The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: jamestnewsonr65 on March 25, 2015, 02:32:20 PM
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There is one bit of my bike which is bugging me.
I cleaned up all the external parts when I refurbished the bike and had the engine top cover and air box powder coated. The only part I didn't get powder coated at the time was the timing cover and now it just sticks out like a sore thumb!
I would like to get this part powder coated / painted and have the clymer manual to follow for the procedure.
I have a couple of questions to ask.....
1. Is it ok to powder coat this part as long as the front and back are completely masked off?
2. Are there any other parts/gaskets needed except those listed below which are needed for the installation?
I've had a look at realoem and can't seem to see anything else needed, but clymer mentions replacing both the camshaft and crankshaft oil seals.
Alternator Seal (11 14 1 255 011)
Timing chain cover gasket (11 14 1 338 428)
Upper case gasket washer x2 (11 14 1 338 429)
Any other pointers on possible jobs whilst I have the cover off would be much appreciated.
Bike is a 65LS dated 12/1981
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There is only one oil seal, shaft seal and that is for the crankshaft .
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=11_1711&hg=11&fg=14
Item # 8 .
The camshaft seal is an o-ring on the ignition canister, aka the beancan .
You only need the other three gaskets that you have already mentioned .
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Great thanks, always good to have clarification on these things.
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Why do you need any new gaskets or seals to pull off the front cover for powder coating?
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Well, most likely, they are the originals, a little over 33 years old .
I know I would not reassemble with old parts like that .
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Why do you need any new gaskets or seals to pull off the front cover for powder coating?
The item in question is the timing case rather than the front engine cover.
IMHO, I'd consider replacing the chain, tensioner bits and chain guide, "while I was in there".
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Why do you need any new gaskets or seals to pull off the front cover for powder coating?
The item in question is the timing case rather than the front engine cover.
IMHO, I'd consider replacing the chain, tensioner bits and chain guide, "while I was in there".
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Are there any special tools needed to remove the alternator rotor from the camshaft?
I was thinking of removing the timing chain and tensioner, but will have a look at the ones on there before I decide.
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Are there any special tools needed to remove the alternator rotor from the camshaft?
Yes. There is a hardened, simple tool required that screws into the nose of the shaft. Several incidents of owners making up a similar "looking" tool made from a softer bolt. End result is the bolts deforms and jams everything together, leading to more expensive extraction repairs. Ugh.
Check with MotorWorks or Motobins and buy one. Very economical so no sense in trying to save a quid and buggering the deal.
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Are the timing covers cast aluminium or steel?
Sorry for the questions but i'm not where the bike is at the moment so cant check with magnet.
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This diagram shows nicely what is going on when the rotor bolt is substituted with a removal tool.
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The timing chain case is aluminum.
The tensioner shoe that rides against the chain has a plunger that is backed up by a coil spring. There is a specification for the spring's relaxed length -look up Snowbum's site for that- and I found my R65's tension spring too short after many years of service.
I bought the full timing chain replacement kit from Motobins that had everything in one tidy package for less cost than buying the individual bits n' pieces.
Also, I have a photo-essay on replacing the R65 timing chain in this forum's Photo Gallery. Check it out as there are a couple tricks that I wish I had known before starting that project. If you do not yet have your double-secret ticket to the gallery, contact a forum administrator for your kitchen pass.
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I thought all he wanted to do is powder coat the front cover. So you want to powder coat the timing chain cover, too? The little part that's exposed to the outside?
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It is the timing chain cover I am looking to powder coat, otherwise I wouldn't need the seals or special tool.
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@Montmil, I dont suppose you have the photo documention you created of the timing chain replacement as i've requested access to the photo gallery section but no reply as yet.
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Besides photos, there is a healthy bit of text explanations that are quite important, so...
Go to the forum home page and click the "members" tab. Highlighter in red is our Admin, Justin. Send him a PM with your request. Also try Bob Roller for assistance if no joy from Justin.
That's the best I can do for ya. The forum does need some way to help new members get into the photo gallery.
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I'm sorry - I also do not have the keys to the photogallery - even though it is linked to the forum it has its own admin account & settings, and neither Bob nor I have them at this time.
We'll see if we can rouse Justin, and maybe come up with a backup plan for the future.
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Rec'd this evening an email from the R65 forum administrator, Justin Bowser"
I've set 3 people up today for access. All they have to do is PM me. One mentioned that a thread said to contact Rob. I'll make a new thread with instructions.
Monte Miller wrote:
Some members requesting access to the Photo Gallery. Neither Bob nor Mike can assist with a "kitchen pass". The group needs either your assistance. Perhaps allow your sub-administrators to help active forum members? Appreciate any help you may be able to provide.
Monte Miller
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I removed my timing chain cover today and changed the chain, tensioner etc, but I fear it may all not be good.
I had the bike in gear so that the wheel would not move but once the chain was removed the wheel was turned slightly so that I now fear the timing sprockets are out of alignment. Is this a major disaster???
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If the timing marks are off, yes it will be a major issue .
Getting the marks aligned is not difficult, but you need to lay on the floor in front of the engine and get a good view of the two marks .
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I can see the mark on the camshaft sprocket as it is on the front inline with the woodruff key. Where is the one on the timing sproket?
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The timing mark on the crankshaft sprocket, isn't very visible due to the bearing on the end, but if you look at it like I said in my previous post, it's easily viewed .
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There is a very faint mark in the pic below, but apart from this I can not see any other marks on the sprocket or shaft etc.
It appears as a small dink in the ring on the outside shown in the yellow box on the image
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Any tips on where I should be seeing the timing mark on the top sprocket are gratefully received.
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Did you have the engine at TDC and the cam gear's "dot" at 12 o'clock before removing the chain? I'm guessing you left the spark plugs installed and, if not at TDC, perhaps compression caused the crank to turn a bit. If the cam gear was in the 12 o'clock position when you removed the chain, it's doubtful the crank gear would move much at all. But you must confirm this.
The mark you have high lighted is not a timing mark. Appears to be a slight nick from a PO's maintenance chore. The mark you are looking for is a tiny, single etched line approx 0.25-0.375 inch long and well hidden by the bearing. I tried all sorts of mirrors, lights and creative language but never could spot it.
Another option is to get the right side piston at TDC. It should be very close as is. Watch the rocker arms and look into the spark plug opening for confirmation. Check the flywheel for the "OT" On Top marks. When in position, the crankshaft gear should be in alignment
Install the chain and by hand s-l-o-w-l-y rotate the engine in the running rotation. Slowly! If you are a tooth off, there will be valve-to-piston contact. Go slowly and do not force the crank to turn any further. If the engine rotates freely, you should be ok.
Did you ever get into the Photo Gallery? Could have saved you a lotta time and worry.
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Thanks for the reply. It is a bit daunting for a novice like me, but you would have thought after 10 years of classic car ownership I would be used to getting my hands dirty!!
I do have access to the image gallery now and it is a massive oversight on my part not to set the engine to TDC before starting really.
Everything was fine in the removal of the timing cover and it came off with ease. The engine is still in the bike which is fine and the cover came off despite the engine still in the frame.
The problems came when I started to replace the timing chain. The lower sprocket timing mark was at about 7 o'clock in position and the removable chain link was in a very difficult position to get to.
So I put the bike into 5th and rotated the back wheel so that the link was in a better position to remove. Once the chain was removed the rear wheel was turned again as I wanted to feed some of the chain through. It was at this point I realised my newbie mistake and have no way of knowing where the alignment now sits.
The engine was NOT at TDC when I started.
The pictures shows how it is at the moment. I put the tensioner and chain in just so that I know where all the bits are and I know the chain link is not fixed in this picture also.
I tried to spot the timing line on the top sprocket but could not see anything. Do you know where it should be? On the horizontal section or vertical etc?
One I thing I did notice is that the tapered end has a definite mark on it (visible in the pic) like a timing mark as it seems more deliberate. For now I aligned it to this as I did not know what the timing mark looked like.
I understand that I will have to remove all of the chain etc to get the correct alignment but am just a little unsure of how to tell where the bloody mark is.
Thanks for the help so far. It really is an invaluable resource.
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If you lay down on the floor to the side of the engine and look up, you can see the mark on the tooth of the crankshaft sprocket easily, but if you try to view it from any other angle, the bearing gets in the way .
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If it is on the tooth I can understand why it is difficult to find. I will have another crack at finding it again tomorrow and let you know how I get on.
I might get it close by following monte's suggestion with the right hand cylinder then at least I will know that the timing mark should be close to where it needs to be which might make finding it easier.
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If it is on the tooth I can understand why it is difficult to find. I will have another crack at finding it again tomorrow and let you know how I get on.
My recent experience with my wife's bike (R65 with 1987 R80 engine in it) was that I could not find a timing mark on the crank gear. I set the engine to the valve timing mark and turned the cam so that the mark on it was at 12 o'clock. I turned over the engine a few times to satisfy myself that all was well and then tossed it back together. I figure that the maximum error would be a tooth either way and over the years BMW has fiddled with cam timing to a greater extent than that.
In retrospect I think that the crank gear mark was simply worn off as the new gear had one.
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Ok so today I have some progress which I think is good.
I think I may have found the elusive timing mark! With the valve timing set to tdc by rotating the wheel and making sure OT mark was aligned there was a vertical mark on the sprocket teeth which was very faint but I think it was there.
I marked the end of the tapered shaft so that it was easier to know where the mark was and checked the faint timing mark was aligned correctly
At the moment when the marks are aligned and OT is visible, the left hand cylinder (if I was sitting on the bike) is free and at tdc. I confirmed this by spinning the valve rods.
The 2 pictures below show the marks in relation to the right and left at TDC respectively if viewed from sitting on the bike.
Hopefully this is all ok now and the engine turned over easily enough without the spark plugs in. I guess if there were any valve to cylinder moments then it would be noticeable in the rotation force needed to turn the engine.
I have a couple of questions though....
- How tight does the guide rail on the left of the timing chain need to be?
- The nuts in the centre of the valve covers have cross threaded, is it possible to buy the stud and nut?
Thanks for all the help and hopefully it is all ok. Any comments welcome.
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You've done well, Grasshopper.
The chain guide should be positioned parallel to and just touching the chain. Snug up the bolts guttentight.
If the threaded stud into the cylinder head is gerfunken and you can not double-nut it for removal, clamp on your ViceGrips and unscrew it. You could make your own new stud using a matching thread metric bolt with enough threads to match the old one. A drip of red LocTite on the end that goes into the head is OK. Note the threaded hole in the head goes clear through and can often be screwed in so far that the end is visible when looking straight down on the head. Leaves very little purchase for the top nut... hence the LocTite.
The domed, threaded center nut is a BMW item, so visit your stealership. I'm amazed by its $ dollar value to BMW Motorrad. Be advised that the two nuts on the fore n' aft ends of the rocker box do much of the gasket sealing work. That chrome-domed devil does not need to be torqued to forearm vein popping pressure. Snug is 'bout right.
Did you install a new spring behind the chain tensioner piston? Always a good idea.
Last note: Do you have one or two Airhead shop manuals? I ask because the full prep and procedure for removal and refit of timing chains is right there.
We live and learn, although some experiences can derail the learning process. [smiley=drowning.gif] Beer helps.
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I am happy that the thing is back together now and appears to work, albeit without starting the engine yet!
I have the clymer and haynes manuals and find the clymer to be much more help. I followed the procedure for the timing chain but couldn't see where it mentions the chain guard install.
I did change the spring behind the tensioner also as it came as part of the set from motobins. I have to say the bits I took off looked hardly if not any worn at all, but all have been changed anyway.
I will look into the creating a new stud, but I might just buy the replacement from motobins.
I owe a huge thanks to the forum for helping me understand this a little more.
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Thought I would just conclude this post from a while back.
I've finally got the bits back from the powder coaters after a 7 week wait for some reason and happy to report that the help with making sure the engine was back at TDC really did work and I've achieved something else I didn't know about.
Also set the timing with a strobe light this evening and it seems to have helped as the engine before timing was having trouble idling correctly, but adjusting the timing smoothed it out and seems happy at 800/900rpm now.
One thing I did find with the timing light was that it was very hard to really see the 'S' mark as it was a little dirty, but if it is running ok then it cant be too bad for the old thing.
Here's a pic of it all back together with the freshly powder coated parts at the front, as I know everyone loves pics.
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When you're looking for a simple, easy chore to attend to, remove the flywhell timing plug. Bring the flywheel to where the timing marks are visible. Use a carb cleaner-soaked Q-tip and swab clean all the stamped marks.
Using another Q-Tip, dab some white paint into the indentations. Neatness not an issue just now.
Let dry. Next, use a scrap of old t-shirt and a short popsicle stick with the end squared off. Dampen lightly with the carb cleaner and wipe away the excess paint, leaving white paint in the stamped letters.
Next time you do a timing check, those letters will 'pop' for you.
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Great tip, thanks for your help and pointers in getting me back on the road.