The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: peteremc on September 24, 2016, 07:46:56 AM
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Up front I'm admitting I know very little (like next to nothing) about electrics, other than the very basics, but have a problem that the brains trust here may be able to help me with.
I have an 82 R65LS which has been off the road for a couple of years, but has been recently revived. All was good when I took it off the road.
Current problem is that I've ridden it for a couple of days, ironing out small problems after being garaged for so long and today it stopped.
Just prior to this I had done about a 20 klm (12 mile) ride and when I went to start it after 20 klms, the battery did not have enough power to turn the starter. A push start was easy and much appreciated. At about 19 klms on the return trip (yep, close to home, but not close enough! was where it stopped. The battery was completely dead. Nada, zero, zilch, nothing.
The rescuing service helped by jump-starting bike. The dead battery was holding about 10 volts and then tested the charge the bike was providing and this came up at just about 11 volts.
So, to my simplistic mind, the bike's charging system is not providing enough power to run the bike and is therefore relying on pulling some charge from the battery which is eventually going flat.
Any comments, observations, fixes, advice…?
From someone who knows little in this area, any advice will help to build my knowledge.
Thanks
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How old is the battery ? I would check the connections to the battery and starter relay I don't think you would register a much higher voltage on the generator if the battery is toast.
Lou
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The rescuing service helped by jump-starting bike. The dead battery was holding about 10 volts and then tested the charge the bike was providing and this came up at just about 11 volts.
So, to my simplistic mind, the bike's charging system is not providing enough power to run the bike and is therefore relying on pulling some charge from the battery which is eventually going flat.
I'd fully charge the battery then have it load tested to access it's condition.
You can't make an accurate assessment of the charging system unless the battery is truly fully charged so you can't judge it properly on that 11 volt reading.
If the battery tests out OK or with a new battery take the voltage measurement again at 3-4000 RPM. If the result is not at least in the high 13's then you will know for sure that you have a problem.
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When you turn the key to the run position, does the red GEN light illuminate ??
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Lucky Lou - Brand new battery – 2 weeks old. Not exactly a reputable brand but when you’re lucky to get 2 years out of any battery these days, I’m wary of throwing a lot of money at them.
Thanks Barry, these are the sort of practical tips I need to isolate the problem.
Bob, I have installed a single unit speedo/tacho with warning lights included, but the only thing it does not have is a charge warning light. But, I have the wires installed to take one and we hooked up a test light which did exactly what the charge warning light did when I took the bike off the road i.e. light lit up in the run position and when the bike was at idle and as soon as the revs came off idle the light went out.
I have to add that I am suspicious about the battery. From the seller it seemed like it was very slow to take up charge. It was on charge for most of the day at the mechanic’s workshop last week and trickle charged overnight that night and still only got to 11.5 volts. Maybe a dud battery.
So, from here I’ll fully charge the battery and run the test again at around 3-4000 rpm and see what that tells me.
Cheers
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trickle charged overnight that night and still only got to 11.5 volts. Maybe a dud battery.
Better get a "fresh bullet" . A charged battery should read 12.7 volts. Check your meter to make sure that's not the culprit. Go measure your car battery and make sure your meter is giving good readings.
You could have a dead cell and 11.5 is all it can do with 5 of them working. Let's cross our fingers that the Batt. is the only problem, but maybe not. With a good battery you should be able to see 12.7V not running and high 13's to mid 14's running at 3000K at the battery
good luck
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Not exactly a reputable brand but when you’re lucky to get 2 years out of any battery these days, I’m wary of throwing a lot of money at them.
I think that's a good philosophy in a hot climate and even though I don't live in a hot climate it's what I do. Something in me refuses to pay more for an 18AH bike battery than I do for a car battery 3 or 4 times the size. I'm nearly 3 years into a cheap generic battery that cost £30 and it still performs like new.
Does sound like you have a dud battery though.
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When you ride the bike, there is nothing connected to the wires for the red GEN light ???
You just connected a test light to check the system out ??
Without a bulb, or resistor in that circuit, the charging system does not work .
An LED bulb will not work either, unless a resistor is in the circuit as well .
http://www.bmwmotorcycletech.info/genlampresistor.htm
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Bob, I have installed a single unit speedo/tacho with warning lights included, but the only thing it does not have is a charge warning light. But, I have the wires installed to take one and we hooked up a test light which did exactly what the charge warning light did when I took the bike off the road i.e. light lit up in the run position and when the bike was at idle and as soon as the revs came off idle the light went out.
The thing will not charge unless there is a bulb or a resistor of the right value in the circuit - the rotor coils ground through the warning light circuit.
I have to add that I am suspicious about the battery. From the seller it seemed like it was very slow to take up charge. It was on charge for most of the day at the mechanic’s workshop last week and trickle charged overnight that night and still only got to 11.5 volts. Maybe a dud battery.
Assuming your meter is accurate, that battery is toast and not worth bothering with further.
So, from here I’ll fully charge the battery and run the test again at around 3-4000 rpm and see what that tells me.
By 3,500 you should be seeing at least 13.8volts. Any less and you should start suspecting the regulator or the brushes.
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So, for your current condition, I would place a resistor from the light blue wire for the GEN light to a ground, or earthing point to get your charging system operating as it should .
The link I provided has a range of resistor values you can use, depending on what is available in your area .
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Like Bob and Tony basically said
DO NOT!!! waste your time doing anything else until you get a proper charge light hooked up pertinently and then go from there
Charge the battery up with a good charger or if you have to Jump start it and go ride it for a couple hours and then check your battery voltage
with engine off and running at 3500 rpm and tell us what you find
If you can get a volt meter hooked up as you ride it that would tell you a lot
If the battery voltage is low after you start it that isnt necessarily bad but as long as it keeps rising and gets to 13,8 or more depending on what type battery you have that is good
(if you have a AGM battery it would be better to have it top out around 14.3 volts but you will need an adjustable regulator or high output reg to get that )
Also the more charged up the battery is be for you start the engine the quicker it should get to 13.8 volts
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Thank you all. Brilliant help and well spotted that I didn't have a light on the wiring for the GEN light.
Battery is on charge for one last try - just in case. If no luck, I'll be back to the point of purchase for a discussion.
Thanks for providing the figures I’m looking for from the charging system – at least now I know what I’m looking for!
Thanks for the link to Snowbum’s article, Bob. Is there anything this man doesn’t do in minute detail? Love his work and it’s a great place to learn lots – if you can actually find it among all the words.
My first preference to remedy the central problem would be to install a warning light as this looks like it will have the double benefit of completing the circuit to enable the charging and will provide me an indicator in the future of any problems. I would prefer not to use a resistor/LED light, but I’m having trouble locating a warning light with a 3W incandescent bulb! Everything is LED these days, it seems.
Wondering if Tony might have any tips for a local outlet that may have what I’m chasing?
Thanks again for all the tips. I can’t get back to do much about this until next week (bar charging the battery and sourcing a light, I hope), but will let you know how I get on.
Cheers
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The charge lamp wattage isn't at all critical and actually changed from 1.2W early models to 3W on later models.
What lamps can you find ?
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Wondering if Tony might have any tips for a local outlet that may have what I’m chasing?
Sadly, no, except that I am sure that SuperCheap or AutoBahn will no longer carry Bezel mount indicator/warning lights. You could try Repco or Asdown Ingrams, but I am merely guessing
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Peter, Scroll down to the FAQs section and check page two for the details on creating a simple GEN lamp auxiliary circuit. Pictures and parts for you. Maybe $2.00USD at the most.
If you do not have the GEN lamp circuit included with your aftermarket gauge, you will never get a charge to the battery. You may get a day of riding from the battery alone but don't stray too far from home.
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Brilliant, thanks Monte. Pictures and all.
And yes, I strayed just a little too far from home. The bike stopped about 7 blocks from home - and it's all up hill from there. It looked very strange sitting in the middle of the flatbed tow truck.
Thanks again
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[smiley=beerchug.gif]. Pleased to assist.
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Reporting back as promised....
OK, so step 1 was to check the battery. The local workshop has far more sophisticated equipment than I have and the initial reading was something like “Bad produce – Replace”. However, on charge for the day it reached about 14 V and looked healthy. Must’ve just been that I had drained it completely. So, I have a live battery (so far).
Step 2 was to source a GEN light. Visit to the local bike wreckers was successful. After listening to what I needed and scratching his head, the owner disappeared down one of those dark alleyways of racks of parts and re-emerged minutes later holding exactly what I needed (2 Amp, bare, incandescent warning light), handed it to me and said “No charge. Just tell people I’m a good bloke”.
So, I’ve cut a piece of aluminium strip, drilled holes of appropriate size to mount the strip to the bike and to mount the light to the strip, installed some connections on the existing wires to reach and then cannibalized an old LED light for a red casing and it fitted over the top perfectly. All seems to be working and good to go. Does everything it should. Glows at idle and fades to nothing with increasing revs.
Returned to my local workshop this morning for a verdict on the charging capability and came up with about 13.2V at about 3,000 - 4,000rpm. The verdict? Not great but manageable. Run without the headlight on will save power.
Also, this bike is very much for local use and I have installed leads to the battery so whenever it is parked, I can plug it in to charge, so that every time I take off, I can do so with a full battery.
By putting this out there I’m still fishing for comments, advice, observations from those who know a lot more than I ever will.
Cheers
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Reporting back as promised....
Returned to my local workshop this morning for a verdict on the charging capability and came up with about 13.2V at about 3,000 - 4,000rpm. The verdict? Not great but manageable. Run without the headlight on will save power.
You still have a problem ad 13.2 volts will not properly charge the battery sadly.
I'd start with the simple things, fit a new regulator and review all the wiring from the alternator. Whilst doing that have a look at the brushes and if they are getting a bit worn down - replace.
After that there is a test procedure to diagnose whether you are buying a new stator or a new diode board, if your manual doesn't have the procedure in it I will photocopy the relevant pages from mine and email them.
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Peteremc,
You have a charging system not producing enough juice to charge the battery.
You have to zero on the culprit.
I would charge the battery as good as I can, then install it on the bike and out a voltmeter on the battery. Right at it.
Then, remove the plug from the regulator and start the bike.
You will have the voltage at the battery going below the value it has before the bike started.
Then put a wire on the regulator plug between the D+ and DF wires. This way, you force the alternator to gives you all the power it can. Play with the throttle up to 4000 RPM. The voltage should go above 16 V (do not let it go above this value or you risk frying something on the bike).
If you can reach 16 V easily, the regulator is at fault. If not, there is some other flaw somewhere.
Please try and report back. We'll help you from there.
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You reside in a salt water coastal area, is corrosion a big issue there ???
As time permits, you may want to go through the wiring harness, separate the connectors and check for corrosion, security of the ' pins ' in the connector .
The 12vdc output of the diode board goes to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid, then to the battery on the positive cable from the battery .
This connection has probably never been disturbed since the bike left the factory, again check for corrosion .
Also a few members have found corrosion on the battery cables just under the insulation at the battery, when they stripped the insulation back they found the cable quite corroded .
I've resided in a dry desert for 24 years and corrosion is something I just don't see anymore . ;)
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Peteremc,
Then put a wire on the regulator plug between the D+ and DF wires. This way, you force the alternator to gives you all the power it can. Play with the throttle up to 4000 RPM. The voltage should go above 16 V (do not let it go above this value or you risk frying something on the bike).
Dammed if I could remember that this morning and didn't have time to look it up before heading off. If it isn't the regulator and is not a simple high resistance in one of the harness connectors then the next likely suspects are the brushes (cause they are so cheap and an under-voltage in the rotor will affect output) or a failed winding the stator. The Bosch alternator is a 3 phase alternator which means it is very easy to test because you have three components you can directly compare with each other. Measure the resistance of each phase (the three spade terminals on the front of the stator) to ground - if one is wildly different to the others you have found the culprit.
P.S. Peter. I have a spare Stator and a spare diode board you are welcome to borrow for testing purposes, sadly I can't sell them as they are spares fro our three airheads, but at least if need bee they can be borrowed to keep you mobile until your own replacements arrive. If you need a new regulator a Bosch RE55 regulator from Ashdown Inghrams will work perfectly - don;'t worry about it being only two pins where as the oriignal is three pin - the missing pin is only an earth and the stator is already solidly earthed,but if it is a concern you can always run a wire to earth - I may have a working regulator in my spares, unfortunately I also have at least one dead one and can't tell which is which.
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13.2 is OK if the battery is still charging
But after you ride it for an hr or so it should be getting to about 13.8 volts
A clamp on amp meter could tell you if that is what is happening or not
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13.2 is OK if the battery is still charging
But after you ride it for an hr or so it should be getting to about 13.8 volts
A clamp on amp meter could tell you if that is what is happening or not
I took the 13.2 to be done on a freshly charged battery (using a shop charger), but agree an ammeter would quickly tell the story, or even a voltmeter connected prior to cranking and left in place.
If I was a betting man I would go for a failed phase - reason being is that once a stator has been in place for a while they corrosion weld themselves in place quite firmly - which leads inevitably to the use of a lever to get them out and 9 times out of 10 the lever is applied to the wrong place and severs one of the windings - surprisingly this is a mistake most people do not repeat after they discover the cost of a new stator.
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Thank you all, particularly Tony for the very generous offers of assistance.
I'm slowly delving into the sorcery that is electricity and have read the procedures in my Clymer manual and I am dead certain I can at least run the quick test that will assist to isolate if there is a problem with the regulator or the alternator, as well as the more detailed regulator test - before I race out and buy a new regulator.
In fact, the first thing will be a trip to the auto suppliers tomorrow to purchase a multimeter. I told you I really didn't get electricity, but now I'm begging to learn, it looks like I may need one. Isn't necessity a wonderful thing?
Will get back when I have time to update this issue.
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In fact, the first thing will be a trip to the auto suppliers tomorrow to purchase a multimeter.
Jaycar will sell you a nice little basic unit that will do everything you need for under $20
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OK, so I purchased a pretty damn flash Multimeter for the grand sum of $17 (from Jaycar who have them in all price ranges, thanks Tony) and set about the diagnostics. Started with the “Quick test” as advised by Georges and the Clymer manual i.e. unplugged the regulator, installed jumper wire between the D+ and DF wires. The warning light went out, so, as the manual advised, I guessed it was the regulator.
Moved on to the Regulator test (as per the Clymer manual again) i.e. unplugged B+ connector on the diode board, started the bike, revved up just off idle and measured voltage between the diode board and D+ connector on the alternator brush assembly. This should’ve shown 13.5 – 14.25 but sadly showed 11.8 – 12.2. Looks like I’m getting close to the problem. Next test was to measure voltage between D+ on diode board and ground, which gave the same result. I guessed by now, the problem was, certainly, the regulator.
Off to follow another one of Tony’s leads to get a Bosch RE55 regulator. Called to see if they had one and was quoted $55, but when I turned up to purchase, was charged $46 – Bonus! It is a 2 pin device but (thankfully!) everything is labelled – the connector on the bike and the new regulator. A little bit of tinkering with connections and rigged up a ground wire (just in case) and we were all connected and good to go.
Started the bike, checked the charge at the battery terminals at 3,000 – 4,000 rpm and straight away had 13.8 – 14.2. Fantastic sight!
I must note here that where my last post said “…I really didn't get electricity, but now I'm BEGGING to learn…” well I wasn’t actually begging to learn and it should’ve read “…but now I’m BEGINNING to learn…”. I wish I never had the problem, but thanks to this and the forum’s help I’ve learned a bit and the problem is solved!
Many thanks to you all. I’m going riding tomorrow!
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Awesome :)
Now that you can use a volt meter
In the future If you have an issue or question we can actually point you to a specific part or tell you what to check and it will save you a lot of time money and headaches
You can also look on YouTube for Videos on how to use it also.
You need to understand how to check for voltage drops ,
measure resistance and check diodes
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Off to follow another one of Tony’s leads to get a Bosch RE55 regulator.
I am the first to admit that my memory is not as good as it once was. Whilst the RE55 will work absolutely perfectly, in fact one is fitted to the wifes R65/80, most people end up instituting a "peace of mind" earth strap for the "hanging" connector (I didn't as the system is already solidly earthed without it).
What I should have told you to buy was an RE57 which is a three pin device otherwise identical to the RE55.
The thing that is quite stunning is the increase in price - one of my spares is still in the box in came in when I bought it from AC-Delco in Townsville in March 1985 - it cost a whole $7.50.
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Peteremc, you wrote :
"OK, so I purchased a pretty damn flash Multimeter for the grand sum of $17 (from Jaycar who have them in all price ranges, thanks Tony) and set about the diagnostics. Started with the “Quick test” as advised by Georges and the Clymer manual i.e. unplugged the regulator, installed jumper wire between the D+ and DF wires. The warning light went out, so, as the manual advised, I guessed it was the regulator."
You are lucky. Your test is not good enough. The lamp going off is just a clue that the voltage from the alternator and diode board goes around the battery voltage. Not that the alternator is charging. (what if the battery is around dead at 12.0V ?)
If you had measured the voltage at the battery, as i told you, and revved the engine, you have seen the actual voltage the alternator is capable of (and it's ability to charge the battery whatever it's state is) so with one test you have ascertained the regulator and the diode board and the rotor and stator status.... Of course this test has to be carried for a short time and not above 16V if you do not want to fry anything else ;-)
I just point this for future reference for other have charging problems and using the search engine ;-)