The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Red_Hen on February 20, 2016, 08:40:16 PM
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Hi Everyone - want to share a long process of my attempt to solve an ignition issue. Seems many of us with the electronic ignitions go through this sooner or later - riding along and the bike starts quitting and bucking like a bronco - leading up to this post, I'd installed a new Hall Sensor in one of the bean cans and did it again in another. It's not the kind of work I'd want to do on a regular basis. After overhauling the bean can, bike still was quitting so I replaced the ICU. That solved the problem but created another one - the tach needle started jumping like crazy!
Matt Parkhouse lent me a Dyna blue and told me if it worked, to send him a check - I'd had a used Bosch dual tower coil and that was after replacing the OEM Grey Crack-o-matic. After replacing the ICU, bike ran great but tach jumped and then when I towed my bike from MN to CA it was hard to start - it had been through weather that included snow and rain.
I'd installed a Dyna Blue Coil and bike fired up right away so one problem solved but bike still was conking out BUT tach no longer jumping! Decided to stop farting around (been messing with the ignition off and on over the past 2-3 years) and ordered the Red Centre Gen 3 Bean can and ICU and a new ignition harness from John Olive / Rally Sport Ignition in Australia - should arrive this week.
In preparation for new ignition system, removed tank today and started going through all the wires - one thing I definitely noticed was when I put the bike back together say @5 years ago, I didn't know as much as I do now and had used a combination of Gorilla Black Duct tape and Electrical tape to wrap the harness - did that because the OEM sheath was deteriorating. Didn't like my "past work" and removed all the sticky gooey gorilla tape (don't ever get lazy like I did and use this crap!) Took a couple hours but I was alone and uninterrupted and found the work to be quite therapeutic. Removed wires that went into different harnesses/connectors on the frame and routed for minimal stress on the wires - really took my time and did a nice job working with the best loom tape I could find locally at a Pep Boys - 3M Black Friction Tape - worked like a dream!
One thing I definitely noticed was that the ground wires that attach behind the voltage regulator and are held on by one of the two allen bolts that holds on the VR was loose - not sure what would have caused the conking out but one never knows! The other thing I caught was corrosion where the Ignition module harness plugs into the other white plug that goes where? Forgetting now. Wiring harness, I think . . .
Then I removed the Ignition harness - the wires were stiff and not brittle but old and the connectors to the bean can are non OEM.
Will I have solved my problem? Not sure but getting closer and wiring harness sure is tidy and clean! Will keep you posted when I install new ignition - excited about this new product because of where the hall sensor is mounted - completely serviceable and should eliminate the need to carry a spare bean can and just a spare hall sensor.Hi Everyone - want to share a long process of my attempt to solve an ignition issue. Seems many of us with the electronic ignitions go through this sooner or later - riding along and the bike starts quitting and bucking like a bronco - leading up to this post, I'd installed a new Hall Sensor in one of the bean cans and did it again in another. It's not the kind of work I'd want to do on a regular basis. After overhauling the bean can, bike still was quitting so I replaced the ICU. That solved the problem but created another one - the tach needle started jumping like crazy!
In December, towed my bike from MN to CA and then R65 was hard to start - it had been through weather that included snow and rain.
I’d reached out to Matt Parkhouse asking him about the wisdom of buying a new $200 Bosch dual tower coil w/out being sure the coil was a problem - Matt graciously shipped me a Dyna blue and told me if it worked, to send him a check - I'd had a used Bosch dual tower coil and that was after replacing the OEM Grey Crack-o-matic.
After installing the Dyna Blue Coil, the bike fired up right away - one problem solved!
Unfortunately, she still was conking out BUT tach no longer jumped!
Decided to stop farting around (been messing with the ignition off and on over the past 2-3 years) and ordered the Red Centre Gen 3 Bean can and ICU and a new ignition harness from John Olive / Rally Sport Ignition in Australia - should arrive this week.
In preparation for new ignition system, removed tank today and started going through all the wires - one thing I definitely noticed was when I put the bike back together say @5 years ago, I didn't know as much as I do now and had used a combination of Gorilla Black Duct tape and Electrical tape to wrap the harness - did that because the OEM sheath was deteriorating. Didn't like my "past work" and removed all the sticky gooey gorilla tap
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One thing I don't like about the DYNA coils, is how close one of the terminals is to the mounting bolt, I put an insulating material, tape on the nut and heat shrink on the terminal end to prevent grounding out the ignition system .
One of your pictures shows how close it is .
I added an additional ground 10 gauge ' American wire gauge ' from that ground point on the voltage regulator, back to the battery negative terminal, I didn't like how the factory is relying on the path back to the battery from the frame, through the engine / transmission .
I added a non-OEM battery negative cable from the battery to the front side of the lower right engine to transmission bolt, to replace the OEM cable that goes to the transmission vent speedometer drive area .
Corrosion on the connector for the ICU, is not good, remove as much as you can .
Getting back to your original problem, the engine cutting out .
I had a similar issue about 20 years ago .
I was told to go through the wiring harness, looking for loose connections corrosion, etc . , I found a few pins in the connectors, where the lock that keeps the pin from backing out when the two halves of the connector were broke off, fixed that and no issues for a few years, then it started again and the ignition switch failed shortly afterwards, when you shook the switch when it off of the bike, you could hear parts rattling around inside the switch .
Occasional electrical issues are the hardest to trouble shoot, until they break and stay broke . >:(
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Hello !
The wiring harnesses are still available for these bikes.
The ignition harness with it's two AMP Junior connector is particularly useful because these connectors are waterproof and allow you to use OEM parts unmodified.
If I were you, I would buy the ignition harness new from BMW and a male AMP Junior connector and make the circuit as it was designed. Then if still having some problems, I'll try to debug them one at a time.
I have a source for the AMP Junior connectors, both 3 and 7 pin, which is cheap but it is in Europe (Germany) so you may want to shop more locally.
Hope this helps
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One thing I don't like about the DYNA coils, is how close one of the terminals is to the mounting bolt, I put an insulating material, tape on the nut and heat shrink on the terminal end to prevent grounding out the ignition system .
One of your pictures shows how close it is .
I added an additional ground 10 gauge ' American wire gauge ' from that ground point on the voltage regulator, back to the battery negative terminal, I didn't like how the factory is relying on the path back to the battery from the frame, through the engine / transmission .
I added a non-OEM battery negative cable from the battery to the front side of the lower right engine to transmission bolt, to replace the OEM cable that goes to the transmission vent speedometer drive area .
Corrosion on the connector for the ICU, is not good, remove as much as you can .
Getting back to your original problem, the engine cutting out .
I had a similar issue about 20 years ago .
I was told to go through the wiring harness, looking for loose connections corrosion, etc . , I found a few pins in the connectors, where the lock that keeps the pin from backing out when the two halves of the connector were broke off, fixed that and no issues for a few years, then it started again and the ignition switch failed shortly afterwards, when you shook the switch when it off of the bike, you could hear parts rattling around inside the switch .
Occasional electrical issues are the hardest to trouble shoot, until they break and stay broke . >:(
Bob - thanks for your comments - will do same to bolt & connector to avoid grounding out from connector to coil. Also like idea of running extra ground from coil bracket to neg terminal on battery.
What is a good way to get into the female side of the white connector that Ignition harness plugs into? I have a sharp pick tool I used but still would like to do a better job.
Along with the new red centre bean can & ICU, also ordered a new electrical harness as OEM is definitely shot.
Maybe don't need the new bean can and ICU but at this point, I just want to ride the bike and not get stuck on side of road again. Here's a picture of the Red Centre bean can - note that Hall sensor mounts to back of the can - pretty smart design! About the same cost as what you'd buy from the dealers in the states.
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Hello !
The wiring harnesses are still available for these bikes.
The ignition harness with it's two AMP Junior connector is particularly useful because these connectors are waterproof and allow you to use OEM parts unmodified.
If I were you, I would buy the ignition harness new from BMW and a male AMP Junior connector and make the circuit as it was designed. Then if still having some problems, I'll try to debug them one at a time.
I have a source for the AMP Junior connectors, both 3 and 7 pin, which is cheap but it is in Europe (Germany) so you may want to shop more locally.
Hope this helps
Thanks, George - ordered a new harness - if you can post picture of the AMP Junior connector, please do. Thank You.
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Better than a picture, the source of the device !
http://www.kabelschuhe-shop.de/Connecteurs/Connecteurs-AMP-JPT/AMP-JPT-Set-3-pin-05-10-mm-%B2::7983.html
As you will notice, there has been an improvement as the thin wire retainer has become an integral part of the connector and is much thicker than it was.
They also have the 7 pin elsewhere on the site.
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Thanks [ch128077]
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I just remember seeing this on a site in the US .
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/IGN-Plug088set-p/ign-plug088set.htm
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I not sure about using the 3M tape you used to rewrap your harness with but here is the best thing to use.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-BMW-Mercedes-Audi-VW-High-Heat-Wire-Loom-Harness-Tape-Tesa-/301876934212?hash=item4649447644:g:VkcAAOSwgQ9Vy96T&item=301876934212&vxp=mtr
This tape is made just for wraping looms. It does not have a thick sticky adhesive on it. So if you unwrap it. It will be clean and not all covered in glue
I know If you use the hardware store type cloth electrical tape it will get all sticky and gooey like the other stuff you used did and be messy if you unwrap it
I am also curious why you used a Blue .7OHM coil
I thought we were supposed to use a Brown 1.5 OHM.
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I don't know if this is the case here or not, but there is an upgraded ICU from BMW for the airhead bikes, called the ' heavy duty ' ICU .
It is recommended that the .7 ohm ' blue ' Dyna coil be used with it .
http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
Scroll down a bit on the link and it states it there .
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I not sure about using the 3M tape you used to rewrap your harness with but here is the best thing to use.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-BMW-Mercedes-Audi-VW-High-Heat-Wire-Loom-Harness-Tape-Tesa-/301876934212?hash=item4649447644:g:VkcAAOSwgQ9Vy96T&item=301876934212&vxp=mtr
This tape is made just for wraping looms. It does not have a thick sticky adhesive on it. So if you unwrap it. It will be clean and not all covered in glue
I know If you use the hardware store type cloth electrical tape it will get all sticky and gooey like the other stuff you used did and be messy if you unwrap it
I am also curious why you used a Blue .7OHM coil
I thought we were supposed to use a Brown 1.5 OHM.
The OEM Bosch Dual Coil coil is 0.6 ohms - Matt Parkhouse had a Dyna Blue to loan me and when I installed it, bike immediately started. Dyna Blue is 0.7
One thing I am pretty sure about is when I installed the Black Bosch 0.6, (to replace my grey oem crack o magic) it fried my white letter OEM Ignition Control Module - I replaced that with a ICU from Euromotoelectric which seemed to solve the problem - for awhile.
3M makes good products - not wanting to wait to order the tape online, I got at the auto parts store what made the most sense - way better than the Gorilla black duct tape :)
Not sure where weak links are here but am pretty sure it has to do with electrical connectors and a good chance the ICU harness due to its age and that the connectors had been modified.
Not sure where I'm going but goal is to have a reliable roadworthy BMW R65LS!
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Only the very last of the airheads from 91 had very low resistance coils like 0.6 ohms and an ignition module with dwell control that could cope with it without overheating. Using that coil with an earlier module would risk frying it. 81 - 91 coils were 1.5 ohms.
If you have the latest ignition module then the difference between 0.6 or 0.7 ohms is immaterial.
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Only the very last of the airheads from 91 had very low resistance coils like 0.6 ohms and an ignition module with dwell control that could cope with it without overheating. Using that coil with an earlier module would risk frying it. 81 - 91 coils were 1.5 ohms.
If you have the latest ignition module then the difference between 0.6 or 0.7 ohms is immaterial.
Exactly correct Barry [ch128077]
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If you have the latest ignition module then the difference between 0.6 or 0.7 ohms is immaterial.
Arrgh! just when I thought I had my knowledge sorted onthe topics of ignition fro my 1984 R65.
I had some dramas late last year which resulted in me buying an OEM coil, I am still reeling from the cost....
Compare and contrast the wife's R65/80 which was originally "points in a beancan". 25 years ago I replaced the points with a Boyer Bransden system. It is still working perfectly.
Almost 35 years ago I fitted a Boyer Bransden to my R100 - it is still working.
If the silly hall effect system plays up one more time, it is for the high-jump. Best of all Boyer now make a kit to directly replace a hall effect
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The latest ignition module has both time limited dwell control and a maximum current limiter so in practice minor variations in primary resistance don't make any difference. The nominal resistance changes anyway as the coil gets hot in use which would increase the resistance by as much as 10%.
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Package arrived - new ICU is mammoth sized and won't mount on stock OEM ICU location unless I build a bracket - anyone install the Alpha system or simiar and where did you mount ICU? - may have to fabricate an "L" shaped bracket. *You can see in picture that heat sink when mounted on stock plate sticks up above frame and probably will interfere with tank fitting on frame. If I drill 2 holes through aluminum, it should fit but seeking to come up with a better idea.
New wiring harness is different than OEM and is also used on converting a points bike to electronic ignition - my question is on existing coil, there are 4 wires - 2 green striped and 2 black - are both green and black wires coming from the same place and can I simply pull one of each and replace with the green and black wire on new harness? there also is a brown ground wire that attaches to frame.
Existing OEM ignition harness plugs into bean can, ICU and a 3 prong white plug that comes off main wiring harness - does the green striped and black wire go to the frame - will use voltmeter and if I get continuity between wire on harness to coil, will replace with new wires on new harness.
FWIW, Rick Jones now carries this exact same bean can with replaceable Hall sensor on end of can - apparently I found the new model before Rick had posted it on his site. It's a slick design.
Will keep you posted as I progress with installation - was hoping it would be a "breeze" but taking time as usual!
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Fabricated brackets & icu mounted.
Green black wires from new harness connected to coil. Brown wire grounded to chassis.
Pulled plugs & cranked & nice bright sparks both cylinders.
Tomorrow tank goes on & will let you know what happens!
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You have to determine which black ire goes to the tach and keep that wire and discard the other going to the old ignition mod
Same with the other determine which green wire is ignition positive and keep it discard the wire going to the old mod
Then connect your new wires up with the matching remaining wires on the coil
FYI the coil is not polarity sensitive
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Ken,
BMW sell a bracket to accommodate the current too big ICU.
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Do you know part # ?
Thank you, George!
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Yes :
Item 04 SUPPORT DE BOITIER DE CDE D'ALLUMAGE 61 31 1 244 832 price (€) 2,69
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I am not sure that OEM adapter bracket will fit where the old one is
Looking at the pictures on this listing
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Bracket-Ignition-Module-BMW-R-61-31-1-244-832-p/ignmod-bracket832.htm
Has anyone actually used this bracket.
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Dont think either bracket will work on r65ls
Package came with bracket shown from euromoto but t would not fit
Holes on bracket need to be drilled horizontal so icu plug faces down
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The OEM bracket fits on an 1982 R65. And th LSis just cosmetically different.
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thanks, George - will definitely take a closer look at it!
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Still stumped!
Bike started right up and sounded better than ever!
Took a short ride and after about 2 minutes she conked out again!
Removed dash and looked at all connections to key switch and everything looks good.
Removed the kill switch and wires are clean.
Pulled plugs and have a very nice spark but plugs are dry.
Removed fuel bowls and fuel is present.
Carbs have been overhauled - any suggestions as to what could prevent fuel from getting from carb to the cylinder?
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I am not sure that OEM adapter bracket will fit where the old one is
Looking at the pictures on this listing
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Bracket-Ignition-Module-BMW-R-61-31-1-244-832-p/ignmod-bracket832.htm
Has anyone actually used this bracket.
I've just ordered one cause I reckon the cost of the bracket plus post is less than the time it would take me to bend up my own. i ordered one of their super-heavy duty ICUs while I was at it.
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I cannot think of any fuel condition that would "perform" as you describe, i reckon that in the grand tradition of such things, you have an electrical problem.
Suggestion - hot wire your ignition so that it is powered unconditionally and then try again - if it doesn't cut out chances are you have a wiring loom, connector or switch problem.
If it does cut out with hot wired ignition start proofing your ignition wiring harness, closely followed by ignition components.
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I cannot think of any fuel condition that would "perform" as you describe, i reckon that in the grand tradition of such things, you have an electrical problem.
Suggestion - hot wire your ignition so that it is powered unconditionally and then try again - if it doesn't cut out chances are you have a wiring loom, connector or switch problem.
If it does cut out with hot wired ignition start proofing your ignition wiring harness, closely followed by ignition components.
Thx Tony - Will hot wire ignition tomorrow - got new icu, bean can, wiring harness - must be something in the loom.
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I don't see how the new adapter bracket and IGN MOD can fit between the mounting boss and voltage regulator :-/
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I don't see how the new adapter bracket and IGN MOD can fit between the mounting boss and voltage regulator :-/
I'll send you pictures of mine installed when it arrives......
Also
The offset bracket is available from Motobins for GBP3.50 see
https://www.motobins.co.uk/displayfinal.php?q=70821&topsearch=1&go=GO
Also I have one of the later large heatsink ICUs purchased very cheaply from an electrical wholesaler in Poland - I will look a the box tonight and post details.
My $AU100 purchase of the Euromotorelectrics ICU and bracket is my very last attempt at beating reliability from what I regard as a silly system. To be fair the R65 has never stranded me, but I have had a long series of annoying faults which has diverted time from other things I'd rather be doing. A partial list of my "woes" is below.
When I first got my R65 runnign again it was fitted with a "crack-o-matic" and, you guessed it, it was cracked. In fact it stopped working when I gave the bike a bit of a post rebuild bath.
I fitted a double ended coil from a Mercury Outboard, 1.5ohm measured. This worked very well indeed initially but degenerated into coughing, misses and rough running. Eventually diagnosed as plug lead insulation breakdown from arc-thru to the starter motor cover, quite simply the coils were too hot for the job.
Next I purchased a genuine BMW coil, not realizing that it was one of the new 0.5ohm models. This worked well, but fried the 1984 OEM ICU, not completely but its failure mode would not allow the engine to rev much past 2,000 RPM.
I initially fitted a (very cheap) ICU from a Chinese source, it worked OK but the time allowed for the engine to start turning over was way too short and I had to flick the kill switch off and then back on immediately prior to hitting the starter button.
Somewhere in the midst of all this I rebuilt 1 beancan with a HKZ101 which worked just fine, but didn't solve the problem I was chasing. Then I found a Chinese soource who claim to hold a licence to manufacture "genuine" 2AV54s, I bought a couple of samples and rebuilt another beancan with one - no problems so far, but I am currently carryign a spare beancan just in case....
Finally I purchased a Bosch ICU and it has now been fitted fro some months. I currently have NO ignition problems, but as indicated earlier I am a bit over the whole silly idea of hall effect triggers and ICU whilst still retaining mechanical advance/retard, I am also uncertain whether the Bosch part is capable of living long term sinking a 0.5 ohm load - and in any case BMW reckon they won't last, hence the enlarged heatsink.
So, last roll of the dice, the Euromotorelectrics part and the Polish one for backup.
As I've said elsewhere - one more electronics related ignition fault and Boyer Bransden here I come.....(and in fact had I realized they made a unit specifically to replace the hall effect I would have bought one about a year ago).
To the OP, my apologies for hi-jacking your ignition thread for this rant.
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Thanks guys - corresponded with John Olive, provider of new ignition - he asked if I timed the trigger unit - although never had to do this with OEM can from BMW, I'd always removed it then replaced it w/out cranking engine so it would be in right position. Maybe orientation is different with this new can - don't know but it should be the same - Haynes book says to set flywheel to S and then insert can and then time - but where I'm stuck right now is getting the bike started - as previously posted, when I installed ignition bike started immediately, ran about a minute or two an then died - spoke to a friend and we both agree if fuel starvation the bike wouldn't die so quickly but since then, bike hasn't started.
Yesterday drained tank, took external fuel filter out of the equation, inspected fuel lines to each carb and confirmed no obstruction in fuel lines. When I drop carb bowls, they're about 3/4 full - when I did fuel flow test, fuel flowed out of both carbs very consistently. Maybe something stuck inside the carb? Will double check that air is getting into system but never was a problem before. Will double check valve clearance but bike started up fine and am pretty sure they're set right - got spark, got fuel - maybe she's out of time. Does orientation matter of the (2) dogs on front of bean can that connects to front of engine - I'll alternate those too.
Will remove air manifolds today and see if more air introduced will cause bike to fire. also getting the spark plug testing tool that goes between plug and wire to confirm bike is sparking when I crank her. Will report back
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Remember they will run on just one cylinder ;)
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Remember they will run on just one cylinder ;)
Removed air tubes, cranked engine and lots of air pulling through!
I did remove tank again today - pulled the connector apart - could've sworn I'd gone through them all - at any rate it looked really ratty inside so I used brake cleaner, q tips and a piece of a nail file to clean up the connections - two green/blue wires and one green/red - from schematic, looks like this runs to the kill switch - I may be on to something. Will spend some more time tomorrow. Only question in my mind is if this was a bad connection how come I saw spark when cranking engine with plug grounded on cylinder?
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She's runs!
Probably a combination of things and exactly "what" I can't say and really don't know.
Here's what I did today that caused her to immediately start and so far, not conk out.
R&R Spark Plugs - Installed NGK BPR7ES (equivalent of Bosch W5D) Removed new NGK BPR8ES New plugs were gapped within manual specs.
Set static timing - although probably not necessary with an electronic ignition - positioned flywheel to "S" and R&R new trigger unit - probably did nothing. Will time the bike later today with a timing light.
Checked valves - both exhaust valves were mighty-tighty - that was the last thing I expected! Intakes were in spec but not exhaust - now set to .10mm intake and .20 exhaust.
As previously posted, drained gas tank, cleaned petcock screen but wasn't too bad - it is missing the round gasket - think I'll order one for good measure and install it when tank is low again.
New ignition trigger unit, ICU, Ignition harness.
Made sure all connections have heat shrink around perimeters so as not to short out against coil!
Confirmed air was drawing through back of carb and it was.
Confirmed spark.
One more important detail - the green power wires posted previously - corroded connections could have had everything to do with bike cutting out but symptoms were so like a hall sensor or bad ICU it was really hard to put my finger on what was the exact problem. Bike is in pretty good shape and hopefully will bring me lots of love!
Thanks for all of you who provided input on this project!
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Remember they will run on just one cylinder ;)
Removed air tubes, cranked engine and lots of air pulling through!
I did remove tank again today - pulled the connector apart - could've sworn I'd gone through them all - at any rate it looked really ratty inside so I used brake cleaner, q tips and a piece of a nail file to clean up the connections - two green/blue wires and one green/red - from schematic, looks like this runs to the kill switch - I may be on to something. Will spend some more time tomorrow. Only question in my mind is if this was a bad connection how come I saw spark when cranking engine with plug grounded on cylinder?
That looks like your front brake switch connector to me