The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Adrian on October 27, 2016, 05:58:12 AM
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Once again I have a small problem - fitting the Pivot Pin for the Swing Arm - as you can see from the pictures it appears to be sticking out from the frame about 2 thread pitches. To get to this point I needed a lots of strength with the allan key - I can't remember if this was normal the last time I did this about 15 years ago. Or what it was like when I pulled it apart.
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The dust caps fit okay but if the Pin is further out by only 3 thread pitches it won't fit. I feel this isn't right as you see it. Any advice thanks ....... Adrian
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BREAKING NEWS ------- I have just put a Vernier Caliper across the threads just before the unthreaded section of the Pin. Also inside the back of the threaded section on the frame. The Pin is too large to go thru the frame - but I have managed to free up the threads so that the Pin now sits just inside the recess.
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DISCUSS lol lol
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Ah ?
I would check that the bearings are set properly onto the swing arm on both sides. (remove the inner race, and check that the outer race is seating properly on the recess.). On the right hand side there is a metal shim used to seal the hole in order for the grease not to fill the tube. Check if it is seated properly and not blocking the outer race to seat.
Then, I would check if the other end of the swing arm is installed properly and if the play between the swing arm and the frame is equal on both side.
If yes, and one pin is still protruding too much, I'm puzzled...
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Hi George - the problem I have is the Pin not screwing into the frame past the point that you see. The bike is completely stripped at the moment as I'm beginning the process of reassembly of the frame and running parts . I have been checking the threads around the frame to make sure they still work okay after Powder Coating. These two threads are the only ones to give me problems -
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I assume that the Pin should screw completely thru the frame and not meet any resistance at all - or at least screw in easily to the point where it sits inside the frame.
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Its a bugger :-)
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Been following this topic of yours on the Airhead Beemers site. Good advice you've received there regarding the use of a tap to clean the powder coat residue and assorted gunk from the swing arm threads. Sure don't want to force the pins and booger up threads. Good to see your '84 coming together.
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Well, there is some powder coating on the threads.
DO NOT use the pin to clean this coating. It will damage the threads on the pin.
Instead buy a thread file (a square metal rod having "threads" of different pitch onto each face. )
And use it to slowly rub the powder coat from the thread.
Use as little force as possible and be careful because you do not want to remove chips of coating which would be place for rust attack...
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Thanks Montmil - I have now put a Vernier across the threads at the non threaded end of the Pin - it seems the Pin is too large to go all the way thru although I have managed to get the Pin just inside the recess area by wire brushing (dremel) the threads - is it possible the Pin is too large to go thru? I seem to remember this from he last time I did the bearings - about 15 years ago when I had the same problem - or so my memory is telling me.
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Swap the pins and see what result you get, it will narrow it down to either the threads, or the pin .
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Hi again. Here's the thing. I can now screw both of the pins into the frame on both sides. They screw in just far enough to fit within the recess and clear the frame. Then they are too tight to screw in any more.
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When screwing them in from the inner side they both ~ in either thread ~ only screw in about a turn or so.
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The threads are clean and on the vernier the threads see to I fat to fit through completely. So it's,clear that the pins are not designed to screw all the way thru.
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I now remember this from the last time I did this work some 20 years ago..
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It seems that this is how it is for this frame :-)
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I just checked all 3 of my R65's and the end of the pins are about 10 mm below the metal that the plastic cap fits on to .
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Thanks for that Bob. My pins are definitely too fat to screw thru the frame beyond where they sit after tightening. They are maybe 2 mil inside the recess. Perhaps the frame is different on this 1984 model like it is for the race cups area of the steering bearings.
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That's the only explanation I can think off for the differences. :-P
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Okay I bit the bullet - as it were. I visited my local Tool Emporium today and have ordered a Tap. Should have it by the end of next week. Hopefully this will fix the problem and I can move on :-)
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Okay I bit the bullet - as it were. I visited my local Tool Emporium today and have ordered a Tap. Should have it by the end of next week. Hopefully this will fix the problem and I can move on :-)
Shudder!
Cancel that order and buy a couple of bolts. Then using your hacksaw cut a number of grooves endwise on the bolts - if your hands are steady and your blade sharp you may be even able to cut a couple of "V" channels into the threads of the bolt. Congratulations you have just created a thread cleaning bolt, Give the threads you have just cut a quick cleanup with a thread file and then thread into the frame - take it just past the point where it gets tight and then undo - clean the threads with a wire bush and repeat.
Learned this trick to clean out crankshaft pulley bolt threads on VWs, Three or four bolts will cost you a fraction of what a tap will cost - and you probably got the wrong tap anyway, did you order a lead, intermediate or bottoming tap? You should have ordered bottoming as it is the only one that will correctly fully form (well reform) the threads at the extreme end of the hole.
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Hi Tony - I bought an intermediate tap as the thread has a clear exit point. This was recommended by the tool guy. I looked at a thread cleaning file but they are nearly $60 to buy whereas the Tap is only $30. I have been cleaning out the threads with my Dremel and very small rotary wire brushes which helped a lot but of course aren't cleaning the threads out fully.
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So I'm just following the advice I have been given on other forums. I know that I must be very careful using the tap and turn only a little at a time when it meets resistance. I will try it first on the locking nut to make sure that the tap is properly made. It's really much cheaper to buy a new nut if it all goes pear shaped.
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I have managed to clean out the first half of the threads allowing the Pin to screw in by hand very easily but then at this point it tarts to get stiff and then the pin needs an Allen key to get it to it stopping point which is about 2 mm inside the recess. Every one tells me that the pin should screw thru the threads without any resistance so of course that's the target.
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I'm still confused as the Vernier clearly shows that the exit of the threads is slightly smaller than the threaded section of the pin nearest the plain part of the shaft. In the middle of the threaded section of the pin it is considerably fatter than the exit point. Is it possible that these 1984 twin shock R65 models were slightly different to other R65s???
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I haven't found any photos in either the Clymer or Haines manuals showing the depth of the Pin so I have nothing to guide me. Anyone out there like to take a picture of the pin in situ on their bike for me? So I can see how deep the pin sits inside the recess. I would appreciate this a lot --- thanks
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I took a thousand photos of the bike as a took it apart but not one showing the pin - :-(
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I would always try Tony's bolt method first if only because taps can sometimes cut oversize and you end up with a slack thread.
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Hi Barry I will try to buy a couple of M20 x 1.5 bolt too at my local mega hardware store - Its too late for the Tap as it was ordered specially and its paid for now. I can only go by the advice I get given - not being an expert. Some guys have gone down the Tap route and said they have no problems. I guess its all about trying everything and hoping something works well. I'm still confused as to how the Pin is obviously fatter than the exit point on the thread though.
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Is it possible that these 1984 twin shock R65 models were slightly different to other R65s???
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In a word - No.
I have a 1984 r65 and when i recently had the swingarm out i noted no difference as between our older r65 and my R100.
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Okay thanks Tony. I guess it's head down and bum up time. I haven't found anyone local to sell me a couple of M20 x 1.5 bolts. So that's one idea not going to work. So it's gonna be up to the tap.
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Update time - the tap arrived and it worked exactly as expected - gentle persuasion and all the crap came out of the threads. Well worth the $21 Aussie dollars -)
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I underestimated the influx of Chinese tooling. I see that even on fleabay a 21x1.5 tap allegedly made of high speed steel they can be had for around what you paid.
I had a price of around $60 fixed in my head - that being what I paid for a quality 17mm tap several years ago.
At $20 that tap was a better bet than mucking about with bolts, but I would not ever try using it to cut a real thread, trying to pick broken carbon steel our of holes is not fun.
May I ask if the manufacturer was sufficiently proud of their product to put a name and material composition on it? I've just spent 5 minutes on eBay looking at a fake P&N M20 tap for sale brand new from China for $AU8.
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Is it 21 or 18 mm dia ?
IRC it was 18 mm pitch 1.5, no ?
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May I ask if the manufacturer was sufficiently proud of their product to put a name and material composition on it? I've just spent 5 minutes on eBay looking at a fake P&N M20 tap for sale brand new from China for $AU8.
Hi Tony - I bought the tool from Total Tools here in Elizabeth. The product is made by Sutton Tools in Victoria. It's made from Tungsten Chrome Alloy. The size is MF20 x 1,5 and its the Intermediate Tap. I chose the inter as I already had about 2/3 of the thread clear and working okay. It's a perfect fit and with gentle pressure and turning and releasing - it cut thru all the crap and old paint/powder coat okay.
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I think its a well made product and I'll be buying a few more different sizes to clear out the few threads that are on the frame.
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Is it 21 or 18 mm dia ?
IRC it was 18 mm pitch 1.5, no ?
Hi George - the size is MF20 x 1.5. My response to Tony above tells the story of it's quality :-)
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Onwards and upwards Adrian!
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Yep Chris - spraying the front mudguard and seat tray at the moment - and spending too much money with Motorworks in the UK lol lol lol
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I just though of another area you may want to clean up after having the frame powdercoated .
The main grounding or earthing point for most of the circuits, is one of the mounting screws that secure the voltage regulator to the frame, make sure the threads are free of powdercoat .
I never liked this arrangement for a major ground, I added a heavy gauge wire from this point, back to the negative terminal on the battery, just a thought .
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Thanks Bob - I know the screw hole you mean - and I like the idea of taken a wire to the battery to guarantee a proper earth. Thanks for the advice :-)
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If I can throw in two-bobs worth as well - I'd use a direct to battery in addition to a carefully cleaned standard earthing arrangements.
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Yep my thoughts exactly Tony :-)
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I hear you re spending money with Motorworks...[ch128543] I think I may almost own the company at the current spend rate!
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Me too Chris - so far I've spent over $2000 Aussie with maybe a few hundred more to go. Plus having the engine stripped and overhauled by a local dealership. But it's worth the effort of course. This bike will see me out for another 10 or 15 years I reckon :-)
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Here's the way I see it, how much for a 'new' 650cc BMW? I think UK retail is around £8k standard spec, I'll have a fully restored zero hour engined classic that will increase in value over time and be fun to ride.
My bike will have cost way less than a new one... :)
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I haven't really thought about its value - I love the old girl - I bought her in 1992 - rebuilt here in 1996 - so I'm having fun again.
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I've been ill for a long time so that's why its been mothballed and all boxed up for a few years. But I'm making myself finish it off now that I have some inheritance money from the Uk. Its enough to finish everything and maybe have some left over.
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When I'm too old to ride it - even if its only local - I'll swap for an electric scooter lol lol lol - Assuming I'll be too old and doddery to drive my car too.
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I used one of those brass toothbrushes and some kind of solvent (WD 40?). I cleaned both male and female threads. No powder coat only gummed up with crud.
The swing arm must be held tightly. If the pins are contacting the bearings and centering the swing arm when under correct torque, they are working.
I did this six months ago so don't remember all the details.
Bob