to operate the starter below around 55 F .
This was with Shorai batteries .
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The formulation for most lithium motorcycle batteries is LiFePO4, not the Li-ion that tends to explode. I'm willing to risk it. And they do charge with a normal charger, with some limitations. Cold weather is an issue, but I live in a desert climate and rarely will I need to start the bike in freezing weather.
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For the cost I would go with AGL.
Don't get me wrong but AGL has all the placement advantages of LiPo (on its side, upside down etc) and is much, much cheaper.
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It's really not that much cheaper: $130 vs $80. And it saves 12lbs over AGM. Not to mention the size difference will allow me to mount the new battery somewhere hidden if I decide to.
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Question 3: I want to shave some weight off this bike where possible. I have ordered a Lithium battery (I needed a new battery anyway) and found a cheap Valeo starter on ebay. I am also planning on going tubeless when I order new tires. I will also probably swap the mufflers for shorter ones. Short of just removing stuff, are there any other easy or cost effective ways to shed a few pounds (off the bike)?
Battery and starter are good places to lose weight although personally I would have tried a smaller capacity AGM say a much cheaper 12AH which should work fine with the more efficient starter. I'd then spend the balance of funds on some other area of weight reduction
Wheels, tyres and tubes are great places to lose weight as you get two bangs for your buck with lower overall weight and lower rotational inertia both of which improve acceleration and braking, Shame there isn't a cheap way of using lighter wheels as well. I think LS wheel are little bit lighter but snowflakes are ridiculously heavy and the fact that they are heavier than the spoked wheels they replaced is something of a disgrace. I don't know how the weight of tubed tires compare with tubeless but the heavy duty tubes in mine weigh several pounds each.
With a better caliper it must be possible to make a single disc set up work as well as stock twin discs which is another possible weight reduction that should also have a dynamic benefit of less unsprung weight.
The composition mudguards are heavy and lighter alloy ones would save a few pounds.
For mufflers to be on the weight reduction list for me I'd need some assurance that there wasn't going to be a negative impact on performance other wise it would seem to defeat the object of the exercise.
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Good point about the mufflers. The way I understand it the stock exhaust is tuned for specific rpm's so that when a sound wave is reflected back up the exhaust at the tuning rpm the negative pressure phase arrives at the valves as the valves are opening, helping suck more exhaust out of the cylinder. I would lose that effect with shorter mufflers, but I should gain a little across all rpm's due to the new mufflers being free-er floating overall. But that's just justification for having what I think are better looking mufflers. Hopefully they aren't too loud.
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It's really not that much cheaper: $130 vs $80. /quote]
Oh I wish.....
Whilst I wonder about your AGL price - $80US converts to around $111AU, and we buyr AGLs for about $AU100.
I am reallly, really fascinated by your LiPo price. You see $US130 is around $AU180 and the cheapest price I have seen for a LiPo battery that was start rated and had the on-board electronics to allow direct connection to a "legacy" charging system meant for a Wet Cell was somewhere north of $AU380.
Could you supply some model numbers and supplier as at that price I would seriously consider a LiPo for the R100 when it goes back together.
OTOH. If the battery you are quoting is not start rated than it will not live long meeting start loads and if it doesn't have the electronic gizmology to deal with charging and cell balancing, then what you will have is not so much a battery as an IED.
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Been checking prices (US Dollars)
Shorai drop in replacement for R65 - $72.53 on special $275.95
http://www.batterygiant.com/motorcycle-battery/BMW/R65/LFX27L3-BS12
An eBay seller at $202.00
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lightweight-Lithium-Powersports-Battery-DLFP-50N18L-A-for-84-95-BMW-R65-Apps-/311406487191
Same battery at $250
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Battery-BikeMaster-DLFP-50N18L-A-BMW-K100-K75-R100-R60-R65-R75-R80-R90-/361303015792
Now we are cooking, LiFePo4 at $171.
http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX18L1-BS12.html
Getting there - also LiFePo4 and $150
http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/ss51913.html
And these guys have a price range of $404 right down to $105.
http://www.revzilla.com/parts/1980-bmw-r65?page=3
Ok, I found myself wondering why the price difference, obviously there is a price point for LiIon batteries and the newer (and cheaper) LiFePo4 batteries. But why the range?
Then it clicked - the number of cells and whether those cells are merely hooked up in series or, with a greater number of cells, if they are wired series/parallel (the second having the obvious advantage of lower individual load per cell) - depending on price a 12V Lithium battery will have 4 or 8 cells (the standard output of a Li based cell is between 3.7 and 4.2 volts).
I have two thoughts.
Before I bought any Li based cell I would want some real-world results based testing as to how long they last and what they are like in service. Even more so on a battery from the bargain basement end og the spectrum. I well remember my first foray into AGL, that battery lasted a whole 9 months, well at least it was cheap. It also failed on a wet cold day (the wet is usual the cold is not for where I live) and doing a one-man push start on even something as benign as an R65 isn't fun when you are nearly 60.
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http://shoraipower.com/lfx14a2-bs12-p66
Purchased on amazon for $128.33 shipped. It is a motorsports battery, designed for starting duty, 8 cell for better cranking. This one is a small form factor, so to put it in the battery tray you need to put some foam or something in there to hold it (it comes with lots of foam for this). I probably should have gotten the L2 version instead of the A2, because the polarity makes more sense. Some other brands to consider are Antigravity, Ballistic, WPS and Earth X.
Regarding cell count, you are correct. You need enough cells in series to get the correct (~12V) voltage, but the cells can only provide so much cranking power. To increase cranking amps they add cells and wire them series/parallel. Some manufacturers use round cells, and others use prismatic (rectangular) cells. You can get the batteries with a case/housing that is a drop in fit for the battery you are replacing, or you can get them with a case designed to just fit the "guts" inside. The direct replacement ones typically cost more.
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Question 4: my driveline has a real rubberband feel to it. I don't like it. I assume this means the spring or anti-shock parts are worn out. Can I replace the driveshaft with one from an earlier airhead that does not have this feature? Is that wise, or would it be better to replace the worn parts instead? Is there some way of diagnosing what exactly the problem is short of opening it up?
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If you put the bike on the centerstand, gearbox in gear, and raise the rear wheel off the ground - how much rotation/play do you feel before you detect the resistance of the engine? Put the gearbox into neutral and rotate the wheel back and forth - does the amount of slack seem similar?
The spring in the cush drive on the later driveshafts is pretty stout.. they seldom break but when they do, one usually can feel a significant "clunk" if it is broken and the ends separate & come together. It will require a good size press/spring compressor to service - if you want to try to take on that challenge.
But first, be sure of your diagnosis
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My center stand is missing the spring(s) so I have it zip tied up out of the way for now, but I'll figure out how to get the rear wheel off the ground to check it out. Looking elsewhere on the web it seems the driveline "cush" spring can wear out. Is this common? I would imagine that a properly functioning driveshaft spring should only rarely be felt and only under abusive acceleration or shifting. Am I wrong to assume this? I feel the lash under all but very gentle acceleration.
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It's not common for the drive shaft shock absorber spring to break or wear and if it did I don't think it would produce a rubber band feeling so I'd say you are correct in assuming it should be relatively unobtrusive. Could it be something else you are detecting like clutch slip ?
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Just a thought here...
Motorcyclists that are perhaps late in discovering the simple pleasures of owning an Airhead BMW, particularly those people that have only ridden more modern bikes, find and or imagine all sorts of concerns about the Airhead transmission and drive line. Operating an old Bavarian tractor takes a bit of getting used to.
A certain amount of driveline lash will always be there. Careful shifting, by matching revs to road speed and gear selection, pre-loading the shift lever and holding the lever in position until the complete gear change has been made will eliminate most, if not all of, gearbox clash.
Then there's that large, relatively heavy, automotive-style flywheel that doesn't want to slow down. The clutch adds its own flywheel effect.
Transferring drive to the rear wheel adds more opportunities what with spline gears and the crown gear.
A different world from the hi-tech Japanese and newer Euro bikes. I shift my Triumph Triple with an entirely different style.
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Motorcyclists that are perhaps late in discovering the simple pleasures of owning an Airhead BMW
So true Monte............. I came from worn out Nortons when I went "Beemer". That ol' used R50 with the funny forks was worlds ahead of anything Norton. It was quiet & smooth in comparison. If you went from a modern rocketship 4 cylinder bike to an Airhead it would scream tractor with every mile.
Once you figure out you can't pass anything, anywhere...... it becomes a VERY nice tractor LOL
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Copy all, Joe! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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The only other bike I've owned was a Yamaha TW200. Japanese yes, high-tech no. But it was a wet clutch with probably relatively little mass to the flywheel.
I don't think any springs or parts are broken, hence the rubber-band feeling and not clunking of some sort. It may very well be user error, but it seems to me that a correctly functioning driveline wouldn't behave the way mine does. Accelerating in 1st gear is a little like a novice stick shift driver with the torque from the engine loading up the lash in the driveline, then the driveline catching up and releasing it's stored energy and repeat a few times until the bike and engine settle into the same pace. At speed there are no issues unless I flog it a little, probably due to the lack of torque in higher gears to load the driveline.
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Golly gee whiz! So much Airhead knowledge in such a very short time. Impressive.
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For what its worth, if you are certain that the rotors are below minimum in their grooves, then replacements do seem warranted, however my original disk was grooved just like the ones on your LS when I was exploring my options. I found an outfit called Truedisk LLC. Motorcycle Brake Rotor Resurfacing, (www.truedisk.net). They are in Michigan, a fellow named Tom Tokarz runs the place. I had the rotor back in about 2 weeks - looking as good as new. Much cheaper than having the rotor replaced by Spiegler, (as long as it can be resurfaced.) If you are not certain, Tom will evaluate and respond before any work is done.
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I've been riding the R65LS more lately, mostly due to the fact that my car crapped out on me. Riding it more has pushed me to address some its issues. I have new tires on the way and brake rotors and pads have shown up. Ideally I will be converting to tubeless when the new tires go on, so I probably need some stems and maybe a way to ream the stem hole. I figured out that my voltage regulator wasn't putting out enough volts to keep my lithium battery happy, so a new adjustable regulator is on the way. I've been going through and doing all the tuneup adjustments to the valves, timing and carbs. It's running much smoother now. I need to find time to lube all my splines and bearings to improve the shifting and steering. All my electrical is working now. I really wasn't planning on this being a standard mode of transportation until after I had a chance to pull the engine and transmission and go over all the little stuff first.
It's a fun bike to ride. I haven't had it up to freeway speeds on account of the old tires. I get some wobbles if I take my hands off the bars at about 30mph. Hopefully new tires solves that, but I still need to check the head tube bearings. I'm understanding the "rubber cow" nickname better. What are the best ways to combat the flex? I can tell that my front forks need some attention, and my rear shocks don't look like any of the currently available options I've found. I'll have to post a picture to see if anybody recognizes them before I replace them with something else, because the rear suspension needs attention as well. Oh yeah, and my speedometer died on my first longer ride. It's been fun, though.
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What was your decision on brake rotors ???
With the front fork brace you have installed, I don't think the fork is flexing, possibly more tire condition/balance issue, steering bearing adjustment .
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Fork brace is actually off right now, as well as the front fender. That probably has something to do with it. I'll check that steering is tight and report back after the new tires are installed.
What tire pressures are you guys running? I've heard that airheads like higher pressures, around 40psi. I'll be running dual sport tires (Pirelli MT90-AT) which would typically be run at lower pressures around mid 20's for on road. What would you guys run for 80/20 street riding on dual sport tires?
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New tires are installed. I had to use tubes because the tires I bought are tube type, so that cost me a couple pounds. I'm not going total weight weenie, though. All my bearings checked out, including the head tube, so I don't think that's where my deceleration wobble was coming from. Early tests are that the new tires has solved it, though. I went with 120/80 rear and 110/80 front. I know that's a little wider than stock (well, a lot wider in front), but it doesn't seem to be a problem. If anything the steering feels lighter. Maybe the wider front is a big enough diameter change to affect the geometry, or maybe the new tires have less of a flat spot, although the old ones seemed fine. Clearance between the rear tire and the swing arm is roughly 6mm. Pirelli specifies the max mounted width for the 120 tire as 125mm, but it looks to be a little less than that on the LS wheels. Oh yeah, I painted the wheels black, just to piss off the purists. :P
For brakes I went with SBC floating rotors and organic pads. No more squealing, which is nice. Stopping seems about the same but the handle pull feels shorter before max grab. They aren't really bedded in yet so things may change.
I had a fair amount of trouble tuning the carbs so here's what finally worked for me. First, I adjusted the valves. Next I made sure the bean can was clean and appeared to be functioning correctly. Then I got the timing set. You can't really set the timing without the valves adjusted or the bean can functioning because both can influence the timing. I made some spark plug "extenders" by grinding down the heads of some appropriately sized (M3?) screws so I could thread them into the tops of the spark plugs and then clip the plug wires to the screws. Trying to short the cylinders and adjust the carbs by ear was beyond my skill set, so I adjusted the idle purposely high and clipped a test lead between the extender and a cylinder fin, one cylinder at a time. With the test lead in place I adjusted the idle to about 800rpm, warmed up of course, running on only one cylinder (due to the test lead shorting the plug of the opposite cylinder). This way I could easily hear to adjust the air/fuel mixture to the optimal setting. With both air/fuel mixtures adjusted I brought the idle back to a reasonable level with both cylinders running. Then, using a homebrew U-tube manometer I was able to easily adjust the idle sync. Be sure to leave probably at least 2' of height above the fluid level in the manometer if using ATF for the fluid. Last, with the manometer still hooked up I set the off-idle sync with the cable barrel adjusters. The bike starts up quicker now and doesn't need as much choke. It runs quieter, sounds better, idle s more stable and pulls harder. Best "mod" yet. ;D
After brakes and tires I think I'm good to pass safety now. A couple more fluids to check/change and I'll consider things good for a bit.
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First, I adjusted the valves. Next I made sure the bean can was clean and appeared to be functioning correctly. Then I got the timing set. You can't really set the timing without the valves adjusted
I'm curious, how do you figure that?
I made some spark plug "extenders" by grinding down the heads of some appropriately sized (M3?) screws so I could thread them into the tops of the spark plugs and then clip the plug wires to the screws. Trying to short the cylinders and adjust the carbs by ear was beyond my skill set, so I adjusted the idle purposely high and clipped a test lead between the extender and a cylinder fin, one cylinder at a time. With the test lead in place I adjusted the idle to about 800rpm, warmed up of course, running on only one cylinder (due to the test lead shorting the plug of the opposite cylinder). This way I could easily hear to adjust the air/fuel mixture to the optimal setting. With both air/fuel mixtures adjusted I brought the idle back to a reasonable level with both cylinders running.
If you actually wanted to set out to destroy a late model electronic ignition system, what you wrote above would be a very good way to go about it. I am very surprised that it survived the experience.
I'm pretty sure that the prcedure you have used was not intended for anything other than those models with a magneto ignition - put another way, nothing after around 1969.
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I blame YouTube for my improper education. Out of curiosity what part(s) of the ignition system would I be destroying? The spark always has a path to ground, albeit not via the spark plug.
As for the valves and bean can affecting timing, the bean can is pretty obvious that if it is sticking then timing will be slow to advance or possibly never advance fully during acceleration and at rpm, and too advanced during deceleration and idle if the springs can't retract the weights properly. For the valves, if the adjustment is off they will either be opening or closing early or late, depending on which way they are off, which can have a similar effect as the spark being early or late. I guess you would still be able to time the engine correctly if only the valves are off because the timing is based on the crank, not the camshaft.
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Well, of all wonderful things to happen, today I was detoured from my leisurely surface street ride into work onto the freeway for a couple of miles. Luckily I had just put the new tires on or I would have turned back. On probably its first freeway ride in over a decade my transmission (or clutch?) started squealing like a banshee. I haven't been able to diagnose the problem yet.
The symptoms are a loud squeal and drag when the bike is in neutral and the clutch is let out. With the clutch in all is quiet and normal, but when the clutch is let out the bike wants to move forward, almost as if it is still in gear somehow. Shifting is much more difficult now and I have to keep pressure on the shifter as I let out the clutch to get it to shift. In all gears I get the squeal as well, but it gets progressively less prominent the higher the gear, meaning it has something to do with engine speed rather than wheel speed. The clutch still works like normal and doesn't seem to be sticking, but I'm not ruling out the clutch plate starting to disintegrate or something. I started a thread over at advrider to see if any of the other airhead guys has any ideas.
What I've tried so far:
Checked the fluid and it appears clean, but a little low. Re-adjusted the clutch as per the recommended procedure. Banged on the case a little with a rubber mallet to see if I could free up anything that might be sticking. Put the front wheel against a wall with the bike in gear and let out the clutch. Rode it around a little (gently) between "fixes" to verify that nothing seems to help. Any ideas? Tomorrow I'll drain and fill the tranny fluid with new. If that doesn't magically fix things it's looking like I may be staring down a transmission swap here in the parking lot.
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I blame YouTube for my improper education. Out of curiosity what part(s) of the ignition system would I be destroying? The spark always has a path to ground, albeit not via the spark plug.
Even though both the primary and secondary windings have very low resistance (and especially so the latest iteration), they do not present a dead short.
Grounding the coil increases the overall load putting both the coil itself and the ITU at risk.
But don't take my word for it - see Snowbum's comments on the "ground the plug lead" method of carb sync.
A For the valves, if the adjustment is off they will either be opening or closing early or late, depending on which way they are off, which can have a similar effect as the spark being early or late. I guess you would still be able to time the engine correctly if only the valves are off because the timing is based on the crank, not the camshaft.
Correct - which is why any tuneup session starts with verify correct operation of advance retard and then is followed by setting the timing, then valve clearance, and last you do carb balance and idle setup.
Believe me, you feel pretty "special" when you have spent a morning carefully getting the carbs balanced and idling nicely, then discover that as a result of cam chain wear the timing is a bit retarded, so you advance the timing which then results in a 2,000rpm idle.
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I would be pulling the tranny apart and checking it out before you do any more damage.
Any more than seals and bearings gets expensive
Transmission work does require a few special tools to do correctly
The bearing plate is the most costly
I made my own flange puller
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Tony
I just read Snowbums article on the shorting method and i think he is good as long as he keeps a path to ground for the spark
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The symptoms are a loud squeal and drag when the bike is in neutral and the clutch is let out. With the clutch in all is quiet and normal, but when the clutch is let out the bike wants to move forward, almost as if it is still in gear somehow. Shifting is much more difficult now and I have to keep pressure on the shifter as I let out the clutch to get it to shift. In all gears I get the squeal as well, but it gets progressively less prominent the higher the gear, meaning it has something to do with engine speed rather than wheel speed. The clutch still works like normal and doesn't seem to be sticking, but I'm not ruling out the clutch plate starting to disintegrate or something. I started a thread over at advrider to see if any of the other airhead guys has any ideas.
I had a look at the responses you got on advrider. Anton Largiader knows his stuff so I would take the possibility that a gear has seized on the shaft seriously. And I wouldn't ride it.
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Having a transmission seize on you while riding brings back memories of things getting jammed in tires of bikes as a kid. Specifically the time my buddy was going downhill buzzing his foot against the tread of his front tire until his shoe got sucked up into the fork, causing him to do a beautifully executed front flip, landing on his butt in the middle of the road. I remember listening to the soothing buzzzzzzzzzz of his shoe against the tire and when the sound turned from a buzz into a skidding sound, looking up in time to catch the acrobatics. The look in his face as he sat there in the middle of the road was priceless. ;D
Yeah, Anton does seem to know his stuff, and his diagnosis seems the most plausible. I can't come up with another type of failure that would have the same symptoms, namely still trying to pull forward while in neutral, other than internal to the transmission where things are binding and rubbing when they shouldn't be.
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Initial results after a drain and fill of the transmission are promising. The fluid was a little lower than I thought, probably half full is all. Fluid was thick like honey and mostly clear. No sparkles in the fluid and only a little grey sludge on the drain plug, but there were two tiny chunks about 1.5mm across on the plug. Thinking that there might be more chunks that may have worked themselves into the gear train I rolled the bike back several times, popping the clutch with the bike in various gears, In hopes that I could help them work themselves back out. Shifting was improved, so I started it up. The squeal and lunge in neutral were gone, as was the squeal in 1st and 2nd as I rode it around the parking lot gingerly. Maybe I dodged a bullet. I think I'll ease it home and change the fluid another time or two to make sure there aren't any more chunks floating around, but hopefully fresh fluid is what it was squealing for.
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You might have got lucky. The gears are not submerged in oil even when it's at the correct level, rather the gears lower down pick up the oil and transfer it by splash to the gears higher up in the box. The oil level is therefore critical and it may be that if you were missing half of it the gears weren't getting lubed at all. When I fill my box I go for level with the lower edge of the hole and then just a tad more for luck.
Take a look at this nice pic I found and note the position of the level hole. I think it illustrates the critical nature of the oil level nicely.
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Yeah, that picture illustrates it nicely. I'll be more diligent in the future. I was kind of forced into putting this on the road and obviously overlooked a few of the basics.
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Check you neutral safety switch they are notorious for leaking.
My trans was run low on oil before I had gotten the bike.
I took it apart because the bearings were a little rough and this is what i found
All of the seals looked like this
All I had to replace was the seals , bearings ,springs and the roller on the shifter cam (of course i had to reshim it)
Darn tough transmission :o
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Well I changed the fluid again over the weekend and didn't find any chunks or grit on the drain plug. I've probably put 100 miles or so on it since, and haven't noticed any issues with the transmission. I still plan to open it up and replace the bearings sometime in the near future, but for now I just need transportation. I am getting a little seepage from the gear shift hole, but not enough to worry about.
I did have it cut out on me a few times. I cleaned a couple of connectors, messed with the kill switch, and added new thermal grease to the ICU (it was completely dry) and haven't had a problem since. I ordered a new coil to replace my pre-cracked crack-o-matic just in case. I've heard a new coil might help the engine start up quicker or idle more smoothly, both of which would be welcome.
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Okay, time for another question. Question 5: what free or nearly free performance tricks work on our airheads? I've been having troubles starting my LS when it's cold. Having done all I can with tuning the carbs I've started looking at the ignition components. Long story short I just got done indexing and side gapping the plugs, which seems to have helped some. These are old racers tricks that probably don't work on modern engines that have computer modeled intake flows and centrally located spark plugs. Since our plugs are way off to the side of the combustion chamber it only made sense to me to present the plug spark to the main mass of air+fuel in the combustion chamber (indexing the plugs). All it cost me was pulling the plugs, marking where the electrodes were, and then putting them back in the cylinder where the electrode was closest to the top. I got lucky and by swapping plugs they went from mostly wrong to almost perfect. The side-gapping was just because I had read about racers having success with it in the past on other engines. Anyhow, it seems with advances in technology and knowledge there are probably other tricks that would work as well.
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Cold hard starting, do you have the original black and gray ignition coil ???
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Yes, but my new red Dyna just showed up in the mail today. I ordered some new wires from bmwires on eBay as well, since my existing wires measured 9.5k ohms and 7.6k ohms and were the carbon core type. New wires are copper core, silicone jacket, with 5k resistor caps. I'll install both when the wires get here. Spark should go from kinda white to fat and blue, I hope. ;D
If my spark is fat and blue at .025" gap, would it make sense to open up the gap a little, say .032", as long as the spark remains healthy? What's the widest gap you guys are running?
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If my spark is fat and blue at .025" gap, would it make sense to open up the gap a little, say .032", as long as the spark remains healthy?
I tend to think along the same lines but it's curious that BMW didn't do it when they changed from points to electronic ignition. Even though the new 1.5 ohm dual output coil would have more than doubled the spark energy they left the pug gap the same. Because I couldn't understand why they left the gap unchanged I once asked Snowbum directly why that was. The only explanation he gave was it allowed for igniting weaker mixtures. That's true enough as the optimum strength for easiest ignition is very rich at 11:1 and carb settings did weaken about that time to meet emissions targets.
I would still at the very least open up the gap to the maximum end of the range specified which is 0.028"