The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: motoleo on March 19, 2016, 06:05:58 PM
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Finally got my newly acquired 82 R65LS carbs cleaned and the bike started up fine and idled nicely. Once warmed up there is a metallic noise that seems to come from the front of the engine and quickly disappears when throttle is given.
The previous owner gave me a new timing chain, tensioner and arm with the bike. I'm assuming I need to replace the timing chain , etc.
I also had a friend come over who is an airhead owner (has 3) and owns an automotive repair shop to listen to the engine. He feels that it is the timing chain and components.
I did a few searches on this list as wella s other sites but haven't found any info on how to replace the timing chain and components. Any help would be appreciated
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How many miles has the bike accumulated ????
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I did a few searches on this list as wella s other sites but haven't found any info on how to replace the timing chain and components
Here's more than you would ever want to know....................
http://www.bmwmotorcycletech.info/timingchain.htm
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How many miles has the bike accumulated ????
Not sure... the odometer says 42,000 but i believe it is more.
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I did a few searches on this list as wella s other sites but haven't found any info on how to replace the timing chain and components
Here's more than you would ever want to know....................
http://www.bmwmotorcycletech.info/timingchain.htm
yeah I found that one but was hoping for something with less verbage and more photos showing what to do :)
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hoping for something with less verbage and more photos showing what to do
try this one lots of pics( when you get to the site you will have to go down quite a ways to get to the chain write up
http://brook.reams.me/bmw-motorcyle-rebuilds/1975-r756-build-s-replica/11-bmw-r756-replace-timing-chain-crankshaft-sprocket-nose-bearing/
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Check in the forum's Photo Gallery where I have a photo essay posting on the R65 timing chain replacement.
You'll need considerably more than the parts you've listed: "timing chain, tensioner and arm".
Timing Chain, Fixed Slipper Rail, Tensioner, Spring, Circlip, 2-Cover Oil Seals, 3-Cover Gaskets. There are a couple tips that will save you mucho angst so sing out when you're ready to begin the process.
In the meantime, check out the Gallery.
Motobins Kit #10160 for R45/R65 shows all you'll need.
https://www.motobins.co.uk/bmw-parts.php?model=R%20Series%202%20valve%20Twin&bikeref=R90-6
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If a picture is worth a thousand words, Snowbum will still have you beat, Monte!
In all seriousness, Monte's photo series is an excellent reference. Between that and the links posted above you should be able to get where you need to go. It also might help to buy a case of beer for your friend with 3 airheads in exchange for his assistance. Just make sure you don't "pay" him up front before the work is done ;)
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If a picture is worth a thousand words, Snowbum will still have you beat, Monte!
In all seriousness, Monte's photo series is an excellent reference. Between that and the links posted above you should be able to get where you need to go. It also might help to buy a case of beer for your friend with 3 airheads in exchange for his assistance. Just make sure you don't "pay" him up front before the work is done ;)
Yes, Robert the Snowbum can be a bit long-winded but I love the guy and the time he spends on behalf of us Airheads. he did mentioned on a BMW Facebook page that he is attempting to revise his web site -less wordy and with less red n' yellow blocks. Bob says it's a major undertaking and will not happen quickly. I vote to leave it alone as it's still the best Airhead cure for insomnia.
Re: Timing chain install. The most frequently missed parts that need to be replaced are the two, small donut paper washers. They keep the timing chest in a flat plane and prevent possible alignment, bearing and oil seal issues -so sayeth the Sage of the Sierras. If you don't have new ones on hand. snip a pair from the used chest gasket. Better than nothing.
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And what is the difficulty level on this for the uninitiated? I was told mine would need to be done a few thousand miles from now. I've seen some how-to's online but can't decide if I should attempt it or not, at least not without some assistance. On a scale of 1-10?
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I'd give this job a 6 rating, not hard but you can run up against issues, like the exhaust nuts seized onto the cylinder head, alternator rotor, not wanting to come off, previous owners foul -ups .
But beyond that, it's pretty straight forward .
Also not knowing your mechanical experience, hard to say in your case .
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I thought about the mechanical experience part after I posted. I'm reasonably intelligent, very good at reading explicit instructions. But I'd have to have explicit ones for this as my BMW experience is next to none. I drove air cooled VW's for a long time and did a lot of my own maintenance but it's been a while so it's not fresh anymore. I also rode a shovelhead HD. Did a bit of work on that but not sure how much I learned as it was so damned frustrating.........
My problem is that I have no airhead riding friends so I would be solo doing this, probably posting on here asking tons of questions.
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And what is the difficulty level on this for the uninitiated? I was told mine would need to be done a few thousand miles from now. I've seen some how-to's online but can't decide if I should attempt it or not, at least not without some assistance. On a scale of 1-10?
My Triumph 900 Triple shop manual describes the level of difficulty by using five 'spanner' images. Brit bike hence the spanner usage:
1 - Easy for novice
2 - Fairly easy for beginner w/some experience
3 - Fairly difficult suitable for competent DIY mechanic
4 - Difficult suitable for experienced DIY mechanic
5 - Very difficult suitable for expert DIY or professional
I'd give the timing chain job 3 Spanners for doing just the chain and related bits. That's equal to Bob's "6" rating.
Note that the camshaft sprocket rotates at half speed to the crankshaft sprocket. If you need to replace a pointy crankshaft sprocket, the degree of difficulty ramps up to 4 spanners. With the estimated mileage on your bike, it's doubtful the cam sprocket will need replacement so you're back to 3 spanners.
After setting the engine at TDC with the cam sprocket's timing mark dimple at the 12 o'clock, strongly encourage you to paint white the six o'clock tooth on the crank sprocket. Yes, there is a tiny scratch timing mark on the crank sprocket but it is hidden by the bearing.
I failed to do this at the front end of my chain job and believe you me, is was a royally nervous PITA to confirm proper gear timing on the back end of the job. 180 degrees out of synch can be destructive. One tooth off will mess up ignition timing and require disassembly. Don't be that guy.
Buy a proper, hardened rotor removal tool. You'll need it.
Be sure to remove the ground cable from the battery as you'll be mucking about the diode board which has an exposed terminal that is always hot. Don't be that guy either.
Now that your anxiety level is at, what, 6 outta 10? Relax. It's not brain surgery and if you have a question, just stop and post your concern. If we don't know the answer, we'll make something up. What could possibly go wrong :D
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To which I would add a new outrigger bearing and a good three jaw puller to remove the old one.
This bearing runs in a oil mist and carries no load in the normal sense. which means that theoretically it will have an inordinately long life.
But, [there is always a "but"] extended slow running or idling sees them run dry, they are subject to a certain amount of inevitable misalignment. and they are relatively cheap and relatively easily replaced.
What is VERY important if (like me) you buy your bearings at a bearing supply house rather than pay the OEM or after-marker parts supplier premium, be very sure that you and the supplier know that you need a GRADE "C " bearing and why. Unless you live in a large city it is unlikely that they will have a bearing in that size on the shelf (it is an odd size) and if they do I'm betting that it will be a grade "A" and that the supplier will suggest that it will make no difference.
In 999 out of 1,000 he/she will be right. If your luck is like mine - you will be the "1".
The Grade "C" bearing is specified not because BMW had a sudden corporate change of heart and wanted to specify a potentially cheaper bearing (they are in fact no cheaper and will probably cost extra due to having to be flown in) but because a Grade "C" bearing is designed with more internal "space" and is therefore able to tolerate slight misalignment without damage to itself and, more importantly, without damaging the bits it is mounted on through being unyielding to radial misalignment.
Consider the unloved outrigger bearing - It is a slip fit on the overhung nose extension of the crankshaft. outboard of it is a large lump of relatively difficult to balance soft iron and wire and is inserted into a non-adjustable, non-precision "mount" on assembly.
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Finally got my newly acquired 82 R65LS carbs cleaned and the bike started up fine and idled nicely. Once warmed up there is a metallic noise that seems to come from the front of the engine and quickly disappears when throttle is given.
The previous owner gave me a new timing chain, tensioner and arm with the bike. I'm assuming I need to replace the timing chain , etc.
I also had a friend come over who is an airhead owner (has 3) and owns an automotive repair shop to listen to the engine. He feels that it is the timing chain and components.
I did a few searches on this list as wella s other sites but haven't found any info on how to replace the timing chain and components. Any help would be appreciated
Got my R65LS safety inspected for Pennsylvania today so it is legal to ride on the streets. Took it out for a 15 mile ride and it seems to run very nice. Came back and checked the "S" mark on the flywheel with a timing light and the mark is right on and does not jump around so now I'm not 100% sure that it is a timing chain. I have 2 other questions concerning same noise on this bike...
1. Let's say it is a timing chain/ tensioner. What damage is possible if I leave the timing chain alone and use the bike over the spring and summer and wait till next fall and cold weather to replace the timing chain? I have several other bikes to ride and will not be putting many miles on the R65LS, perhaps 500-600 miles if that
2. If not the timing chain what else might the noise be? What else might I be at risk at damaging if I continue to use the bike.
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If you are not familiar with airhead bikes, they make some odd noises, if you're coming off of Asian bikes .
Have you used a mechanics stethoscope and try to narrow down the area of the noise .
Honestly, until you get to the 80,000 plus miles, there usually aren't many issues with the timing chain .
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Mine makes The same sound you are describing and goes away above 1000rpm
I just assumed that is why it is recommended to keep the idle above 900 rpm
Honestly I am not worried about it
I have 53000 miles showing on the Odometer.
I get no metal on the filter when I change it every 5000 miles
I use 20W 50 Mobile One
Their is a reason they call them tractors
They are damn Tough and really aren't very refined. :o
A lot like an old Land Rover ;D
I thought their was something wrong with my transmission and clutch until I took it apart and realized that is just the way they are and had to learn how to shift it.
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If you are not familiar with airhead bikes, they make some odd noises, if you're coming off of Asian bikes .
Have you used a mechanics stethoscope and try to narrow down the area of the noise .
Honestly, until you get to the 80,000 plus miles, there usually aren't many issues with the timing chain .
We used a long screw driver to try and narrow down the area of the noise but it was still not conclusive enough for our ears.
I have a 74 R75/6 and my mechanic friend has 3 airheads, one he has owned since the late 70's, and neither one of us has ever heard this metallic noise.
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Mine makes The same sound you are describing and goes away above 1000rpm
I just assumed that is why it is recommended to keep the idle above 900 rpm
I'll check the idle again but today it was colder out and the idle seemed to be higher than when I first got the bike. Originally the idle was around 900, today I'm thinking more like 1200 rpm and the noise was still there after the bike got fully warmed up. I'll have to note at what rpm it goes away.
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If you are not familiar with airhead bikes, they make some odd noises, if you're coming off of Asian bikes .
Have you used a mechanics stethoscope and try to narrow down the area of the noise .
Honestly, until you get to the 80,000 plus miles, there usually aren't many issues with the timing chain .
We used a long screw driver to try and narrow down the area of the noise but it was still not conclusive enough for our ears.
I have a 74 R75/6 and my mechanic friend has 3 airheads, one he has owned since the late 70's, and neither one of us has ever heard this metallic noise.
You got me a little worried now
Compared to a automobile it is pretty easy to take the front off to check the timing chain.
I will probably do that before we go to the MOA rally in July
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Regarding the timing chain replacement on my 1981 R65, The timing case noise was quite evident on acceleration but diminished with throttle off and decelerating. After opening up the timing chest, the reason was quite obvious...
The nylon tensioner shoe had been worn down to the point that the chain was grinding on the base metal of the shoe's pivot arm. Everything else was pretty much copasetic. But since I was already in there...
If memory serves, the latest tensioner is fabricated as a complete nylon/plastic part.
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With a bike of unknown mileage and an unusual sound to a rider accustomed to airhead bikes, probably would be a good idea, just for peace of mind .
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Pulled my timing cover off
Found that the chain has already been replaced but I think the gears are original and the tensioner is worn
I will get my parts tomorrow from MOTO Bins and should have it back together before Saturday
Will see if the slow Idle rattle is gone
I suspect my noise is the rocker arms rattling between the stanchions
Hardest part so far has been getting the crank sprocket off
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Having recently replaced the timing chain (at 110,000 km) I agree with Montmil assessment that this is a 3 spanner level of difficulty and I strongly commend to you his excellent photo series to guide you through it.
My humble assessment is that in the scheme of things another 5-600 miles on the timing chain and sprockets will make only a marginal difference to the wear and will not cause other damage issues to the bike.
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Thanks for your reply!
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I'm trying to get into the photo gallery but it will not allow me and says my emil is not valid?
How can I access? Would like to see the photo essay on the timing chain replacement.
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I'm trying to get into the photo gallery but it will not allow me and says my emil is not valid?
How can I access? Would like to see the photo essay on the timing chain replacement.
Just found the notice that I need to be set-up by Justin. sent him notification.
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I'm trying to get into the photo gallery but it will not allow me and says my emil is not valid?
How can I access? Would like to see the photo essay on the timing chain replacement.
Just found the notice that I need to be set-up by Justin. sent him notification.
Try: User Name = motoleo
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Pulled my timing cover off
Found that the chain has already been replaced but I think the gears are original and the tensioner is worn
I will get my parts tomorrow from MOTO Bins and should have it back together before Saturday
Will see if the slow Idle rattle is gone
I suspect my noise is the rocker arms rattling between the stanchions
Hardest part so far has been getting the crank sprocket off
I had difficulty in getting the crank sprocket to go all the way on.(with it heated up)
After 4 attempts I had to polish up the bore of the new sprocket
It must of had some burs on the edges
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All back together timed and running
Best $150 I have spent on it so far :D
Pulls better and the dead feeling when cold at full throttle @ 4000rpm is much less .
The rattle at below normal idle (1000rpm) is gone.
It is to bad that the PO didn't replace the tensioner and crank sprocket when they did the chain.
They also did not put the gasket spacer around the top 2 cover bolts either >:(
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So no now that you have done it Mrclubike, how would you rate the difficulty? Would you agree with the spanner ratings mentioned previously?
As far as the sprocket, is it something that, if it looks OK, leave it alone? Or should you consider replacing it as a matter of course while you're under the hood? I haven't been able to access the Photo Gallery here so I haven't seen that write up. But I looked one of the links here that showed a very detailed one and it did look like the sprocket added some difficulty.
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The sprocket was the most difficult part of it.
I had no problem getting the old one off after I heated it up with a Propane torch as I was pulling it off.
I have a Snap-On CG 270 10 ton puller that helped a lot.
Just make sure you screw a bolt into the nose of the crank shaft to push against or you will have a big mess on your hands
Getting the new one on was another story
I tried heating it in the oven but that was very slow to heat up.
It was also a little crazy running thru the house with a hot chunk of metal :o
So I ended up using the heat gun (one of the must have Air head tools) and a temp gun.
If I would have just cleaned up the sprocket bore from the start It would have gone on much easier
I think getting the the front engine tool kit from Cycle Works may be money well spent if you don't have access to a very good puller
http://www.cycleworks.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=29_33_51&products_id=367
Getting the new baring on was a snap
heated it up with the heat gun and it slid right on
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I saw that kit in the write up I looked at. A bit pricey but I was going to ask if it would be a necessary thing or just something that would make things easier if you had one (or the $$ to buy yet another specialty tool!). That write up was nearly exactly how you described, especially the running around with hot parts in your hands.
Thanks for the info, I'll have to ponder whether or not this is within my capabilities..........
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I saw that kit in the write up I looked at. A bit pricey but I was going to ask if it would be a necessary thing or just something that would make things easier if you had one (or the $$ to buy yet another specialty tool!).
For what it is worth I would buy a Chinese bearing separator/puller which will cost around $50US. That will get the old sprocket off.
The single MAJOR advantage that the special tool has is the ability to press the new sprocket on. However providing the internal bore is clean (and the crank too) it's been my experience that heating the new sprocket and chilling the crank with a towel soaked in ice-water means that the sprocket will go on with only light tapping from a rubber mallet.
Apparently it is OK to heat the sprocket to red heat - I once thought that doing that would destroy the "temper" of the sprocket then it was pointed out to me that chain sprockets tend to be un-tempered steel and that they last just fine.
I still stop at "light straw" though. My tool kit includes an ancient Sievert kerosene blowlamp which get heat into thing at an amazing rate. Of the several sprockets I've done over the years all bar one basically slipped on needing only a very gentle tap to finalize. The odd one out was a bear and I was nearly at the point of running a flap polisher through it when the owner of the bike mentioned that they had several cans of freeze spray at home. Three cans of freeze onto the crank and the sprocket just a little north of my usual light straw colour and it went on without further problems.
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I was able to grip the old gear on the teeth without a bearing splitter to get it off .
I didn't think a splitter would get into it
When I had to remove the new sprocket to reheat and try to install it again I was able to get back behind the teeth and grab on the hub.
I am glad to hear that others have gotten a gear on the tight side
Like you I was going to get real aggressive on polishing the bore if it didn't go on during my last attempt.
I to heated it up to a light straw color on the last attempt
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I was able to grip the old gear on the teeth without a bearing splitter to get it off .
I didn't think a splitter would get into it
I put the splitter onto the teeth, I figured that I wasn't planning on re-using them.