The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: redzap on August 15, 2007, 02:52:34 PM
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Hi guys/gals. I'm a first time user and could use some help with a diagnosis. I have a 1983 R65 with about 16k miles on it. I'm riding along and it cuts out and won't restart. The petcock was open and there was gas in the carbs (no hesitation before it cut out), all the lights and kill switch are working, the battery is charged and new, and it turns over, but won't start. I have checked the continuity of the coil and it reads acording to spec. I have put some fresh heat sink paste on the ICU (I think its called). The connections of the wires look good and no fuses are broken.
Any help would be appreciated!
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Welcome Redzap, first you have to determine if the problem is fuel, ignition, or engine problem ( valve problem, compression, etc.) . Not knowing what kind of maintenance has been done on the bike, we'll have to start with basics. I would check the ignition system for a good blue spark, if you have the original gray ignition coil, it is a suspect part, even if it check's out good with a multi-meter. They are commonly referred to as the crack-o-matic coil for their habit of having the plastic case crack. After that , it's checking for loose, broken wires, broken switches, corroded connections. Not a fun job, a lot of have us been there. I hope you're a little familiar with using a multi-meter, this problem is going to require you to check continuity of wires, and check for voltage at connections. Where on the planet do you call home? One of us may be in proximity to you.
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Thanks for the reply. I hail from Helena, Montana, so if any of you are nearby, let me know. I'll be at the Beartooth Rendezvous rally this weekend so I will definitely be picking some brains. (I'll be riding my other beemer!)
Anyway, I know the bike has had regular maintenance and wonder what could be wrong with the engine for a bike of this low of mileage. I did take the coil off and inspect it and did not see any cracks. The connections appear clean but I will recheck things with a multimeter.
Also, I read on an old post to check the beancan/hall sensor. What and where is the beancan? Sorry for my ignorance. Thanks...
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The 'bean can" is under the front engine cover. It's possible that it is bad, but the failure rates of this component is quite low.
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Thanks Bob, What is the bean can's technical name and what does it do?
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I don't know of an official term, it normally goes by the name the Hall Effect sensor, or ignition sensor. It contains the centrifugal spark advance mechanism, and a solid state 'Hall Effect' transistor, that converts a magnetic signal to an electric signal that the ICU uses to send an electrical pulse to the ignition coil. In quite simple terms of course.
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It's just called the ignition sensor, but it also contains the centrifugal advance unit.
I just browsed Snowbum's web site, sure he would have a trouble shooting article for the ignition system. I can't find one. Does anybody know where there is one? A nice, simple, step by step sequence and process of elimination? Just for Airheads?
I can't write one, but I'm sure it includes confirming power to the coil, stuff like that.
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Found some info for ya here: http://www.thunderchild-design.com/info.html#can but I'm still looking for a nice easy simple step by step I remember seeing somewhere on the interwebs.
rich
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Rich, that's the kind of information that needs to be entered into the new technical section : Technical FAQ / Procedures.
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Today is getting a bit busy but heres more that someone who's bored may want to condense for the tech section. http://www.deathstar.org/~flash/ig_trig.html
http://www.roadkill.com/~davet/moto/timeCanister.html
http://www.geocities.com/fwarner_au/mc_things/bmwr_ign_sensor.html
rich
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For some reason the coils go bad on these bikes quite frequently, especially on bikes not ridden much. Before I bought my bike the coil went out at 5000 miles. It tested OK, but was bad. Bike ran fine after replacement. You might as well get one , as you will probably need it sooner or later......Dew.
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Rob Frankham has some good info on this ignition on his site at:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/robpages1/Pages/vane_switch_tester.htm
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Sorry I've been out of touch; I appreciate all your feedback. I tested the "beancan" and it does not appear defective. So, it seems the problem lies with the ECU or coil (even though it tested out okay on the multimeter). Is there a test I can do on the ECU to rule that out before I order a new coil?
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Sorry I've been out of touch; I appreciate all your feedback. I tested the "beancan" and it does not appear defective. So, it seems the problem lies with the ECU or coil (even though it tested out okay on the multimeter). Is there a test I can do on the ECU to rule that out before I order a new coil?
Rocky Point Cycle sells an ICU for about 35 bucks; that's much cheaper than replacing a coil. I think there are other sources of inexpensive ICUs, but I got mine from Stan. I've been down that road tracing my weird intermittent problem.
Are you getting spark to the plugs? Ground them really well and spin the motor with the starter.
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Thanks, Ed. I've taken each plug out separately, placed it back in the plug wire and held the end on top of the cylinder head fin while cranking over the engine with no spark in either plug. So...what does this tell me? ICU or coil problem?
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What model BMW bike do you have other than the R65? I don't know if you can remove the coil from your other bike without a major expenditure of time or not, and try it on the R65. Just a suggestion.
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I have a '95 R1100R. I will look around and talk to other airhead owners as that might be a good way to go...thanks!.
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Hi Redzap
You have a sickpatient here so eliminate the most likely causes of illness first. For instance, if your ignition coil is Bosch part number 0.221. 500.200 (its the original) then it really belongs in the trash not on a bike. If it's not failed yet it will do later, probably at the worst possible moment. I experienced R65 coil failure while holidaying in Swizerland and had to squeeze a couple of old Lucas car coils, provided by an auto electrician, up under the tank to keep running. So pretty much any coil will give a spark if everything else is ok. The ECU broke a couple of thousand miles later on that bike, so possibly a connection there ;D. The reliable (new) R65 coils are Bosch numbered 0.221. 500.203.
I see lots of good links on this thread to help with your diagnosis.
Good luck
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I would put a test light on the negative terminal of the coil and crank the engine. If the light blinks on and off it is getting a good signal from the ignition module and bean can and the primary side of the coil is probably good. So if it blinks good I would think the secondary side of the coil is bad. Have the plugs out and connected to the plug wires and set on the cylinders.
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Well...I did test the beancan per instructions from you-all and Rick Jones of MotoElektrik and no problem there. So...I went ahead and bought one of his Dyna coils and that did not solve the problem. I guess I will try the new ICU from Rocky Point Cycles unless anyone has any other ideas. Thanks guys...Chris
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Ouch, the new coil didn't fix it. $$$$$$$$$
Did you find this page, by Snowbum?
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Ignition.htm
He shows a test for the ICU, though they're cheap enough it can't hurt to have one for a spare.
If I understand right, your bike won't start at all, so this is not an intermittent problem. Is that correct?
Good luck,
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Ouch is right...yes, Ed, the bike had cut out suddenly while I was riding it and there was nothing alarming before that. It has not started since. I will reread the snowbum article to see if there is something I missed. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that it is something really simple?!
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Even though the new coil didn't fix the immediate problem you probably saved yourself a future walk (probably at night and raining) as with the stock coil it's not if but when it will fail.
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If you are out of ideas-
One other possibility is to put a German Electronic ignition on the front of the Alternator. This eliminates Timing chain/bean can advance problems. The advance curve is electronically generated. And there is one that will go with the Dyna coil you have bought.
Check out http://www.stephenbottcher.net/~omega/index1.html
Stephan will return you e-mails on which one to buy (based on the DYna Coil you have bought).
Works great on my 1980 R65.
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Stephan, My R65 is a 1983 which does not have points but has the electronic ignition so unless I am mistaken, the product you describe would not work for me. If I am wrong, please let me know...thanks
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Stephan, My R65 is a 1983 which does not have points but has the electronic ignition so unless I am mistaken, the product you describe would not work for me. If I am wrong, please let me know...thanks
I (semper gumby) am 99 44/100th sure that there is a set up that will work. This is because you have a Bosch Alternator (The mounting point). This is a completely independant system. The determining factor is what kind of Dyna coil (how many ohms) you have bought. There is an Omega ignition that will work with that coil. After this is installed, the "beancan" will just sit there and prevent oil from leaking out of the engine. (i hope). This system is expensive so make sure you have exhausted all other possibilities like checking all the wiring you have that goes to the ignition you now have. If there is a broken power wire to your existing system, buying the Omega system will do you no good at all. It uses the same wires!
TTFN,
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Wow, I wonder how reliable those are. They look like a better idea than our electronic ignitions, as they run off the crank shaft and not the cam shaft. Though the timing chain controls the valve timing as well, so it's not like you can just ignore it. I wonder what the "Upgrade from Single to Dual Output Ignition" is, if it's to do away with the wasted spark we have now. Probably just for dual plugged machines, though. :(
redzap, swapping your ICU will be lots cheaper than the Omega, but I wonder if it isn't something like Semper Gumby suggested, like maybe a hot wire to the coil that isn't getting current. I don't know the wiring system enough to just tell you "make sure you get battery voltage to the x terminal of your coil" but that could be the simple thing you're worried you are missing.
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Ed, your guess of it being for dual plugged machines is correct. They will work on all airheads (different units depending on the OEM ignition type) except ones that have had that cool looking aftermarket alternator installed. You have to have the stock alternator as this unit bolts up to the alternator. The cool thing is that you leave the stocker in place and you essentially have a spare ignition trigger. Once installed, switching back to running off the stock trigger only takes a couple of minutes.
I don't understand over a lot of folks obsessing over the wasted spark. From a design point of view it results in a simpler system...
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snip
I don't understand over a lot of folks obsessing over the wasted spark. From a design point of view it results in a simpler system...
I thought I was the only one. ;D
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Maybe you have obsessed enough to make it SEEM like a lot of folks! ;)
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<snip> I wonder what the "Upgrade from Single to Dual Output Ignition" is, if it's to do away with the wasted spark we have now. Probably just for dual plugged machines, though. <snip>
Yes. Dual Output = Dual plug. And there is still wasted spark. Wasted spark doesn't become a problem until you get to really high RPM under race conditions. In the kind of riding we do there is plenty of time for the system to *recharge* before the next spark.
TTFN,
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Good News, guys! I bought a new ICU from Rocky Point Cycle, installed it and the bike fired right up. I'm psyched! So now I have an extra coil which I guess is a good thing. I appreciate all your help and input; it has been invaluable. I learned a lot.
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Cool!
Now you're probably wishing you had tried the I.C.U. before the coil.... Happy riding!
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It still is good that you replaced the stock coil as it WOULD fail, eventually, and probably at the worst possible time.
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Greetings from Greece and a reregistered "old" newbie.Being a marine tech I've used a lot of ignition troubleshooting guides so sometime ago to while away a rainy afternoon I drew up a guide for R45-R65 (points only).It probably wants some more working over but it could be useful if stuck in the back of beyond.
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Wow. Maybe somebody can move that down to the other section, for FAQ type tech stuff. I'm not real knowledgeable about that stuff but it looks good to me. I love how clean it is. Thanks, Dave.
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Hi redzap,
Glad you got it running!!!!
TTFN.