The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: raphski on March 29, 2016, 10:38:12 PM
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Hi,
New R65 owner slowly getting to know the bike.
How long should my battery hold a charge if I'm not using it daily?
Trying to determine if I need to replace my battery. Seems like after only a few days mine does not have the juice to start the bike.
How hard should it be to start cold? My local mechanic after doing the major service tune up and carb rebuild said to move the choke to the middle position and then slowly to the off position as it warms up. It is always a bit hard to start and seems to run a bit rough when it's cold, I'm talking cold engine with temperatures in the 40-50's. Once warm it runs like a champ.
Thanks!
Raphael
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Start with full choke, then after a bit half-way, then off once you are rolling and the RPMs will stay up - leave the throttle alone for the most part until it's started. Battery question depends on whether wet or AGM battery.
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Thanks!
I will play with the starting sequence. I think its AGM.
R
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Raphael, An AGM battery -Absorbed Glass Mat- will be sealed. No caps to add distilled water. No mess. No overflow tube destroying paint and chrome. A good thing, AGMs.
Do you know how old the battery is? That could be a clue. AGMs seem to last longer than sloshed batteries but they can fail. Battery not holding a charge could also indicate an issue within the bike's charging system.
AGM batteries also require a slightly higher charging rate than the old scool wet batteries. Easiest way to bump the charge rate is to replace the OEM clunky voltage regulator with a new, smaller, plug n' play unit for Rick Jones at MotorradElektrik. Scroll down to find the VR.
http://www.motoelekt.com/charging.htm
Also, spend some quality time with your R65 by cleaning the battery's large ground (-) cable at the terminal and where it bolts to the transmission. I just yesterday calmed an R90 owner who was nutz because his new battery wouldn't hold a charge. Small corrosion at the cable/gearbox attach. Clean up both battery terminals and then smear some dielectric grease on them.
AGM batteries like about 14.2 volts charging. With the engine running about 4K rpm, put a DVOM across the battery terminals and see what voltage is coming down the pike. Report back with your findings.
It's a BMW Airhead. It's always some thing simple.
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A healthy AGM battery should hold it's charge for weeks or even months. If it starts off fully charged and then won't start the bike after a few days it's shot.
Don't rely on the bike to fully charge it. Use a bench charger then allow the battery to rest overnight before measuring the no load voltage which for an AGM should be minimum 12.8 volts or higher to indicate a full charge. Then leave the battery for a few days. If it drops more than a couple of tenths it's shot.
With everything right starting from cold should be all but instantaneous. If you have to churn it on the starter there is something wrong usually too little choke.
Yours is a 79. If it's an early 79 there is another possible cause of starting problems. The enricher disc got modified via a service bulletin to improve starting and cold running. When I carried out this mod to mine the enricher operation was absolutely transformed. Either look at it yourself or get your mechanic to check if the mod has been applied. The service bulletin advises marking the enricher with a paint spot but I wouldn't rely on that. Check that the fourth hole has been drilled. The bulletin says increase in size but that must be a bad translation as if the mod needs doing there won't be a hole at all just the counter bore. Also check that the counter bores have been opened up to 2.5 mm.
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Wow!
I am so pleased to have found this board and to become part of the R65 community. Thank you for all the advice. I have a learning curve to tackle and will keep you all informed as I figure this out and bring the bike back to better condition. Last night I installed a new used exhaust that I got from Larry Chabira. Not factory but it looks and sounds great, a big improvement from the rusted one that came off.
Raphael
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Most FLAPS -Friendly Local Auto Parts Store- will load test your battery for free. With a battery just sitting in the bike, a VOM may show 12+ volts. Put a load on the battery and voltage could drop.
I find it difficult to justify the rather high prices for AGM motorcycle batteries. Some are even pricier than the hefty battery in my pickup truck, also an AGM.
Shouldf you discover your R65's battery has gone Tango Uniform, check in with Staab Battery in Springfield IL. Listed in their Building Maintenance & Office section, you'll find their 12V22AH UB12220. It is a direct, drop-in, exact size for the R65. I have these batts in both of my R65s and they, when combined with an electronic VR pumping out over 14V charge, last a l-o-n-g time. My 1981 R65 Staab lasted 68 months. Replaced it in early 2015 with another Staab so expect many more years of service.
I also replaced the 24-pound boat anchor sloshed battery in the R100S with a much smaller and lighter weight AGM battery from Staab. Less weight. Faster bike.
http://www.staabbattery.com/product/sla-12/UB12220-V.html
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How is the bike ridden, ' city ' riding, stop lights, short distance ??
This charging system doesn't provide enough power below the 4,000 rpm area to power the bikes circuits and charge the battery .
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Regarding city driving, what are the options? Is there anything that can be done if most of mine is just what Bob Roller mentioned - city, stoplights, short distance? Can you give an idea as to how much above 4000 rpm needs to be done to counteract the short hop riding? I'm still having some charging problems but not sure where to look. Or maybe they're not really problems and my riding style near home just isn't compatible?
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Only option is to place a battery charger of some sort on the battery .
I've used battery ' maintainers ' on my bikes, to keep the batteries charged to where they should be .
When I lived in Chicago, when riding season began, I had a 5.5 mile ride to work, 13 stop lights and a maximum of 35 mph speed limit, if I didn't take the bike out for a 2-3 hour ride on my days off, or use a battery charger, the battery would not start the bike after about 8 days .
Since moving to Phoenix, I have an 11 mile ride, 3 stop lights, most is 65 mph urban expressway and no issues, except for the fact that I use the oilhead for 4 days a week, take one of the ' dinosaurs ' ( as my co-workers call them !!! ) to work on Saturdays and holidays, due to insurance restrictions of using the old bikes to commute to work . :)
When you are due for a replacement battery, I would recommend an AGM type battery, generic AGM's can be had for under $50 and are maintenance free .
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Fitting A volt meter on the dash is a good way to keep an eye on whats going on with your battery.
It is a must have if you have extra electrical loads like extra lights and heated gear
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I do keep the battery on a tender at home. But I've had a couple of occasions where I have been out and about and everything seemed fine but then (luckily) I'd be getting close to home, and it wouldn't have enough juice to start. I'm still learning my bike's personality and also the ways of the airhead, so no way for me to tell if this is just the way it is or if I have a deficiency somewhere.
For the record, I don't run anything extra except that I have the sidecar lights. However, I did recently switch my main brake light for a Beacon and the brake/tail & running light on the sidecar with LED bulbs.
With our weather being more consistently nice here i'll be getting out more but it's a bit un-nerving not knowing what's going to happen when I turn the key toward the end of the day.
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I was going to ask if anyone had recommendations for an accurate voltmeter. That was going to be one of my next additions. I've seen that the standard VDO's aren't too spendy online. A lot of the digitals seem to be cheaper. Any thoughts between the two? Or a specific brand of the digitals that are decent?
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Hi,
I wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for the input. Time will tell but so far cleaning the battery terminals and contact points seems to have taken care of my issue of not having power to start the bike after just a few days. In addition it is starting with authority and much faster. When I purchased the bike I had a major service done which was quite expensive and extensive and I would have thought it would have included this since the bike was delivered to the shop with the battery out of it. Serves me right for thinking. Nice to start to get to know my bike and find a simple cure.
Raphael
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I find it difficult to justify the rather high prices for AGM motorcycle batteries
Monte,................. Gruber sells their AGM that will fit the R65
$31.09
SKU:
58AGPS-12-18-P
for 12 Volt - 18 Amp Hour (AH) Battery
Not too pricey.......... and my bike can set for a month and fire right up!
Chuga pah chuga pah chuga pah chuga
If it's really cold
Chuga pht chuga pht chuga pht chuga
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... Gruber sells their AGM that will fit the R65
$31.09
I have to agree those generic AGM batteries are a steal. As with everything else in the UK the $ price translates to £ so we pay 50-60% more but they are still a good buy. I'm over 2 years into a £32 generic battery and it performs like new so there is every expectation it will last 5 years. I haven't the faintest idea why anyone would splash 3 times that price for an expensive AGM unless it's guaranteed to last 15 years.
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I found another reason for hard starting a few years ago when I had a failing OEM red ignition coil .
A starter that is ' dry ', the lubricants have long since gone away, the starter was using too much power, that the ignition system had insufficient voltage to work properly .
There are ' oilite ' bearings at each end of the armature shaft, oilite bearings, are compressed metal powder and are soaked in oil .
The oil seeps out and lubricates the ends of the armature shaft .
After 30+ years they are dry and need more oil, replacement, if they are worn .
Also, the ' Bendix ' unit that moves the starter gear to contact the flywheel, needs lubrication as well .
There used to be a thread in the FAQ section about this procedure, don't know if it still is there .
The thread is there, but the link is no longer good . >:(
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Bob Roller - I was looking for that how-to as well. It was mentioned in a post a while back (maybe by you?). In the FAQ there is a post about a complete starter teardown/rebuild but that was the only one I saw. It had a bad link but I was able to find the page. Is that the one you are talking about? Or is there one specifically about the lube points?
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The link showed complete disassembly, cleaning and lubrication of the starter .
I'm at work now and can't access any videos online, but if you do a search for Bosch starter rebuild, I saw a few come up .
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The one I found was from This Old Tractor. EXTREMELY thorough write up on a complete rebuild. I was wondering if there was one just for lubrication. Do you have to remove the starter and take it down pretty far just to lube? I wasn't sure how far into it you needed to go for that.
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Well I thought my battery woes where taken care of with cleaning the terminals and ground contact points. I have had the battery load tested twice and both times it tested fine. After cleaning the terminals I was out of town for 8 days and it fired right up. Then overnight it would not start. More than not start it won't even turn over, usually just one solid click/thunk like the starter wanting to turn it over but not being able to do so. This is with a fully charged battery. Today I checked for visual shorts, and bought a multi meter which I will have to learn how to use, I'm not a electrical guy but I think it's in my future. How can I trouble shoot and see where my problem is.
Thanks!!!
Raphael
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Raphael,
First, put your multimeter in voltmeter mode. Then, use it to measure the voltage at the battery putting the black wire on minus and the red wire on positive.
You should have more than 12 V reading (what kind of battery it is ?)
Then turn the ignition key to the ON position. Is the voltage dropping ? How much ?
Try to crank the bike. Is the voltage dropping ? How much ?
Post above measurements and type of battery. We will comment on that and progress from here.
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Thanks for the help!
I had the charger on it last night with the battery in the bike and hooked up. This morning it read as follows-
12.69 ignition off
11.96 ignition on
With the starter button depressed and no crank just the click/thunk followed after a few moments by some licking the reading fluctuated a bit but was around 6.0
I'm off to ride my simple bike, the one with fat tires and pedals and will check the thread later today.
Raphael
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Hello Raphael,
You battery takes the charging. 12.7 V indicate you have a "liquid" (flooded) battery and that it arrives at 100 % charge. (if I'm wrong on the type of battery, please tell me).
The other figure is not good. It tells me that your battery has got to it's end of life. (a battery looses it's nominal capacity as it is used. At first it is 20 Ah, then it becomes a 15 Ah... and so on until it reaches 0 Ah).
It seems, given your figures above, that the battery has not enough capacity to supply the bike with ignition on, thus the voltage drops under 12V. With the ignition ON, you only power the ignition circuit, the tachometer and maybe the headlight if your bike has permanent light on. So the voltage should have stayed well above 12V, maybe 12.6 or even 12.7V.
Given that, it has not enough capacity to drive the starter motor which is a huge sucker. When you press the starter button you request your battery to give something around 300 A to the starter motor. This is a huge drain on the battery. So we expect that the voltage will drop to around 12V during the time the starter runs. Your battery drops to 6V ! half it's rated voltage ! So clearly, it collapse under the load and your starter motor has not enough juice to power it's internal relay (300 A is a huge current and need a huge relay to cope with).
If your battery is somewhat old you will have to replace it and go. If it is not, you will have to replace it and troubleshoot what has killed it on the bike. For peace of mind, after replacing the battery, we will check that everything's fine and you will learn how to check using your new multimeter.
But replacing the battery is/may be the first step.
I do not know where you live, but one can find relatively cheap AGM batteries suitable for the R65 and requiring no maintenance. There is an permanent thread on the upper part of this sub forum about that.
Have a nice day, even if it started not so good....
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I find it difficult to justify the rather high prices for AGM motorcycle batteries
Monte,................. Gruber sells their AGM that will fit the R65
Yes they do sell AGM batteries at great prices. I buy from them. However, they are not listed nor sold as "motorcycle batteries". It's the motorcycle and accessory dealers that jack up the prices when the AGM battery carton has graphics of a motorcycle and the box says, "Fits these motorcycles".
In my home office, there's a wall-mounted box that holds an AGM battery as a systems backup. Three years after installation, I received a message on my TV that said it was time to replaced the backup battery. "Press OK and we'll ship to you and bill your account." Nearly $45.00 it was!
A little research found the same battery selling online for 1/3 of what I got giged for...from Gruber.
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Ok, thanks for all the help! I was not thinking battery because when I took it to the battery store to have it load tested they said it was fine and they are in the business of selling batteries. Regardless for peace of mind and to see if it solves my problem I will start there. By the way it it AGM. In this process I have come across a recent post of interest about lubricating the starter which I may tackle sooner than later to reduce draw and further get to know my bike.
Have a great day!
Raphael
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So Raphael, maybe something is killing your battery on the bike. As you have to buy a new one, we should ensure the bike won't kill it this time, shall we ?
When you buy the new one, put it in slow charge before use. And we will use this time to debug the bike.
Fast charge your old battery on the bike. When charged, connect the plus wire to it but not the minus one. Turn the bike ignition off and plug your multimeter in the ampere meter mode. Be sure to read the manual if you do not want to fry the meter... Select the biggest setting the meter has it should be in the ampere range (1 to 10 A is perfect, if the meter can only measure milliamperes (1/1000 A) it is not big enough and you can't perform this measurement. Tell us so and we will perform another way)
Plug one cable (the black or minus) to the minus pole of the battery and the other one (the positive or red one) to the cable from the gearbox.
If everything is OK, you should read 0 A on your meter. If it is the case, select a lower sensitivity on the ammeter until you read something and put that figure here. If you do not have a clock, you "should" have zero all along. But nothing is perfect, especially on a 30 years old bike...
More to come when results came back ;D One thing at a time !
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The new battery is in and it still is not turning over, just one click/thunk per depression of the starter button.
12.32 ignition off
12.17 ignition on
8.30 with starter button depressed
I'm happy to have a fresh battery so I can rule that out completely and know where I stand. I just ordered the Classic Boxer Charging Book so I can start to better understand the electrical system of my bike. In the interim I would appreciate any advise on where to look next in trouble shooting.
Thanks!
Raphael
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Hi Georges,
Let me know if I'm not getting you name right.
I had missed your previous post but then saw it. I gave up my old battery as a core for recycling so just have the new one. If I understood your directions you where asking me to bridge the ground through the multi meter which I did with a reading of .020
Positive side connected to the bike
Negative disconnected
Meter from negative battery terminal through meter to ground cable of bike
Thanks!
t
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Raphael,
The new battery NEEDS charging. An offload voltage of 12.32 V indicates less than 60% charge. (provided it is an AGM).
And I bet your bike has more than one problem so it is not abnormal for her not to start, given the situation.
Your ammeter reading is confusing. What are the units ? Amps or milliamps ? Does your bike have a clock ?
If you want to make progress in troubleshooting, you have to make one change at a time. and note what you do, measure, how and when. Memory fades, notes don't.
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Memory fades, notes don't.
When I fail to do all things on my Honey Do list, Wife calls me Mister Short Term Memory. Not so.
Now then, where did I put those notes? [smiley=embarassed.gif]
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
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Back at it!
New battery off the charger with the charger reading full = 12.89
In bike with ignition on = 12.64
With starter button depressed = 9.70
With the starter button depressed it does not go click click click, just one click/thunk then nothing.
Negative wire removed from the terminal with mulimeter bridging negative terminal to negative ground cable and set to milliampere with ignition off = .02
Thanks!!
Raphael
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OK, Now we are talking.
0.02 mA ignition off is correct. Very close to zero, so insulation is good and everything is cut off.
But your 9.7 V when trying to crank the engine is something we should investigate ! It means the starter motor is pumping all the juice the battery can give and more.
So now we know for certain that the starter is somewhat at fault.
With battery unplugged, remove the front cover and the starter cover and check that the contacts are properly tight. If yes, remove the starter and clean it as per the instructions we discussed about a couple of days ago... Work for the week end ;-) I hope the weather is not fine to regret the non running bike.
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Thanks you for the guidance and the super post with photos on starter rebuild. I have some work to do and look forward to further getting know this bike which is new to me and also the satisfaction of it running again soon. Luckily I live in New Mexico where it's almost always nice and I have all summer to ride.
I will let you know what I find and if questions arise.
Raphael
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My bet is that the brushes are worn out and that the solenoid is very dirty.
So before dismantling get a set of new brushes (a lot of cars of European origin used BOSCH starter motors, so you can/may find brushes there... )
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Good evening,
This afternoon I had a chance to pull the starter. Based on the challenge of loosening the fasteners I'm guessing it has not been serviced in a very long time and I'm a bit afraid of what I saw. It does not look good but I'm hoping that it looks worse than it is, I will attach a few photos.
This is my first bike which I purchased over the winter and also my fist foray into motorcycle mechanics so bare with me as this is all new.
I have my theory about whats going on but the after viewing the photos I think those of you with more experience will be able to enlighten me. I just hope I get to spend the summer riding and not doing a rebuild. Also let me know if I should start a new thread as I think the topic has just changed.
Thanks!!!!
Raphael
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The starter probably has not been removed since it was installed at the factory .
You can clean up the teeth on the flywheel with a file, same goes for the starter teeth .
It has the look of the ' bendix ' is not moving the starter gear out far enough to engage the flywheel teeth .
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Thanks!
I will then get busy with my first starter rebuild and clean up the teeth on both the starter gears and fly wheel. I was a bit worried by the fresh bits of metal visible in both photos. I agree that based on the chipping of the fly wheel and the starter gears it looks like it was not fully engaging. Although if that was the case I would expect to hear a nasty grinding which I did not.
Recently when I have depressed the starter it has been just one click/thunk. As this is all new to me do I have to be concerned with the chipped bits of missing metal from the starter gears, or do they have plenty of room to land without causing trouble? Also would I be well served to replace the gears of the starter motor or is it fine as is if I clean it up?
I hope my issues are no deeper than the starter motor. If so it will be a great first project to get to start to know my bike. Also a chance to clean it up in there, what a mess, grease, dirt, sunflower seeds, there was all sorts of stuff in there.
Raphael
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This may be a silly question but since I don't know the answer and am learning about how bikes and my bike work here goes. Should I be able to move the fly wheel manually by pushing on the gear with a flat head in its current state, battery disconnected, starter removed, clutch pulled in?
I can't, I didn't try a lot of force because I don't want to do any damage.
Thanks!
R
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My bet is that the brushes are worn out and that the solenoid is very dirty.
So before dismantling get a set of new brushes (a lot of cars of European origin used BOSCH starter motors, so you can/may find brushes there... )
Guarantee VW fit - Bosch starter for Type 1, 12v engines (the 6V ones probably fit too, but to my surprise i do not ever recall rebuilding a 6V starter. I guess they were so cheap and i had a shelf full of them anyway, no need to bother....
As far as the "pull-in" solenoid goes, they are a cheap part, just buy a new one, the newer ones are much better sealed against the elements which combined with the protected place our starter rides in means that I reckon you will only ever replace 1.
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This may be a silly question but since I don't know the answer and am learning about how bikes and my bike work here goes. Should I be able to move the fly wheel manually by pushing on the gear with a flat head in its current state, battery disconnected, starter removed, clutch pulled in?
I can't, I didn't try a lot of force because I don't want to do any damage.
Thanks!
R
If the spark plugs are still installed, you're up against the engine's compression so it's going to be tougher than pushing a rope uphill. Pull the plugs, put the bike in high gear and use the rear wheel to rotate the engine. I'm guessing you're planning to dress the flywheel teeth with a mill file?
The only silly question is the one not asked.
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Raphael,
The starter teeth have a special profile to engage while the starter is turning. So do not focus too much on them.
If you are worried, once well cleaned, bring the "Bendix" to a place selling them and ask to compare with a new one. You'll see what amount of wear it has... And decide if you've to buy a new one or not.
The flywheel teeth have a tough life because the starter teeth are very hard and hit on them fast. But I've still to see a flywheel used beyond hope... It may make a grinding sound when cranking but will crank anyway.
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Thanks for all the guidance! I feel lucky to have found this group and resource. I will pipe down for a bit now and follow up with a report and some photos when I have made progress.
R
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I'm rebuilding the starter since I ordered the parts and for the experience as well as to know it's good going forward. See attached photo for the real problem, a clutch bolt worked itself loose which is what was inhibiting the fly wheel from turning.
Thank you all for your help and guidance as I get to know my bike.
Raphael
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On a positive note, those splines appear to be in good condition.
As someone once said, "Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" :D