The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: sirwompus on August 22, 2015, 11:15:35 AM
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I searched and was very surprised to not find anything. Although I don't hate points, point-less ignition systems do appeal. Has anyone here fitted an electronic ignition system? As with anything R65 I had difficulty determining who's systems would work with my 1979 points in a can. The one that seems most promising is this one which times from the alternator (crank) shaft:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Electronic-Ignition-System-BMW-R-Airhead-1970-1995-p/edl-boigns.htm
No where could I see the Dyna III or Alpha Classic listed as working with points in a can.
Thoughts?
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I searched and was very surprised to not find anything. Although I don't hate points, point-less ignition systems do appeal. Has anyone here fitted an electronic ignition system? As with anything R65 I had difficulty determining who's systems would work with my 1979 points in a can. The one that seems most promising is this one which times from the alternator (crank) shaft:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Electronic-Ignition-System-BMW-R-Airhead-1970-1995-p/edl-boigns.htm
No where could I see the Dyna III or Alpha Classic listed as working with points in a can.
Thoughts?
John Raski of EME is a standup guy. I have done business with him for a lengthy period; as have some other R65 forum members. Trustworthy Denver-based outfit.
Rick Jones of MotoraddElektrik is currently out-of-stock on his Alpha electronic ignition system which replaces the OEM bean can. Rick does not yet have a date as to when the supplier will ship product to him. Another straight shootin' supporter of the Airhead community.
That said, there is nothing wrong with the points ignition system. It's stone-ax simple and troubleshooting is easy. A spare set of points and a fresh condenser are all you need for an extended road trip.
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It's stone-ax simple and troubleshooting is easy. A spare set of points and a fresh condenser are all you need for an extended road trip.
There is a points amplifier that you can add to take the current off the points(no more pitting)...... if it should go bad, you can convert back to straight points on the road....... once again "stone-axe simple" no black boxes to order from the dealer
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The crank driven systems are technically the best as they eliminate any minor timing chain issues as well as facilitating retention of the points as a backup . They are expensive though. The other extreme is to use a points booster which is very low cost. I can't honestly see the point of anything in between as it would be potentially less reliable on the road than what you already have.
I have a points booster built from a kit. Cost £10 and hasn't missed a beat in however many years it's been in. 5 or 6 I think.
Points in a can is a good ignition system and with the aid of a booster and perhaps a new coil it can be made better at very little cost.
If you do go the expensive route a suitable new coil will be needed otherwise much of the potential benefit will not be realised.
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Personal plug for Boyer Bransden. Fitted to my R100 in the mid 80s and to my wife's R65/80 also. They are truly a "fit and forget" system, best of all they also take care of advance and retard, have no special requirements for coils and, well, basically they just work.
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Welcome,sir...sounds like you know your way around bikes.
I'm a big fan of simplicity (hence the "Luddite tag") so I'm sticking with points. Besides, setting the points and timing 'em is cool old school bike stuff.....most of the kids I work with wouldn't know where to start...
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When I think about the latest ignition systems used on IC engines
The electronic ignition system may not be "stone age" but inst much more complicated than "Bronze Age"
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Personal plug for Boyer Bransden. Fitted to my R100 in the mid 80s and to my wife's R65/80 also. They are truly a "fit and forget" system, best of all they also take care of advance and retard, have no special requirements for coils and, well, basically they just work.
Same here, Tony, with my R100S Boyer ignition. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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I'd steer clear of the Boyer. I had one in my 79 R65, and all it gave me was pinging and little blobs of aluminum on my spark plugs. Plus, it was a headache to get into the bean can (I had to get creative in a somewhat destructive fashion for the fitment to fit). Plus, the instructions looked and functioned like they came out of the Soviet era. The fellow at Rocky Point admitted that about a 1/4 of all purchasers had similar problems.
After that, I got the EME set-up, and it was like night and day. Starting became much easier, and the instructions and fitment were a breeze. I've now had it on my machine for a couple of seasons, and have had no troubles at all.
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I'd steer clear of the Boyer. I had one in my 79 R65, and all it gave me was pinging and little blobs of aluminum on my spark plugs. Plus, it was a headache to get into the bean can (I had to get creative in a somewhat destructive fashion for the fitment to fit). Plus, the instructions looked and functioned like they came out of the Soviet era. The fellow at Rocky Point admitted that about a 1/4 of all purchasers had similar problems.
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I am a bit surprised you had so much trouble, I've fitted a few and I know of a number ofothers, none of which had the troubles you did. Mind you, I have fitted exactly 1 to the rare 1979 points in a bean can R65 owned by my wife.
I do recall having a few trials and tribulations extracting the points plate and advance/retard mechanism to install the Boyer kit, but after that setting it up was a cinch.
Aluminium pick-up on the plugs could be cause by an over advanced ignition, but if you set up the Boyer according to the instructions that won't have been the cause (they are timed at full advance revs, not idle - and usually are a little retarded at idle speeds).
Assuming you timed the ignition correctly, the problem was more likely the wrong plugs.
Anyway, each to their own - there are many fine products available I like Boyer because mine has a 30 year track record of being as reliable as a ball pein hammer.
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I think sir Wompus has asked the same question over on ADVR and is getting a mixed response about Boyer.
My impression is there must be a bit of skill involved in the installation making it less plug and play than other systems and that may be why there are some negative views around. There is no question that Boyer comes up more often than other ignition systems when some one is having problems. Wasn't there something about early versions being voltage sensitive and I might be doing Boyer a disservice but I also recall one ignition system causing running on and instead of fixing the root cause the manufacturers response was something ridiculous like press the brake pedal. These issues may now be resolved but mud tends to stick.
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These issues may now be resolved but mud tends to stick.
The one i recall is that the Boyer could be hard to start for one of two unrelated reasons. The first is that as a result of being timed at max advance revs they could sometimes be a little retarded at cranking speeds, the second is that early Boyers put ignition advance in at quite low speeds, causing all kinds of dramas. Both problems were curable - involving making sure that you had the right model Boyer for your cam (the problems particularly hit R100Rs and RT models where the owners had swapped cams after breaking off the "nose" (or misguidedly thinking that RS (or 90S) cams offered a pathway to additional power - as I recall nearly all early Boyer woes came down to cams being changed without also fitting the correct cam gear and takign note of the ignition timing difference between models. Just putting the old cam gear on a new cam (and remember in duplex cam days these were regarded as just about a "life of bike" part) and/or continuing to use the original timing marks on the flywheel were the major causes of dramas.
The second and separate cause of boyer woes was (and remains) failure to read the bloody instructions.
A brief digression. My wife's bike has a 1986/87 R80 engine fitted, it retains the 1979 R65 crank (to avoid having to buy a new gearbox) and has a "sports" grind cam fitted by the original owner of the R80 engine (and I only new that because the engine's PO thoughtfully left a piece of paper in a plastic bag tucked in one of the "voids" in the timing cover.
Now if you (as an example) had only ever had points ignition and superficially read the Boyer instructions, after fitting the thing you would fiddle around getting it started and then set the timing at idle. You might then wonder why it was gutless and slower than it had been with a tired R65 engine- so much so that you might end up thinking about the work involved to revert the "points in a can" Boyer conversion back to points.
Then, if you were lucky, the penny would drop and a closer read of the the cam notes and the reading of the spec for the R80 engine generally - A calculation of where max advance should be and a new mark on the flywheel - followed by setting the timing at max advance revs and the problems went away. - At idle the "std" timing mark isn't even visible which caused some consternation for a "real" mechanic who worked on it a few years back - a quick phone call set him straight.
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I have a 79 R100 engine with the points in the can and I added a Dyna booster to it. I have not had one issue although the bike hardly gets ridden (it is a sunday cafe racer kind of bike).
I recently acquired my first R65 (a 1980) and I am thinking of doing the same to that engine. Unless there is a bullet proof electronic ignition, I am thinking the booster will be just fine.
-josh
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A brief digression. My wife's bike has a 1986/87 R80 engine fitted, it retains the 1979 R65 crank (to avoid having to buy a new gearbox)
The value of proof reading! I did in fact mean to say that the engine retains the R65 flywheel!!!.