The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: coffee_brake on March 30, 2015, 11:00:42 PM
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I need a little help, because I'm at the very bottom of a learning curve for the R65.
OK maybe not the VERY bottom. I'm an experienced rider of mostly Japanese bikes, including early 80's vintage bikes, who does all her own wrenching and rides solo for long distances. I once had a modern BMW. My oilhead was a terrible bike and I hated it and it hated me, and that's all we need to say about that, except that the older Airheads have always had my attention. I mostly love the logo: simple by choice.
I thought I wanted a R90S but while researching that, I found the R65LS. Then one came up for sale near me by a long-time rider I know and trust:
((there are lots of awesome photos on a Craigslist post but I'm a newbie and not allowed to link to it yet))
Looks like it's 100% original except for some better calipers. I rode this bike today, in the rain. Obviously I did not lean it over or push it hard for either acceleration or braking in the wet conditions, somebody else's bike and all. It seemed all solid except the Brembo front brakes: they squealed like a pig at slaughter, even after I dried them off (by using them lightly till I was sure the pads and rotors were dry).
There's the sludgiest, slowest fuel leak out of the left (downhill) carb, which I expected. The plug wires might not be original (they are NGK, is that original on this bike?).
I really don't care about original, I just care about serviceable. Miles are 55k. Price is $3500 firm. Everything seems to be working fine.
What questions should I be asking right now?
The red charging light comes on at idle. Is this normal for this bike, of this era?
What are the pitfalls of a twin shock R65ls? Do they have certain parts that fail regularly? Can I expect to be able to just go ride the thing?
My other bikes are a Honda VFR700, a Bandit 1200, a Concours 1000, and a KLR250. All carbureted, all older technology, but all very good-handling bikes I can easily maintain myself and enjoy on twisty roads.
This R65LS seems like it will be more of a "standard" than anything else.
What should I be looking for? Yes, the paint is flawless but even if it's original, it won't stay that way. Seller has put less than a thousand miles on the bike in 7 years, but I ride the snot out of everything I own. It won't have pristine paint or anything else for long.
The only thing it needs right now are fork seals. I've done it on Japanese bikes and think it would be no big deal on this bike.
The calipers are bolt-on Brembo retro-fits but, like I said, squeal. No idea what to think about this. Seller is offering the original calipers as well, declaring that there are no rebuild kits available for them and that his attempts to clean and re-assemble didn't work.
How about the final drive and tranny? Can I expect good service from them?
Should the coils be red? I didn't pull the tank, but I can see the coils are made of red plastic. I actually do hope these are aftermarket because original coils and other ignition system components are kinda scary to take across state lines.
What should I be asking you folks right now? [smiley=dankk2.gif]
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Gonna try to post the link with the photos on it...spam-free is a good thing.
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Okey dokey, forum says two posts before links, so let's give this a try...
http://augusta.craigslist.org/mcy/4954854760.html
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That is a very nice, tidy looking bike you have there.
The “red” coils if it is a single plastic encapsulated double ended coil, is probably a Dyna coil – if so this is a good thing. OTOH, if you have two separate red coloured cylindrical coils, they could be any bloody thing, which isn’t a problem providing the resistance is correct for the ignition trigger.
Your bike probably left the factory with a Bosch hall effect triggering system (combined with mechanical advance retard), before giving advice on the “correctness” of the coils, we need to know how they are triggered, i.e. points, stock hall effect, Boyer Bransden and numerous other after-market triggering options are out there.
The charge light being on at idle is both normal and a “design feature”. If your red light does not come on at idle, chances are that the bulb has failed (which interestingly means no charging BTW) or that something dire has happened. The good news is that the charging system, whilst a little weak kneed at only 280 watts on the best day it ever had, is just about as reliable as a ball pein hammer.
Squealing brakes is unusual and worse may be the result of a number of causes. If the brakes feel like they are working OK, I’d be inclined to throw a new set of pads into them and see if that makes the noise go away. If it does not, then there is an investigation process to follow.
Like everything else on a BMW the final drive and transmission are designed to give long and relatively trouble free lives, but do bear in mind it is now a 30+ years old motorcycle. The big thing with final drives is wear on the drive splines, usually the result of inadequate or incorrect lubrication, there is polite conjecture here at the moment as to the best method and cost of fixing drive splines, the only real consensus is that it is not cheap. Seals wear out but are replaceable by an adventurous owner.
Gearboxes that have not been abused and which have not had water sneak past an old or improperly fitted speedo cable boot tend to last a long, long time – the more so as it is the same gearbox fitted to the R65 as was fitted to far more powerful siblings. The only known issue is with the spring that provides the detent “feel”, this is a known failure item and is unfortunately a labour intensive fix as removing the gearbox involves first removing the rear sub-frame and swing-arm. Replacing the gearbox bearings etc is not a job usually tackled by the home mechanic as it requires special tools and precision measuring instruments (along with the practiced skills to use them). That said, in the Facebook airheads forum a Norwegian fellow has just done his own gearbox up successfully (they have a long winter) using material gleaned from the web and the input of more experienced group members.
Fork seals are easily replaced, in fact after the experience of some of the Japanese bikes in your stable, they will be a breeze. At the risk of admitting something I am a little embarrassed over, if you decide to remove your damper rods – you take them out via the bottom of the forks – well you can take them out via the top but you will never put them back in with all piston rings intact from the top.
Things to look out for.
Check for any knocks, grinds etc in the crank or bottom end – problems here are bluntly a sure sign of abuse as given clean oil and not being thrashed the 247 bottom end should do at least 500,000km.
Valve gear noises should be investigated – mostly this will be ham handedness on the part of the owner, but there are some dire things that can happen.
Our beloved R65s for some reason are a little prone to dropping valves, my own view (not shared by some in this group) is to change exhaust valves at or before 50,000km (32,000miles). There are also some who suffer valve seat recession said to be the result of unleaded fuel. The thing is, not everybody has valve seat problems so I would definitely NOT spend money on replacement seats until and unless I found that I did have a problem.
Oil leaks – these are usually easily curable - lipped seals at front and back of engine rarely give trouble, but cylinder bases will leak if they are allowed to “fret” due to failure to maintain cylinder head bolt tension. Pushrod seals will leak eventually, but they usually last long enough for you to be doing a top end refresh anyway.
Exhaust systems the chances are pretty small that you will have an original exhaust system still fitted, if you do, start saving for its inevitable replacement. The “gold” standard replacement exhaust system is stainless steel. The Australian made “Staintune” is the standout best as they are a copy of the original equipment externally, with small modifications to make them more free flowing without becoming loud. Next best is the English Kehin (spelling?) and after that who knows.
Shock absorbers – the original Boges should be placed in a box for posterity and replaced – I like Ikon (the now Australian owned Koni shock absorbers)
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Shock absorbers – the original Boges should be placed in a box for posterity and replaced – I like Ikon (the now Australian owned Koni shock absorbers) others use Hagons, Wilbers, Fournales and a host of other brands. One brand I will comment on is the Spanish made Betor shock absorbers sold by Motobins (motobins.co.uk), The nicest comment is that out of the box they are betor than nothing, but not by much. However they are rebuildable by a home mechanic and use catalogue seals which means you can play with fluid weight and quantity. I have a friend who swears by them, I simply recall the time 30 years ago when I tried betor shocks and I swear at them. They are cheap though.
Cosmetics – many bits and pieces are no longer available new – dash boards, speedos, tacho etc. These parts do have some availability on the 2nd hand market but they are drying up as the population of R65s moves into the hands of long term owners and the available bits are snapped up.
On the subject of snapping thing up. I would like to buy your original ATE calipers if you are minded to sell them. Contrary to what you may have heard, they are in fact rebuildable, the only two parts needed are the internal seal and the dust seal. Given that rebuilding them inevitably means turning up a new set of pistons (the originals where chrome plated mild steel and they will be shot) the pistons are modified to use Brembo dust seals (which will actually fit anyway but you can make the process a little more “nice” by matching the Brembo dimensions). If you are interested drop me a PM and we can discuss price.
In conclusion, the R65 is an honest and pretty reliable thing, capable of extraordinary long, trouble free mileage that demands only a little periodic maintenance, combined with sympathetic treatment in the right hand department. They are extraordinarily well supported by various interest groups and forums on the web and there are numerous outlets that supply parts at competitive prices.
Enjoy
And welcome to the asylum.
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I appreciate the response. Very informative.
I can hear normal valve and pushrod noise at idle.
While riding, I could hear a bit more noise from what sounded like the top end, but it didn't sound..well, bad. It sounded like a clattery old motorcycle going through the gears.
Is the price about right? It really is all original and the paint is excellent. All the lights and buttons and things work. The sidestand is original as well (and terrifies me. Who the hell designed that leg trap?).
I'm not used to thinking about these bearings and seals and splines. My unit construction Japanese machines rarely fail.
I ride...uh...spiritedly. I don't like to over-rev the engine or do silly squid tricks but I like to take a fast pace on the twisty roads.
This bike pulled very well. I took it up to 4k rpm and I could tell it was coming alivel at that point.
So..the price is in line, considering the very good condition of the bike?
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What makes you think the brake calipers have been change. 82 R65 came from the factory with Brembo calipers.
Don
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What makes you think the brake calipers have been change. 82 R65 came from the factory with Brembo calipers.
Don
That's what I'm wondering. After I saw the bike, with working Brembos on it, and the ones that the seller showed me that were on it before, I did some research and saw that Brembos were standard all along.
Either way, I just want to be sure I can make the squealing stop. It sounds awful.
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First off, I believe $3500.00 to be a very top dollar price for a 1982 R65 of any model. Some 'sperts may tell you the LS model is a collectible... this being a sales technique and usually in the mind of the seller.
As noted by Cajun Don, the Brembo brakes are OEM on all 1982 model R65s. Run your fingernail across the brake discs -both of 'em- and check just how deep those grooves are worn. The design and location of the holes in the discs create this wear pattern since altered by BMW Motrrad. Many R65ers have had good performance from EBC organic brake pads. Avoid metallics as they accelerate disc wear. BTW, there are sources for Brembo rebuild kits if you go this route. A good Scotchbrite scrubbing with carb cleaner, including the inside of the holes, may help de-squeal the brakes. That and a light sanding of the disc pads.
Valve train noise, aka: BMW music, will decrease as the engine reaches full operating temps... which may take up to 20 miles or so. This is kinda one of those, "They all do that" deals.
NGK plug caps are my personal gold standard.
You will learn that the side stand is not the prefered method of parking an Airhead. Carb leaks are not uncommon if the petcock is left in the on position. Smoky starts can occur as oil may collect in the left side cylinder. Use that centerstand whenever possible.
Ask the seller when was the last date a clutch spline and final drive spline clean n' lube was completed. If there's a lengthy pause, ask what grease was used. Any stammering might bring the price down. Any drifting 'off-topic' from these questions may indicate the seller has either not done these vital services or does not even know what you're asking about.
Ask to see any written service records; either dealer or owner maintained. No paper? Sales price drop.
The bile looks quite nice and even has the tire pump! That OEM toolkit now sells for upwards of a couple C-notes.
If you like it, buy it. Parts are available and you have a fantastic, BMW model specific forum right here to assist with any questions and concerns. As we all are fond of saying, "If we don't know the answer, we'll make something up."
Keep us posted on your decision. Let's have some fun.
PS: On every motorcycle that I have ever purchased from a private seller, I use a cash talks technique. Whatever you feel is the price you'd be willing to pay for the bike, put that money in your pocket. When you get down to what my Grandpa called the lick log, lay that money on the seat. My experiences have been successful. However, I always carry a wee bit extra in the other pocket as a just in case I really, really want that mo'cycle.
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The first '82 model year LS bikes had ATE calipers on them, BMW used these remaining calipers from the '81 model year bikes on the first LS bikes off of the production line, then put Brembo calipers on .
To lessen the squeal from the brakes, there is a Permatex product called Disc Brake Quiet that you spray on the metal backside of the pads, it is a spray on blue material that when dry, is still a bit sticky, the pad kinda glues itself to the caliper piston, so it doesn't squeal .
http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/specialized-maintenance-repair/brake-maintenance-repair/permatex-disc-brake-quiet-80077-detail
Some members have had success with using a rattle can auto paint in the same manner .
On the only one cylinder firing on cold engine start, it seemed it was the early ignition modules under the fuel tank, it's the part with an aluminum heat sink .
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I'm just gonna stick my oar in, and show off what my R65 used to look like..
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8208/8185702534_329eff31d2_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/dtkSbj)
Of course, the relevant info is that I paid 3k USD, and the beemer had 9k miles on it... in 2006.
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Dang Matt, that's a beautiful full fairing on there. Never saw one like that.
Good info all around. The brakes ARE working front and rear, so the squealing is just something I now know I can work through. I've had to sand down pads and rotors before, but I had to ask around for this bike, what with parts availability and all.
I also think the price is primo, especially with 55k miles on it. This guy has lots of oddball and/or highly collectible motorcycles and is not desperate to sell. He's pretty firm on the price.
I may need to go see it once more, armed with a little more knowledge.
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The LS models do go for a premium over the base bike due to lower production numbers and yours looks to be in very nice shape.
It's good that the top-end noise doesn't bother you as it drove me nuts on the first one I bought. I was adjusting them probably once per week and I finally asked a dealer about it and he told me I was gonna wear it out adjusting on it. He told me it was never going to sound like a Jap bike and that "noisy valves were happy valves." I quit adjusting them...
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I think a standard R65 is a better value. you can get them for about $2500.
I would budget a carb rebuild , fork rebuild and if he doesn't have records for a spline lube it will need to be done also.
The Orings on the rear brake shaft well more than likely need replacing also at the same time lube the rear wheel splines.
If the brake fluid is dark the brake line could be starting to deteriorate
you may want to check the date codes on the tires unless you don't think old tires are an issue.
The forks will need the soft rubber cushions also they tend to crumble into little pieces
My R65 needed all these things plus others.
But it was worth it :D
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Where would one find a R65 or R65LS? I did a CL search nationwide and found none better than this one for any lower price. I think I'm correct to say the 81 and later had a bit more gumption but I have yet to verify this with good research.
There were two R65 within a 3-hour drive when I was first made aware of the model, both at the same price as this LS. One with all new final drive work.
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The 81-85 R65's had larger valves which boosted torque although inevitably at higher revs. As a result power went up from 45 to 50 HP. These are figures for the high compression European engines. I've never seen figures for the US low compression engines.
LS's are much rarer than standard R65's.
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I don't consider airhead engines to have noisy valves especially considering the heads are stuck out in the air and unlike most bikes the tank is not between you and the engine. You might notice one side being a little louder than the other while riding as the staggered cylinder arrangement means your knees shield one side more than the other.
If after checking valve clearances you still think the tappet noise is too loud check that the rockers have no significant end play. The end play clearance should be close to zero and if you can get a feeler gauge in there, it's too big. The usual visual test is that if you try to move the rocker longitudinally on it's shaft you should see the oil film move and no more. The other thing that impacts on valve noise is the contact width of the valve seat, so high mileage engines may seem noisier unless the heads have been refurbished.
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Just keep searching the classified ads in the area newspapers, Craigslist, Cycle Trader, etc....
They don't come up for sale too often, there were at best 7,000 brought into the US and Canada .
Last year was '86 or '87 and very few of the last generation ' monoshock bikes were brought into North America .
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You've got a lot of great info here. While $3500 is no bargain, it is the start of spring, and I wouldn't be too worried about the miles. The R65 can stack on miles like the rest of em... and at least you know this machine hasn't been sitting still for 15 years while everything dries up and corrodes in place. Plus, you can offset the cost by selling the ATE calipers. The peace of mind you get buying from somebody you know and trust can justify a few bucks on the price tag as well.
btw, if you keep shopping around '81 can be a bad year for the R65 as BMW used crappy materials in the valve seats.
While the LS does tend to cost a bit more, you do get the unique wheels. The front rim is wider, the rear drum is bigger, and I'm pretty sure they are both lighter and stronger. The wheels are much easier to clean, too, if you're into keeping things shiny. I also never get any high speed wobbles that some airhead folks talk about... maybe the "30% less lift" from the front fairing and the bigger contact patch actually do something?
Regardless, the best reason to get an LS is if you like the LS. Mine fell into my lap, but if I had to do it again I'd go for another. I like oddball, uncommon stuff. I like the styling (Hans Muth also designed the R90S and the Suzuki Katana), I like that the only other two I've seen have been at motorcycle shows, and I like that it seems to strike up friendly conversations with complete strangers. I'm willing to pay in that luggage is harder to fit and some of the LS parts are NLA.
P.S. Don't be to wind the engine out; they like to rev. It's gonna vibrate like you read about around 5K and then smooth out again. Makes for a smooth 75-80mph in 5th gear.
P.P.S. Mine cost $600 and had 5300 miles on it :D