The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: jonathanrowley on April 23, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
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My 1981 R65 was treated to a new Bosch Coil today, the original one was working OK, but I thought it deserved an upgrade s it was 35 years old and looked pretty ropey. I had also experienced some misfire, so I got a BOSCH 0 221 500 203 - suitable for 1981 R65.
I fitted it and started the Bike - OK for a few seconds then it died.
The ICU felt very warm, so I refitted the Tank and tried again - no luck.
So I decided to refit the original Coil, then Tank - Bingo all fine again.
I took it out for a road Test and it died, several times, restarted, but only just made it back home!
I'm wondering if the fitment of a new Coil could have blown the original ICU or overheated it?
On a related note, I haven't got any heat grease behind the ICU and have been reading that this causes similar issues.
Should I refit the new Coil?
Buy a new ICU then refit the new Coil?
Grease the original ICU?
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Hello Bluebossa !
Your picture, I hope, shows the old coil and a different from OEM ICU. If it is the current set-up I wonder what's wrong ?
The new coil has a very low primary resistance able to draw 24 amps from the ICU. So if your ICU is not made to deal with this coil it is normal for it to overheat and cut off operation when too much is too much.
I own an 1982 R65 and the original OEM ICU. It is able to run the new BOSCH coil and feed it only a little above 8 Amps. So you may have luck with an OEM ICU.
Hope this helps.
P.S. these ICU form factor was used by a great lot of European car and bike manufacturers at the time. But the innards are different from one need to the other. Peugeot, BMW, Fiat and a lot of others used them. I had an ICU from a Peugeot car die on me and the BMW bike one was not able to run the car...
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Hi George, Picture is indeed original Coil and ICU.
You can see how ropey, rusty it is, hence the change.
Here's the new one... now off the Bike.
Do you think I need a new ICU to drive it?
My mind says the new coil fried it...?
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Does not look like mine but may draw too much current from your actual ICU.
Try to put some thermal paste between the electronic box and the aluminum radiator. Bear in mind that a lot of modern ICU are permanently riveted to the heat sink and can't be taken apart without killing the ICU... So BEWARE !
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I suggest checking the resistance of the primary circuit of the new ignition coil and see what you have .
If it isn't 1.5 ohms, or close to it, it may be an issue .
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OK thanks, I'll try and take it off and see if it splits, need to find some heat synch grease.
I've just found a new ICU one on EBay UK.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151923265077?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX
Hopefully this should help... if it is blown.
I think as everything electrical was original and have gone through 35 English Winters they have done pretty well, so time for a bit of selective improvement.
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I found some information on that new coil you have, it looks to be a .5-.6 ohm primary circuit resistance .
The original OEM coil you have is a 1.5 ohm coil .
http://www.largiader.com/articles/ignition/
This coil is mentioned in the '81 and later paragraph .
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Hi Bob - thanks, yes I was just reading Snowbums site.
A minefield of numbers and upgrades!
I'm still a bit lost -
Do you think my suggestion then that the new coil blew / overheated the ICU is correct and that even that I've reverted back to the original Coil the ICU needs to be replaced as it's shot?
Also do you believe the new ICU I've ordered will work with the New Coil Bosch 221 500 203?
Thanks for the help
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New Bosch Coil 203 measure 1.4/5 Ohms Resistance Across the Terminals
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Coil most likely is not your problem .
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On the face of it the coil looks to be the correct spec and the ICU should have coped with that. Just for comparison what did the old coil measure ? The reason I ask is it's not easy to measure very low ohms values accurately. In fact it's quite common for digital multimeters to not zero out when the probes are shorted so it's possible the coil has a lower resitance than indicated. If both coils give similar measurements that should give you confidence that the new coil is the correct part.
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Old Coil is on Bike, but I will measure when I next fiddle. I think it's the right one.
I still think the ICU has gone Bang - maybe the New Fresh Coil just asked to much of it and heat damaged it.
Makes the Bike not rideable or reliable for the moment though, so back to the car I think. I'll get the new ICU and replace. Will report back.
Thanks for the help..
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IMHO, your ICU and alternator regulator are not OEM BMW so were changed at some point during the bike's life.
If the ICU was original it should have married very well with the Bosch coil you bought which has 1.5 Ohm primary resistance (which is the original value the Crak-O-Matic has)
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Hey George, well spotted the Regulator I recently upgraded for a Euromotoelectrics variable aftermarket one.
Reason being they help charging I believe as they allow an extra few volts across at low RPM. I hadn't thought of this until you raised it.
Anyway, just to eliminate it from the enquiry, I just switched back to the OEM one and the Bike now refuses to start completely.
Regarding the ICU, I really don't know, it was in the box of bits and I haven't changed it - but you may be right and it's not OEM. Unknown to me.
Any further ideas/tests?
Because I'm in the UAE, parts like this are hard to come by though if someone can recommend a Car compatible one known to work on the R65 I'm sure I could find that here in the desert.
I've ordered the one in the UK from eBay but that might take a few weeks to reach me...
Further update - decided to put the new coil and regulator back on so that I could:
1. Get the number off the ICU - its a Bosch 277 100 103 : See pic, not listed on any site I can find as yet, so definitely a replacement?
2. Measure the old Coil - 3.2 Ohms (if I'm doing it right?) - seems high compared to new one at 1.5 ohms
3. See if it would fire up - briefly, smelt a hot ICU again.
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Hello Jonathan,
Looking at my archived notes, I can tell that the original OEM ICU (for bikes with the kick starter) is BOSCH 0 227 100 113. It cuts a little bit later than the stock one in order to let you jump on the kick starter to start the bike. I wonder if yours is the correct one with a different heath sink ?
Your original coil looks strange to me. The coil itself is OK but the fixture is quite strange to me.
Alas I can't take a picture of my ld one as I destroyed it to re-use the support for a Fiat Tipo ignition coil (0.8 Ohm primary, dual output) I got for a song at a car wreck place.
As per the primary resistance at 3.2 Ohm, I would not bother too much : Corrosion may add up a little at the screwed tongs, and measuring very low resistance is a bit tricky because the resistance of the measuring wire add a significant error to the measure and you ohmmeter needs a good battery and one giving the necessary current to the measured resistance. So a difficult job for a very cheap Chinese meter... 50 % error is not uncommon.
As per the ICU, I bet you fried the one on the bike. At this point, IMHO you have a couple of way to go :
1) buy the latest ICU from BMW (around 150 Euro ) which should fire properly all coils past and present
2) find a correct second hand one. Buy from a reputable source as it is difficult to see from outside if the unit is toast or not. (http://motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Home/index.php comes to mind, but there are a lot of others)
3) try to go at car wreck places with your ICU in the pocket and try to find one. This is the last resort option IMHO because where you live, they seldom saw cars using them...
Hope this helps.
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2. Measure the old Coil - 3.2 Ohms (if I'm doing it right?) - seems high compared to new one at 1.5 ohms
That's what I was getting at above.
If the old coil is really 1.5 ohms and your meter measures it at 3.2 ohms
Then the new coil which measures at 1.5 ohms could have a real value that is much lower.
Do you know anyone with another multimeter that could check the measurements ?
If not there is another more accurate way of measuring the coil resistance. Very briefly connect the battery to the coil with the meter in series set on the 10 A DC range and using 10 A socket. Ohms law says you should get approx 8 amps. The new coil if it's lower than 1.5 ohms may damage the meter so I would try this with the old coil first and if it the current measures in the right ball park then you know it's a 1.5 ohm coil and not 3.2 ohms. From the different primary resistance measurements I think you could then infer that the new coil is lower than 1.5 ohms.
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George, many thanks, all helps me navigate the jungle I have obviously uncovered. The ICU references on the link earlier in the post as an OEM one.
I've just ordered a second one from EuromotoElectrics USA - looks like it's the very latest version ending in 284, heavy duty and should be updated to work with all coils from what I read.
I'm not sure about the Ebay one already ordered as:
1) its cheaper
2) cross references to different part numbers.
Either way in a couple of weeks I should have 2 chances!
For now the Bike is resting with New Coil and Regulator re-fitted.
Re the Old Coil - yes, its a bit knackered, looks like the frame has been hacked around, unknown origin and the middle was expanding with rust so time for it to go... despite the fact that it was running OK.
I just suspected it was ready for replacement. Can't see any part number on it, though it is a Bosch unit, so suspect it's original.
Will report back of course... cheers from the Desert
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2. Measure the old Coil - 3.2 Ohms (if I'm doing it right?) - seems high compared to new one at 1.5 ohms
That's what I was getting at above.
If the old coil is really 1.5 ohms and your meter measures it at 3.2 ohms
Then the new coil which measures at 1.5 ohms could have a real value that is much lower.
Do you know anyone with another multimeter that could check the measurements ?
If not there is another more accurate way of measuring the coil resistance. Very briefly connect the battery to the coil with the meter in series set on the 10 A DC range and using 10 A socket. Ohms law says you should get approx 8 amps. The new coil if it's lower than 1.5 ohms may damage the meter so I would try this with the old coil first and if it the current measures in the right ball park then you know it's a 1.5 ohm coil and not 3.2 ohms. From the different primary resistance measurements I think you could then infer that the new coil is lower than 1.5 ohms.
Thanks Barry - I'm going to wait for some new ICUs then fit and retry!
Will report back but interesting reading.
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Jonathan,
There is no link between the regulator and the ignition, except for the state of the battery ;-)
So you can put the Euromotorelectric regulator back without negative influence (pun intended)
You can test the multimeter by setting it to Ohms , low range and short circuit the two measuring wires. If the meter is accurate, and of good sensitivity, you should read something in the range of 0.1~0.3 Ohm. Or less.
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Snowbum basically says you have to use the latest ICU with the new Bosch ciols because of the low primary resistance they will burn up the old style ICU.
That is one of the reasons a lot of people use the Brown Dyna coils (and they are cheaper and have a very good reputation)
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/dyna-coildc2-1x1.htm
EME says their new ICU's will work with the new style Bosch coil
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Ignition-Module-BMW-R-12-14-2-325-284-p/ignmod-r284hd.htm
I think your old coil is from a K100 with the the ears cut off
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boigncoil-k513.htm
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Jonathan,
There is no link between the regulator and the ignition, except for the state of the battery ;-)
So you can put the Euromotorelectric regulator back without negative influence (pun intended)
You can test the multimeter by setting it to Ohms , low range and short circuit the two measuring wires. If the meter is accurate, and of good sensitivity, you should read something in the range of 0.1~0.3 Ohm. Or less.
Thanks George, New Regulator Back on - thought as much on reflection, just wondered if it was driving too much Current when the Bike was running.
Re Multimeter - it's cheap! Read 1 Ohm when shorted
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Snowbum basically says you have to use the latest ICU with the new Bosch ciols because of the low primary resistance they will burn up the old style ICU.
That is one of the reasons a lot of people use the Brown Dyna coils (and they are cheaper and have a very good reputation)
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/dyna-coildc2-1x1.htm
EME says their new ICU's will work with the new style Bosch coil
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Ignition-Module-BMW-R-12-14-2-325-284-p/ignmod-r284hd.htm
I think your old coil is from a K100 with the the ears cut off
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boigncoil-k513.htm
Yep, that then now confirms exactly what has happened, new Coil burned out the old ICU - hope this helps others avoid similar issues!
Thanks!
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I've read Snowbum article a couple of times. And, my OEM original ICU built for kick starter bike still survives the new BOSCH coil !
So I asked the local BMW Guru which is only dealing with airheads, from the 60's up to the last one, of the line.
He said he did not see any failing ICU AFTER replacing the coil for the new low primary resistance one.
So I think there is more than we know into these ICU !
this is why I noted the BOSCH P/N written on mine, and when traveling very far from home, I carry a spare coil (not from BMW, nor BOSCH) and a spare new ICU.
Jonathan, your meter reads 1 Ohm when shorted. So the actual resistance of the primary of the coil is 3.2 minus 1 equal 2.2 Ohm... Try to remove the corrosion from the spades and screws and you may well get the 1.5 one should read ...
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Snowbum basically says you have to use the latest ICU with the new Bosch ciols because of the low primary resistance they will burn up the old style ICU.
The above is what caused me to check the temperature of my nearly new BOSCH ICU. The results of the finger tip test lead me to buy a Heavy duty ICU from Eromotorelctrix (or however they are spelt) and a much, much cheaper "heavy duty" module intended for a VW.
You can imagine my annoyance and consternation when neither of the new ICUs would work in my 1984 edition R65. Careful thinking my way through the problem has led me to conclude that the older ICU modules have thicker and wider terminal pins than the newer type and that they simply may not make electrical contact with the terminals in an older 7 pin socket that has been "stretched" by the older variety ICUs.
My new ICU wiring harness arrived from Motobins last week and I did intend to fit it over the weekend, but I went riding instead, however a quick look at the 7 pin socket supplied by Motobins reveals a completely different type of connector and connection strategy. i am very confident that I have nailed the problem and will report back as soon as I have the new harness fitted and verify that my new ICUs suddenly work.
On the assumption that I am correct, then anyone with the older type ICU who is contemplating fitting the new HD ICU may also have to buy the new ICU harness.....
The other thing I promise to in the next week or so is fit the new (supposedly genuine made under licence) Chinese sourced 2AV54 hall trigger to one of my dead beancans. If it is likewise a success I will leave the Chinese device in place and rework another beancan to mount two 2AV54s so that a failure only means a few minutes delay to switch over the harness under the front cover. Fitting a second Hall effect looks like an easy task - I plan to use a rotary table to gain a high degree of accuracy, but I suspect that careful eyeballing would get it close enough to not matter.
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I've read Snowbum article a couple of times. And, my OEM original ICU built for kick starter bike still survives the new BOSCH coil !
So I asked the local BMW Guru which is only dealing with airheads, from the 60's up to the last one, of the line.
He said he did not see any failing ICU AFTER replacing the coil for the new low primary resistance one.
So I think there is more than we know into these ICU !
this is why I noted the BOSCH P/N written on mine, and when traveling very far from home, I carry a spare coil (not from BMW, nor BOSCH) and a spare new ICU.
Jonathan, your meter reads 1 Ohm when shorted. So the actual resistance of the primary of the coil is 3.2 minus 1 equal 2.2 Ohm... Try to remove the corrosion from the spades and screws and you may well get the 1.5 one should read ...
Oo the plot thickens - I think it overheated, I felt it and smelt it - something to do with the new coil, as all was well before.
My new ICU ending 284 is on its way from the US and hopefully will be a plug in and go... we'll see.
Re the Old coil - I think it's knackered and on it's way to the bin.
The other Coil alternative looks interesting though if this doesn't work.
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On the assumption that I am correct, then anyone with the older type ICU who is contemplating fitting the new HD ICU may also have to buy the new ICU harness.....
Be interesting to see, Snobum points to the ICU ending 284 being a universal later replacement for the earlier one.
Not sure what the date changes are..
Interested to here how you get on.
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So, I received the new and updated ICU today and eagerly went to fit it to the Bike.
Once installed the Bike seemed reluctant to start, backfired a while, Banged a couple times then flooded and eventually stumbled into life. Flattened the Battery though so not quite right.
It works with the new coil, but now I'm wondering if the timing needs to be re-set?
Would the new unit have some sort of different firing profile?
I timed the bike with the old parts way back and I assumed it would be the same. It was spot on before.
Any ideas?
Battery flattened and now on charge, so can only retry tomorrow.
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So charged the battery and fitted... couple of murmers and tried to fire but just turned over.
I took the front cover off and sprayed some wd40 into the bean can but no joy... where next with this plot?
Tony did you get any luck with the harness? Can you post picks, wonder if its a connector >:( issue
Both iCUs pic attached - can see a slight difference in pins, tried squeezing connector up but still no joy?
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Just to update those who kindly gave support, I conducted the paperclip test on the Ignition trigger connector and got a big fat spark - research points to the ICU and Coil being fine following this...
Not sure why it would have failed but maybe more ziggies from the new Coil and ICU pushed it too over the edge?
Feels like the butterfly effect really - one thing breaks another in this area. At least at the end of this I will have renewed the whole ignition system and it might last another 30 years!
Time for more modernisation.
I looked at various options - but a 2nd hand Trigger unit made no sense as it would be as old as the orginal - 1981 - i.e. it would be possible that it would fail again.
So I researched and landed on this Siemens unit from UK supplier Motorworks. https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=5&NU=15&M=20&Ct=IA&SbCt=BA_15_20_IA_40
It looks good - and I used to work for Siemens! :) So hopefully it will arrive and be the solution - will report back soon.
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So to close this out for now, the unit arrived today and I fitted it the Bike this evening.
Bike started first time - very strong sparks - it's been an expensive path, but hopefully one that gives some peace of mind over a 1981 ignition system that was I think, creaking at the seams and could have failed at any time.
After researching it and getting the answers here the whole thing seems a bit of a kludge from BMW.
Neither as mechanically reliable as points nor as robust as full Electronic ignition. Strange decision by BMW Engineers...
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My Bimbo got treated to the same set up last winter Jonathan and its made a massive difference in how she runs. Starts first touch of the button and more punch in the acceleration, was £200 well spent in my book.
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Jonathan
Can you post a picture of your ICU mounted to the frame
Thanks Mark
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I got the bracket from Motorworks at the same time as the electric bean can and ICU. I'm working away until Friday, but if Jonathan doesn't have one I can take a photo of mine when I get home.
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Here is what my ICU mounting bracket looks like
It is welded to the top tube unlike some that are bolted.
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Interesting, my 84 has a completely different mount. If you ever need to fit the new "Heavy Duty" module you are going to have your work cut out as you have limited space in which to fit an adapter and I suspect the width might defeat you.
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This is how I mounted mine
I made an adapter plate
It just barely fits with 3mm clearance between it and the tank.
I don't think it would work with the stock voltage regulator
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Well, the new ICU comes with a new support.
If you look at the support, it has a place to put the ICU and two holes to put the screws to the bike support.
This way, the ICU is at 45 ° from the center spine and fits.
I can't post photos of mine because the bike is at a mere 20 000 km from me ;D and my arms are not sol long..
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If you are using an AGM battery, it's best to dump the OEM VR and swap in a newer electronic VR that provides a charge rate near 14.2 volts. Just what the AGMs like. Plus, you'll open up some install space under the tank.
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If you are using an AGM battery, it's best to dump the OEM VR and swap in a newer electronic VR that provides a charge rate near 14.2 volts. Just what the AGMs like. Plus, you'll open up some install space under the tank.
I did dump the OEM reg If you look at the second picture you will see a Delco Remy Reg from a 10SI alternator.
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Well, the new ICU comes with a new support.
If you look at the support, it has a place to put the ICU and two holes to put the screws to the bike support.
This way, the ICU is at 45 ° from the center spine and fits.
I can't post photos of mine because the bike is at a mere 20 000 km from me ;D and my arms are not sol long..
Like Tony said there is no holes to mount the new style bracket
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If you are using an AGM battery, it's best to dump the OEM VR and swap in a newer electronic VR that provides a charge rate near 14.2 volts. Just what the AGMs like. Plus, you'll open up some install space under the tank.
That's what I did, I upgraded the VR to a Euromotoelectrics type which is adjustable and pumps more ziggies. That's what started this whole process! that then the Coil then Bang
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Well, the new ICU comes with a new support.
If you look at the support, it has a place to put the ICU and two holes to put the screws to the bike support.
This way, the ICU is at 45 ° from the center spine and fits.
I can't post photos of mine because the bike is at a mere 20 000 km from me ;D and my arms are not sol long..
Like Tony said there is no holes to mount the new style bracket
I got the bracket with the new ICU but no space, even with the new VR fitted. In the end I just fitted it with one of the holes and it twists to fit under the Tank.
Will take tank off and photo but working for now!