The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: steve hawkins on February 11, 2015, 03:26:16 AM
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My battery has not survived the winter on my R100, so I am looking for a new one.
However I would like to take the opportunity to fit one of them there small batteries, that can be mounted any ways up, so that I can tuck away somewhere out of sight.
Can anyone put me onto the right track?
Cheers
Rev Light
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A lithium battery will certainly do the job, but it will cost a bomb.
I am using a gel cell battery in the R65 - it was a bit of a punt but cost no more than a cheapish wet cell battery.
To date the biggest thing is the extremely slow self discharge, it was nearly 5 months from when I bought it to the first time i cranked the R65 over - and that was only to prove the starter rebuild was a success. Then I cranked it quite a long time to oil it up and finally went for a start - ran for a while, all with the alternator not connected.
Impressed the hell out of me. Be aware however that there is no graceful failure with a gel cell, they are literally perfect one day and won;t even pull in the starter solenoid the next.
Lithium are lighter too. But gee they cost. I am gettign one for the KLE, but that is in recognition of the type of road I plan to use the KLE on. The Yamaha has a Lithium battery in it, obviously no start load, but I use it to run a couple of LED lights in a wand when camping and to recharge cameras, mp3 players and SPOT gps locator. I am impressed with how long the Lithium has survived, including being accidentally run to near flat a couple of times.
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I'll echo Tony's experience with a Gel battery in terms of very slow self discharge rate and they can be mounted anyways up except I think up side down. I've never left one 5 months but I've no doubt they do it as my spec sheet says 82% charge retained after 6 months @ 25 Deg C and 65% after 12 months which is remarkable.
Lithium would have to come a long way down in price before I'd consider one. I don't know what the published self discharge rates are for Lithium but if they are anything like laptop batteries they will not be as good as a Gel or AGM. At the price I'd be wanting perfection.
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Lithium batteries are the hot set up with the race bike and custom, trailer queen scooter folks. I occasionally visit a local road race course during open track bike days and that's pretty much all I see. Same goes during my visit to the recent IMS show -batteries concealed in seat bum stops. Lightweight. Tuck in up anywhere and in any position. As one of our own members would say, "Lighter. Faster."
I understand the lithium battery requires an entirely different charger than what we are commonly using on our sloshed and/or SLA/AGM units.
My feeling is, for a street bike, the cost is exorbitant for both battery and charger in terms of gain. However, there is a certain cache to be gained in the bike park.
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Well the R100 battery sure is a monster. I would love to lose it for that 'hipster bobber' look that the bike almost has.
I will see what the price is for the UK....What am I thinking? - if you yanks think its expensive its going to be exorbitant over here.
Googling,
Rev light
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Well, the prices seem to have dropped to somewhere near the 'odyssey' ball park. I have yet to confirm. But they do not seem to be as expensive as they once were.
But that might be manufacturer/quality dependent.
Watch this space.
Rev Light
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Well the R100 battery sure is a monster. I would love to lose it for that 'hipster bobber' look that the bike almost has.
Seems like you should be able to use the same battery as the R65? I'm on my second sealed AGM battery, first one I got from the dealer for 120$, second one I ordered from Gruber for 50 or 60$. It's big, but at the same time I think it fits in the sidecover on my 400.. My first AGM battery lasted almost 6 years, and I'm better about using a tender now so I have high hopes for the new one.
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When choosing an equivalent Lithium battery be careful about what they say is equivalent. Apparently the truth is somewhat stretched as they will say for example that a particular battery is equivalent to a conventional 18 Ah when in fact it's only 4 Ah. What they sort of mean is that it will crank like an 18 AH battery would ...but not for very long. Another issue is they perform very poorly in the cold.
If you have the time and the inclination this is the definitive thread on Lithium ion batteries for bikes
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
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Yes, lithium battery performance does depend alot on the temperature - I wouldn't try to run one here with so much of the riding season near 32F. They can provide a fair amount of juice at first, too, but fade fast so if it is cool and the bike doesn't start easily, you may be sitting there awhile.
The charging voltage/current profile for Lithium is definitely not the same as the guys say above - most motorcycle chargers do not provide the proper profile to work properly charging them, so you'll likely be shopping for a new charger, too.
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If the lithium batteries are so finicky with how you charge them with an external charger, isn't a motorcycle charging system the worst way to treat these batteries ?? ::)
They are anything but a stable charging platform .
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Simple standard Lithium cells are finicky - they cannot be discharged below 2.9V or charged above about 4.2V without incurring some loss of capacity. The cell needs a small trickle charge of about 5%-10% rated charge current if it is below 3V, and from 3V and above it can take its full charging current which can be 10X the trickle current. Once the voltage reaches about 4.2V per cell the current must be stopped or there is risk of causing plating damage to the cell. Furthermore, the cell needs to be charged to its full rated voltage to maintain full charge capacity. If it is only charged to about 95% rated voltage, it may be at only approx 70% charge capacity.
Consequently, the larger lithium battery packs for motorcycles etc, actually consist of a "package" of several cells, and some embedded "smart charge control" device electronics to manage these current profiles to the cells when the net current is going into the battery instead of out of the battery. These things enable it to survive in an automotive/motorcycle charging environment, but are also partly why the lithium packs are so expensive. If you had a primitive/simple lithium cell like what is commonly found in a cell phone, the charge control electronics have to be incorporated onto the phone's circuit board.
Because the battery pack has to sort of control its own charging, the changes in the charging current can confuse the typical "smart" battery chargers that expect a fairly linear charge current rate, from higher current at low voltage/high discharged state down to a constant trickle current at fully charged state. If the smart external charger tries to treat the lithium batter pack like a lead acid/AGM battery it may not charge the lithium cells fully and may get faked out into thinking it is charged. This might be a scenario where a "dumb" battery charger might actually work better than a smart charger, provided that the charge control electronics in the battery pack are up to the task of fully controlling the charge of the cells.
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If the lithium batteries are so finicky with how you charge them with an external charger, isn't a motorcycle charging system the worst way to treat these batteries? <snip> They are anything but a stable charging platform.
As I mentioned earlier, lithium motorcycle batteries are the hot setup on many race bikes that operate on a total loss electrical system. After each practice session and/or heat race, batteries are swapped out and placed on a charger powered by the racer's portable electric generator that's happily chugging away beneath the team's pit shade awning. That same generator also runs the electric-powered starter rollers for the race bike's rear wheel.
So far, we have from previous posts: a small, expensive battery that's finicky, can be permanently damaged by overcharging, requires a special 'smart charger', is temperature sensitive to both hot and cold, and may crank as an 18AH battery but not for long..."
Gosh. What's not to like? ::)
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That's my point exactly !!!! ;D
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All the issues explain why Lithium batteries are unlikely to become mainstream. Even the guy on ADV that I provided a link to admitted most people would be better off with an AGM unless the weight was making the decision.
As for charging surely something that mimics the bikes charging system would do the job in other words a simple voltage regulated charger set at 14.3 volts or whatever the exact voltage should be.
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Its not the weight in my case. Its the size, and the fact that what I really want to do is hide the battery out of sight. There is no hiding the standard battery, remember its an R100, the battery is bigger than that fitted to the R65.
What I have found out so far is that:
1. I am going to need at least 12 cells, 14 or 16 cells might be safer for an R100 - not so small then.
2. Some manufacturers/sellers are very light on spec details, particularly sizes and capacity, in some cases.
3. I have heard that some batteries are supplied almost in a 1 size fits all case, that can have a significant amount of 'air' in there, which is not going to help me. Unless I strip out the contents to make a battery to my 'size' and of course, void my warrantee.
4. All specs and promises should be taken with a pinch of salt.
5. As usual, what the yanks pay in dollars, we pay in pounds, irrespective the exchange rate. (i.e. if its $250 in the USA, its £250 in the UK).
6. On the plus side, my bike is not and will never be festooned with lights, heated clothing and other accessories.
7. Our charging systems, if working within specs, should be able to charge one of these batteries quite adequately.
8. A change in behavior of the operator is required. This battery will give its all, instantaneously, but will take some time to recover. If you have starting issues, you can use all it has to give very quickly, if you buy a battery that is too small. If you go on a short trip and use all your fairy lights, heated grips, jacket, etc. Then park up. The likely hood is, you won't be starting the bike next morning. If you park you bike outside overnight, in freezing temperatures, it might not crank over in the morning.
In summary, specifying the right battery, with the right amount of capacity is very important. Even the smallest batteries can crank over a motor in ideal conditions. But you still need that extra capacity, especially if you are going to run her through the winter. Try not to leave the bike outside overnight if its very cold.
I am still interested. But I need to hold one in my hands. Or build one myself?
Cheers
Steve
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Here is a good write up on using lithium batteries from Web Bike World.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-battery/li-ion-motorcycle-battery/shorai-vs-ballistic-li-ion-motorcycle-battery.htm
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The biggest problem I have is the price difference between a Ballistic (for example) 12 cell and a 16 cell battery.
The 12 cell is aprox £150. Which is bad enough.
The 16 cell is aprox £300 - which is eye watering.
The 16 cell version was developed for Harley's - so there is a special
'Harley Tax'.
Guess what they recommend for an R100?
Cheers
Steve H
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If the lithium batteries are so finicky with how you charge them with an external charger, isn't a motorcycle charging system the worst way to treat these batteries? <snip> They are anything but a stable charging platform.
So far, we have from previous posts: a small, expensive battery that's finicky, can be permanently damaged by overcharging, requires a special 'smart charger', is temperature sensitive to both hot and cold, and may crank as an 18AH battery but not for long..."
Gosh. What's not to like? ::)
If you are buying a Lithium battery as a replacement for a wet cell battery, make sure that it incorporates the necessary on-board circuitry to deal with interfacing with (for example) a motorcycle charging system.
There is possibly no "dirtier" charging system than a 1980's era Yamaha trail bike, when faced with a fully charged battery the voltage in the battery circuit will frequently "float" at up to 18 volts - the onboard circuitry goes a long way to explain why the lithium battery has outlasted its wet cell and gel cell predecessors.
For me the attraction was primarily vibration resistance, in such a small battery weight was not really a consideration, but having seen how it survives the antics of a very primitive charging system in my case there is a lot to like .
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Well, I actually went and ordered a 12 cell Ballistic battery. It should arrive today.
Then I need to figure out how to install it.
The whole point being is that I want to either hide it, or at least make it less obvious.
I went for the 12 as I have a post 81 R100, with the light flywheel, slightly lower compression(?), Valleo starter and no extra electrics.
Let you know how it goes.
Rev. Light
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If I've looked at the correct one, that battery weighs only 2.4 lbs. That's some size and weight reduction. Charging requirements don't seem too onerous, main thing seems to be not to exceed 14.4 volts.
Hope we haven't come across too negative on your proposal.
Good luck with it.
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No Barry,
It is right to be skeptical, and there have been issues. Especially with people picking batteries that are too small for their bikes, it might be able to turn the bike over well enough, but if there is nothing left to give after, you have to run the bike long enough to recharge it. They do need a modified behavior on the part of the operator. Same for cold weather. For-warned is for-armed.
It was also expensive, more than I was expecting, the above price was modified by postage and the dreaded VAT. But if I did not try it now, when I needed a new battery anyway, when would I?
Interestingly, I was given the idea about making the battery easily removable, so it can be kept inside, in the warm, and only put on when I needed it. slide in cassette and a couple of wing nuts? At least I could then keep it warm! Added security as well.
But lets see the size of it. R100 batteries were always a complete 'arse hat' to remove....My old one took me an hour and involved removing its tray as well. But then my sub frame is not stock either.
Cheers
Rev Light
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Keep us posted on your install, thoughts and usage experience. I was contemplating putting one in my R65 but opted instead to fashion a black, leather, buckled bag to hide the original battery in place. I had a hard time with the prices they are asking, especially since my battery has been holding up fine. When it starts to fail me, I will definitely be trying one of the lithium batteries. Especially since DelTran, who makes Battery Tender, battery maintainers, is only about an hour and a half away. They have their own line of lithium iron phosphate batteries and I can eliminate shipping charges and make a nice days ride out of it.
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It arrived today. It weighs less than 3 lbs. Volume wise, it is about a quarter of the size of the battery I took out. It also weighs just over 16lb less than the battery I took out (i.e. the lead acid battery was 19lb).
And I have removed the battery tray. It wont be needed.
I am still moving it around the empty space to see where I can put it.
As it is a 12 cell battery it will be difficult to completely hide.
Probably under the saddle.
I have some pictures. I will upload then in due course.
Cheers
Rev Light
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Just to let you all know, I have mounted the battery under the saddle in an alloy box I made up for it. You can actually only just see the bottom of the box, as it is mostly hidden by the saddle and the frame tube of the after market sub frame. The battery is mounted on its side.
I have bought a new longer negative wire to connect it to the back of the gearbox, but have decided to install a battery kill switch close to the battery, so that I can isolate it completely, when necessary. And this will allow me to use the original starter wiring. This is what is taking the time, mounting the kill switch. Be done soon enough, then it will be firing up time.
Cheers
Rev Light
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Eagerly awaiting the sound of success!
I think it is a good idea to make a box for it. I'm sure that they make the battery cases on these sturdier than what they do on the weight conscious portable electronics ones, but still, you really really do not want a puncture to occur - the resulting short in the battery can be a highly exothermic event, as we say... I'm dealing with some products now that are prone to doing just that, it ain't pretty.
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Yes,
I have put a little padding inside the ally box to stop it rubbing/moving. It is tight enough for it not to move.....
I was still bashing a bit of alloy plate to mount the battery kill/isolation switch on last night. It will be mounted in the side panel area on the left side, using one of the old battery tray mounts and convenient hole close to where the sub frame mounts. That way I can pick p the old starter motor cable and then use a short link cable to the battery terminal, that is now further back.
I have to paint it tonight, satin black, over the etch primer I put on last night. Should be going by the weekend though.
As is usual, one mod leads onto another, ad nauseum.....
Cheers
Rev. light
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An attempt to upload a couple of pictures from my new phone.
What you can see is a picture of the size of the new battery. Did I mention it was 16 lbs lighter than the one I took out? Probably.
The next one is the current installation. You can just see the corner of the battery box in the top right, above the rear mudguard (fender). Its almost out of view as it is fixed to the underside of the saddle. And also the battery isolation switch
Did I mention that it seems to work
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A better picture
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Steve, just a quick follow up on how the battery is working, in particularly the charging part. I'm taking the plunge and acquiring one of these and want to consider all costs, any changes/modifications needed to your charging system?
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I made no mods to the charging system. Don't go too small. A 12 cell should be plenty for a 65, as long as you are not going to festoon your bike with all sorts of current drawing accessories.... The only extra I fitted was the car type battery isolation switch and only then because I wanted to be able to isolate the battery for long lay-ups - And the handlebar kill switch no longer exists on my bike.
Cheers
Rev Light