The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: jamestnewsonr65 on January 20, 2015, 04:45:10 PM
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After leaving my bike for a while over the autumn/winter it seems to have developed the ability to not start.
I'm not too good with the electrical side of things, but everything worked when I was using the bike towards the end of the last summer. I have charged the battery twice in the last week and it just dies before starting. This is one obvious problem which needs changing.
Does anyone have any recommendations on battery types/preffered makes which have proved good in the past? The one in there at the moment is the wet type made in Korea or somewhere. It was the one installed in the bike when I bought it last April so don't know the history of it.
I also suspect that the coil may be on the way out as it has a large crack from end to end and with the wetter weather here in the UK I think this might be time to replace it. Again any suggestions / advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
When trying to start the bike the other day with the front cover off I noticed that there is a strong clicking noise (almost like a contact arcing) coming from the front when I switch the bike to the on position on the handlebar. Last time I ran the bike which was a dry day in oct it ran for a while then tried to start it again and the clicking noise was there which I think may have something to do with it now not running.
As I mentioned I'm not too good with the electrical side of things so any ideas or suggestions are welcome.
The forum has helped me so much in the past and really appreciate any help i've had.
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I think you have found your problem, the original OEM black and gray coil is notorious for the situation you have .
Don't know what's available you in your part of the world for replacement coils .
There is a second generation OEM coil from BMW, it's red and black, I installed one when my black and gray coil failed in 1994, but the new coil didn't last 10 years in my instance .
I then got a DYNA coil, just about a bulletproof part .
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1st. If your coil has a large crack in it - it MUST be replaced. There are a number of coils that can work. In the US many of us love the Dyna coils from Motorrad Elektrik, but shipping and duty into London may make it pricier than you care to deal with. It is a very good product, and smaller lighter than the original. If you get it, get one with the bracket kit to simplify mounting. Replace this and then see what happens. If symptoms don't change at all->
2. Your battery is kaput. Order a new one - if you are not going to treat it nicely by keeping it on a tender at all times when the bike is put up for more than a week or two at a go, then you may as well not spend alot of $$ on a high end battery like the Odyssey. There are a number of ones that work OK, and there are Gruber brand batteries here in the US that are quite economical (but again, shipping across the pond may make a local option to you a better choice). If you DO decide you want to spring for a nice AGM battery, lately I've become quite a fan of Motobatt batteries. I've got one on my Kawasaki Concours now, and it really cranks well. These AGM/gel batteries do require that you use the proper battery tender with them consistently, but they do last 5+ years in my experience.
http://www.motorcycleproducts.co.uk/battery-bmw-r65-ls-1981-1982-1983-motobatt-p-340484.html
The click-clik-clik-clicking you heard/hear is most likely the starter relay chattering - if you battery cannot put out enough current, the voltage drops, which causes the relay to shut off... This then allows the battery voltage to rise, and the relay clicks closed again, and the increased current draw exceeds what the bad battery can put again , and the voltage drops - cycle repeats over&over. It is a sure sign of a discharged battery or bad battery cable connection. If you've charged the battery for a couple days and it still does this, check to make sure your battery cables are not corroded and properly connected. If they are - time to order up a new battery!
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Read this thread
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1421793910
We talk about the coils
My Odyssey battery sat for 4 weeks in below freezing temps without a tender and she started just fine last Saturday
I thought that one of the benefits of an AGM battery was you don't need a tender for a month or 2 down time
It is normal for the coils to spark when you turn the key off so you may be hearing the spark leaking from the coil
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An newish AGM should retain over 90% of it's charge for a month or 2 and so still start the bike. My current battery is a hybrid AGM/Gel and it's a revelation at keeping it's charge compared to a wet cell. I don't have a permanently connected up battery tender and am not a fan of using them unless you are sure it's supplying a safe voltage for that particular battery. If it is then fine but it's easy to do more harm than good especially at higher temperatures unless the tender has built in temperature compensation. I prefer to check the voltage occasionally and charge the battery when needed.
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The coil needs replacing, if you phone Motobinns in Lincs they give you the sp on a good quality replacement, and can likely sell you a gel battery as well.
If coin is a bit tight just after Christmas then Motorworks in Huddersfield will do you a second hand replacement coil at a very reasonable price.
It also sounds like your battery is shot, although it could be just the weather, there is also a change that the weather just finished it off. So its probably worth while checking the output voltage of your charging system. its easy just pop a test (multimeter) meter on volts across the battery when you have the bike running at about 2,500 to 3000 rpm anything between 12 & 14 volts (ish) reading is good anything above or bellow and you have a charging circuit problem.
It would also be a good idea if your coil has gone to check your HT leads, caps and plugs, just incase.
Hope this helps
Tony
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Thanks for the replies. I will get on to motobins and see about getting a replacement coil for the bike. Shame the Dyno coils are available over here as I like the look of that.
I think the battery is probably dead as even after charging it dies fairly quickly. Leads, Caps and Plugs were all changed as part of the refurb so they should be fine.
Will let you know how I get on.
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You can get them in the UK but I suspect they will be more expensive than in the US. I seem to recall they also want to sell them in pairs at something like £130.
http://www.dynatekuk.com/accessories_dyna_coils.html
There are other options. Any dual output coil with approximately 1.5 ohms primary resistance should be OK. Suitable possibilities might be Yamaha XS650, Honda gold wing or Harley Davidson coils.
For example this one http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/HT75.html or this one http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/HT90.html would work even though the resistance is a little higher.
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Thanks for that info Barry and to everyone else.
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James, Scroll down 4-5 topics here in the Tech Q&A to "Bike Died". More info on your coil issue.
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. Any dual output coil with approximately 1.5 ohms primary resistance should be OK. Suitable possibilities might be Yamaha XS650, Honda gold wing or Harley Davidson coils.
Can i put my plug in for Mercury outboard coils. The beauty of outboard coils is that you can take to the bank that issues of water and corrosion resistance have been well addressed. The big thing was (that at least in Australia) they are surprisingly cheap.
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I have had a Panasonic LC-X1220P in my '79 R65 for several years. It stuffs into the battery holder, no need for tie downs and no acid on the paintwork. An excellent AGM battery with plenty of reserve.
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Logical question...what's the voltage reading on the battery?
Esp after you try to start it once or twice.
Does it quickly fall under 12.2 volts?
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This Panasonic battery was installed circa late 2007 to early 2008...
Ambient air temperature: 73F - 23C
Bike equipped with Valeo starter motor.
Battery at rest for five days since previous 25 mile ride: 12.65 Volts resting voltage.
Normal start from cold, run for two minutes, stop engine: 12.54 Volts
Remove plug wires, crank for 10 seconds: 12.45 Volts
Wait a minute,
Plug wires still off, crank for 15 seconds: 12.39 Volts
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.55 Volts
Plug wires off, crank 15 seconds: 12.39 Volts
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.51 Volts
Replace plug wires, bike starts immediately, run one minute, stop engine.
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.52 Volts
End of test-
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After reading your latest post, there's something you may wish to consider.
You stated:
"Remove plug wires, crank for 10 seconds: 12.45 Volts
Wait a minute,
Plug wires still off, crank for 15 seconds: 12.39 Volts"
There is a distinct possibility that ignition system components can be seriously damaged and/or ruined if the ignition is on and the starter is engaged while the spark plug caps are removed and left ungrounded.
Best procedure is to remove the spark plug leads, the spark plugs, reattach the spark plugs to the leads and ground the plugs to the cylinder using a clamping system that will insure positive contact and grounding.
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This Panasonic battery was installed circa late 2007 to early 2008...
Ambient air temperature:73F-23C
Bike equipped with Valeo starter motor.
Battery at rest for five days since previous 25 mile ride: 12.65 Volts resting voltage.
Normal start from cold, run for two minutes, stop engine: 12.54 Volts
Remove plug wires, crank for 10 seconds: 12.45 Volts
Wait a minute,
Plug wires still off, crank for 15 seconds: 12.39 Volts
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.55 Volts
Plug wires off, crank 15 seconds: 12.39 Volts
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.51 Volts
Replace plug wires, bike starts immediately, run one minute, stop engine.
Wait five minutes, battery recovers to 12.52 Volts
End of test-
That's a very impressive performance from the battery especially given it's age.
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Thank you Monte, My bike has the older all electric ignition system. The only semi-conductors are on the diode board. A few seconds with the ignition on and plug wires off appears to produce no deleterious effects. After writing yesterday I rode ten miles. This morning the battery is resting at 12.79 volts.
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I have points ignition. I still avoid open circuiting the ignition coils although I did do it once accidentally. Hopefully no damage was done and the the reduced voltage during cranking probably helps in that respect. The concern is that even if damage isn't immediately obvious it's possible some latent damage to the insulation occurs.
Normally the ignition coil only has to produce enough voltage to jump the spark gap but with the plugs disconnected the voltage will rise to the maximum that the coil is capable of which may break down the internal insulation on old coils. Fortunately the points coils will only produce something like 14kV which is not a particularly high voltage compared to the electronic ignition coils which are more like 20kV.
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Ive now got one of the dyna coils 1.5ohms, but cant try it out yet as I wont be around the bike for a few weeks. I will let you all know how I get on and see if this resolved the problems.
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Where did you get the DYNA coil from locally ??
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I got it from a uk supplier http://www.dynatekuk.com was a bit more than some of the others posted in this thread, but I prefer the look of this over the others.
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OUCH !! That is a bit more costly than here in the ' colonies ' !!!! :o
I doubt you ever have an issue with it, unless it is physically damaged .
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Dyna coils are stupidly expensive in the UK otherwise I might have bought one. I'm always on the look out for dual out put coils at a more reasonable price and came across these which can be imported into the UK for £44 http://www.jpcycles.com/motorcycle-ignition-coils/andrews
They seem to be aimed at the HD crowd but either version would be a suitable replacement on a points ignition. Are Andrews coils well thought of in the US ?
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I have never heard of Andrews coils before .
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Andrews coils seem to be available in a number of US retail outlets for HD parts. There is also another identical looking coil called Andover LLC.
I've just found a similar coil in UK HD parts outlet for £32
http://www.harleyparts.co.uk/ignition-24-c.asp
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In looking for a replacement coil, what are the specifics that need to be followed? 12v, 1.5 ohms, etc.?
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A dual output 12volt coil should be approx. 1.5 ohms for an electronic ignition and approx. 3 ohms for a points ignition.
For electronic ignition the 1.5 ohms will have been chosen to limit the maximum current to a level that the ICU module can handle reliably without overheating which is presumably 8 amps.
For points ignition the 3 ohms is chosen to limit the maximum current to what the points can switch reliably which is usually said to be 4 amps.
Modern electronic ignition coils used on the last of the airheads are more like 0.5 ohms which implies 24 amps but in practice the current and dwell are limited in a sophisticated way by the ignition control module.
The reason for progressively increasing ignition coil current over the years is because spark energy is proportional to the current squared. So if all other things are equal doubling the current increases spark energy 4 fold. Actually all other things are not quite equal but you get the idea why the focus on increasing current through the ignition coil.
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Thanks Barry. Good information to file away for the day I am forced to replace the coil on my R65. Still running a "crack-o-matic" that hasn't cracked....yet!
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After getting out to work on the bike today I trial fitted the coil and noticed that I need to fabricate a bracket for it to mount on to. I have yet to get a new battery, but thought I would see if it started anyway. I couldn't get it started, but the battery turned it over just not enough to catch and fire up. Nearly, but not quite.
Im going to order a new battery and some new HT leads too as when I took the old ones off, the right side connection was very dull and almost corroded as was the connection chamber in the old coil. (This was on the side of the crack). See pic below of the difference in lead connections.
I also noticed that the crack in the old coil had got worse and this must have been the death of it.
The dyna coil is a very neat solution as a replacement on these bikes and fits well. Seems like a solid bit of kit.
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I thought buying some replacement ignition leads would be easy, seems that is a bit of a minefield also. Does anyone have any recommendations on what / where to buy from in the UK.
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I thought buying some replacement ignition leads would be easy, seems that is a bit of a minefield also. Does anyone have any recommendations on what / where to buy from in the UK.
I would buy old fashioned solid copper core ignition lead and NGK sparkplug caps.
If you can't get them locally this place has both the leads and the NGK LB05F caps http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/category/13
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Thanks for that Barry, do you know what type of HT cable would be best? Not sure what the spec needed is.
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Main thing is you don't want the suppressed cable with the resistive core. Plain 7mm with a copper core either PVC sheathed or silicon sheathed would be fine, whichever you prefer. The caps will screw on one end but you will need new brass terminals on the coil ends or solder on the ones from the old cables.
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...you will need new brass terminals on the coil ends or solder on the ones from the old cables.
Years ago, when I replaced the Bosch Crack-O-Matic on one of my R65s, I also deleted the old spark plug wires and caps. New wires and NGK caps were sourced from MikesXS, a Florida-based vendor that specializes in bits for the Japanese Triumph, aka Yamaha XS650. https://www.mikesxs.net/ Lots of Airhead friendly goodies available for your wiring needs, etc.
The plug wires brass, soldered-on fittings that insert into the new coil were in sad condition so I checked in at the local FLAPS for replacements. Counter clerks looked at me as if I was from the last century... which I actually am. Anyway, It was a seasoned auto parts gentleman that said, "I think we've got some of these in the back."
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Thank you so much everyone for the comments, tips and advice.
I fitted the new AGM battery (Much smaller than the original) today along with a test of the new HT leads and coil, and it started 1st time. Fired right up.
This forum is invaluable for people like me who have limited technical knowledge, but wiling to try and fix them. I've learnt how to make up HT leads and a bit more about the bike in the process.
Just need to make a bracket for the coil to be mounted to now and i'm done.
Thanks again.
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Many of us here in the USofA buy our Dyna coils from Rick Jones' Motorrad Elektrik. http://www.motoelekt.com/ They come with a nice aluminum mounting bracket and the needed hardware. The bracket has an L-shaped flange that bolts to the OEM coil mount. The photo explains the rest. Don't cheap out on a thin piece of bent metal; the vertical up n' down motion of the bike might crack something thin.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520Ignition%2FP3190004.jpg&hash=a548afaa4e18926015b3cf5319505371db82e27c) (http://s196.photobucket.com/user/montmil/media/BMW%20Ignition/P3190004.jpg.html)