The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Bob_Roller on April 19, 2014, 07:22:49 PM
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Left work at 1430 today, got two blocks from work, stopped fora stop sign, let the clutch out and the engine quit and would not start .
Got it off the road, checked for ignition, no spark at all !!
Waiting for the towing company to pick up the bike and myself .
The towing company messed up and called my home phone number instead of the number I gave them, so they didn't show up at work when they said they would .
Called them back and I was told it would be 90-120 minutes before they could get to me .
Great start to a weekend !!
At least it happened close to work, not out on the expressway !!!!
I guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow !!!!
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I'm sure you're referring to the guzzi in your stable. No way the R65 would do that to you :D
Have fun tracking down the source!
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It's the '81 R65, coming up on 34 years old, something was bound to break, it's over due !!!!!
Towing company called back and will be here in 40 minutes, at least some progress anyways .
5 hours after my first call, I'm finally home !!!
Did some quick troubleshooting when I got home, I get a spark when I move the 'KILL ' switch from on to off, so it looks like the ' bean can ' is the suspect now .
Luckily, I have a spare ' bean can ' in the boxes o' parts from my '84 LS .
I'll plug the spare into the connector, spin it and see if I get any sparks .
Nice to have spare parts to throw at a problem, without spending money needlessly .
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sorry to hear that. My bike was friendlier. she began to run wild at high RPM like there was something caught in the main jet. And when I parked her in the garage, she stopped working on a sudden. Hall sensor dead. Lucky me.
If you have to change the Hall sensor, go for the Siemens. It is far easier to rivet. (open the tube with a conical pin, then rivet it using a light hammer )
And last but not least triple check the wiring into the bean can ! If it is too loose, it will get caught in the steel vane and properly cut... Don't ask why I know this...
If you need to replace the wiring altogether and find a new male plug, I've a source in Germany. (the cable strain relief on the bean can can be reused provided you keep the outer isolation 2 mm each side of it and insert the new cables into it. )
Have a nice week end....
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I've got a few Hhoneywell 2AV54 sensors, I got about 5 years ago .
They have solid rivets, I've got access to a ' rivet squeezer ' at work, a hydraulic ' C ' clamp type tool that squeezes the rivet to produce the ' bucktail ', or flattened part of the rivet .
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Bob, I know you'll check all related wiring and terminals first.
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Also bear in mind that if both plate are riveted, you CANNOT remove the riveting and put the plates back in place without destroying them.
So you have to drill a hole in the lower plate to gain access to the Hall sensor rivets...
I own both can, the one with a screwed plate and a one with riveted plate. I _do_ prefer the former easier to work with.
Also, you can test the bean can with the led and resistor (and a 9V battery) using the schematics on the web. if you use tiny crocodiles plugs you do not need to buy a male AMP socket. I've made such tool and it is very useful to test the device and set the static timing when putting things back in place... a couple € well spent.
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Got to do some troubleshooting on the bike today .
Plugged the spare beancan that I have into the connector, turned the key on spun the drive end of the bean can and got sparks, great, simple fix !!!!
I figured, I'm this far, I'll just repalce it now and be done with it .
So I removed the original beancan .
Just for curiosity sake, I plugged the original bean can back into the connector spun it with the key on and got sparks !!!!!!!!!!! :o
Didn't make sense to me at first .
So I turned the key on and hit the starter button, the camshaft isn't turning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-X
It all starting to come together in my head, what happened, the engine quit, I hit the start button and all I got was a clunk out of the starter, sounded like the battery was bad .
Pushed the bike off the side of the road, tried the starter again and it started working, but didn't ' sound ' right .
So now my ignition problem has taken an ominous turn today !!!!!!!!!!!
Put everything back together and may get to it in the next week or so .
The timing chain was replaced at 45,000 miles, the bike has 88,000 on it now .
I wonder if the cam tensioner failed and the chain came off a sprocket .
I guess anything is possible, until you get in there see what really happened .
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Certainly hope the cam chain has not "jumped a tooth".
Might you pull the spark plugs and watch the piston crown and valves as you slowly rotate the engine by hand? Hope you do not see any sign of valve/piston contact.
My first ever cam chain replacement was a nail biter. I did not mark the crankshaft gear tooth and, as you know, the bearing hides the tiny index mark. Thought I had it positioned at exactly 6 o'clock.
I completed the chain refit, then very slowly hand-rotated the engine, and... bonk. I felt contact and peeked down the sparkplug hole to see a valve touching the piston. Sure glad I had not buttoned everything up and hit the "Engine Destruct Button"!
One tooth was all it would take...
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I tried looking into the sparkplug hole, the piston moves, but the valves don't move at all, so I can't tell if there was major contact between the piston and valves .
There must have been some contact, that's why the starter just clunked when I tried to start it before moving the bike off of the road to a safer area .
I'm going to remove the exhaust and intake and see what is visible there, exhaust has to come off anyway to get to the timing chain area .
With the exhaust and intake removed, I'm only 6 nuts away from removing the cylinder head, I think it would be wise to get a good look at the piston head and if necessary, remove the valves for inspection .
The pushrod seals needed replacing anyway, so the work I planned for my vacation on the bike, looks like may be done now, instead of October .
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As the cam chain is driven by the crank shaft and you see no valve movement, I'd be investigating a possible broken cam chain. No valve movement means the cam is not rotating.
One other caffeine-fueled thought- I wonder if there would be enough slack in the cam chain for the chain to fall free from the cam gear if, and that's a big IF, the tensioner and totally failed?
Time to pull the timing chest cover. Hopefully, Bob, it's something less than initially feared. Luck to you.
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I don't think the tensioners would allow the chain to fall clear off the sprocket. On the earlier duplex chains with spring tensioners I know that if you have a one piece chain you need to put it on with the sprockets... and an old chain won't come off with the tensioner removed.
If the replacement timing chain was a master link style though, maybe the fish clip bit the dust and let the master link move around. Guess we'll have to see what Bob finds.
Depending on what's broken, Bob, you might also want to plan to pull the oil pan and go fishing for bits o' engine. At 88K it could probably use a de-sludging anyways.
Hopefully it's nothing too bad; just a couple bent valves or the like. Already sounds like it could have been much, much worse.
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R65s never had duplex chains.
My R100s has the 'endless' duplex and I helped the PO install a new chain with the sprockets engaged. Royal PITA so hoping I don't have to go there again... ever.
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I do know we've all got the simplex chains, I just haven't had my hands on one. What I should have said was if an endless simplex chain was anything like a duplex and also needed to be installed with the sprockets then a total tensioner failure shouldn't let the chain just slip off.
The master link duplex chains with two, very tiny, easy to lose, odd sized E-clips are not so bad to work with, but it is tedious and slow going when it comes time to get the link installed.
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This could have been a whole lot different, if it had happened about a minute later when I would have been doing 65 mph !!!!
Stopped off at Harbor Freight Tools on Monday, I have a store about 2 miles away, picked up a valve spring compressor, with their 25% off coupon got it for $7 .
Never had a need for one until now .
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Feel for ya buddy, wish I could be there to help you tear it down.
Keep us all informed.
Rev Light
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I am interested to know the underlying cause. for what it is worth I am more inclined to think things like a broken key on a sprocket or a broken camshaft than a chain failure. Bizarre as it may seem the chain is grossly over-engineered for the job it does (the original duplex chain even more so) and I think that the key ways are a weaker link.
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If there's even a tiny little upside to this event, it's that the Gates of Hell are just barely cracking open in the Phoenix area. Could be worse...
[smiley=furious3.gif] Summer Oven!
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That's the other factor in this, the 'hot' season is just starting, predicted to start approaching the 100 F, 38 C range this week .
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I have three valve spring compressors. None work on my R65, I just couldn't fit them into place. I don't think they work on my Triumph, either.
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Removing the valves is easy using a rag into the combustion chamber, head on the bench. Put a tube wrench on the valve large enough to let the valve stem and lock pass into the opening.
Press the wrench on the valve spring and put a fast hammer on the wrench. Not large force, just fast. This will compress the spring enough to liberate the two stops which will become loose in the tube wrench and you're done.
Putting them back is more difficult without a valve compressor but can be done... Of course, you'd better reserve this to a repair in the middle of nowhere and preferably in a sand desert ...... Much more fun ...
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I'm with Georges. In the absence of the correct tool using some ingenuity will usually get the job done. I've used a small drill press to push down on the upper spring plate while supporting the valve head underneath with a suitable piece of wood.
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I've got an arbor press and large C clamps, I can get an oxygen sensor socket, it's got a large slot cut in the side for the sensor wire, I think that will work if the spring compressor won't fit .
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The furnaces of hell have finally relented here in the Phoenix area !!!!! ;D
Went to work on the bike this morning .
The cam chain is the failed part .
Can't tell what went wrong, the chain is in three pieces .
The master link has a sheared pin, at the groove for the spring clip .
I'll have to remove the oil pan, can't find the spring clip for the master link in the timing chain area .
I pulled the heads and I cannot see anything visible for contact area on either piston .
There's a bit of combustion deposit on the right cylinder intake valve that looks like it was disturbed, but I can do the same thing with my finger nail on the other valve .
Valve compressor won't work, not enough room to get it on the spring properly .
Put the push rods against a straight edge couldn't find any distortion on any of them .
I'm thinking about replacing all of the seals, gaskets that I disturbed and putting it back together again .
It doesn't appear that any damage was done when the chain failed .
Any thoughts or comments on this ????
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With head off, it is easy to pour some gas or something into the head to check for valve leaking. I would pull the oil pan and be worried until I found all the missing pieces. If the valves don't leak, I would reseal, new chain and try it. I am not an expert and have mistakes in the past.
Bob
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I poured paint thinner into the intake and exhaust port areas, no leakage found after 3 hours .
The only part I can't find, is the spring clip, there is a hole for oil to drain back into the sump, right under the area where the chain was doubled over on itself on the right side by a rub block .
I'll order parts today .
Held off on the parts, until I had an idea what happened and how bad it was .
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All parts ordered from Motobins at 1300 local time November 05 .
Lets see how long it takes for them to travel from the UK, to Phoenix !!!
It looks like I saved around $200US, over ordering the parts from the local BMW dealer .
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Received an email from Moto-Bins at 354 AM Phoenix time, 1054 AM UK time, that my order has been filled and shipped via Royal Mail .
All of the parts were in stock .
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My guess would be you will have the bits in about a week best of luck with the rebuild.
Lou
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At this point in time, doesn't appear that this will take too much time .
I'm guessing 6-8 hours for reassembly, unless some unknown issue arises .
I don't mind being out in the garage now, only getting to 87 F, 31 C now in the afternoon .
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The only part I can't find, is the spring clip, there is a hole for oil to drain back into the sump, right under the area where the chain was doubled over on itself on the right side by a rub block.
I also had that "little fish" jump down the honey hole during a cam chain replacement on the '81 R65. Used an extension magnet thingy which must have been the correct bait as I caught it. I don't think they can swim too far in that sump oil.
From that point on, I jammed paper toweling into every orifice.
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I've got a small ' magnet on a stick ' at work, going in tomorrow to get it, currently on vacation, finishing up week three of six .
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The parts are now in Los Angeles, being processed by the US Postal Service .
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Parts showed up at 1515 today .
I'll get started on reassembling tomorrow .
Weather is cooperating, 72 F, 22 C , this afternoon .
A neighbor was present, when I opened the package up and made the comment on the rubber tubes that go between the carb and head and the intake tube to air box, he said next time, just get a radiator hose the correct I D size and make your own .
never thought of that before .
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...just get a radiator hose the correct I D size and make your own .never thought of that before .
It's a nice idea but I wonder if the type of rubber would stand up to modern fuel.
Worth a try.
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...just get a radiator hose the correct I D size and make your own .never thought of that before .
It's a nice idea but I wonder if the type of rubber would stand up to modern fuel.
Worth a try.
It would work in a pinch but it may get soft and swell up
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...just get a radiator hose the correct I D size and make your own .never thought of that before .
It's a nice idea but I wonder if the type of rubber would stand up to modern fuel.
Worth a try.
It would work in a pinch but it may get soft and swell up
If the ones fitted to the wife's r80 start doing that I'll let you know. Had my money's worth though, been there since 1987.
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During an "Airhead" Volkswagen engine rebuild, I stopped in at NAPA and bought large diameter, reinforced rubber hose that connects the carb manifold to the aluminum intake assembly on the cylinder heads. Actually did that on both the VDub engines I built. Never a problem and more economical than OEM bits.
As the fuel, be it mogas -or in my case, avgas, is atomized as it moves through the intake tract, there is very little chance of 'soaking' the rubber hose and causing any distortion or deterioration.
That said, I did buy OEM BMW connector hoses for one of the BMW Airheads. Neatly cutting that large diameter hose is a PITA. I ended up using a fine toothed blade in a bandsaw.
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The rubber tubes that I got from Moto-bins, are not OEM parts, the OEM part is thick with multiple layers of fabric, these look like they are cut from radiator hose material thin and one layer of fabric .
But they do have Conti on them, I assume Continental was the manufacturer .
There is a part number on these parts and they are BMW numbers, they come up in the parts catalog, so BMW has changed this part from what it has been since I got this bike .
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I have just read this thread as LRB is at that same age now that these breakdowns can happen to him while on one of my extended journeys. I want to learn as much as possible about what things can go wrong that brings one to a complete halt at the side of the road. This one was a biggy and a show stopper. Some are easy fixes; some are not :'(obviously. The philosophy I need to grasp in a case like this on the road far from home would be I guess :-?..."I get to meet some new people and maybe they'll become lifelong friends".
Another thought comes to mind too: Maybe having a IPad or superphone on board would be good because I could contact you all on the forum when on the road! That is a comforting thought! :)
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Sue, if you not a member of BMWMOA, or Airheads, you may want to look into them, the BMWMOA has a book that comes out every year that has a list of members that are willing to assist a rider broke down in their area .
At least in the western part of the US, there are large areas that do not have mobile phone service outside of heavily travelled roads .
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Got the bike 95% reassembled yesterday, messed up my lower back in the process, took today off, I should finish it up and start the engine tomorrow afternoon .
I tried my method, of using an old master link installed from the front side to get the chain lined up, then putting the new master link in from the back side, had the link installed and the retainer clip on in about 2 minutes .
If you lay down in front of the engine it makes getting the timing marks lined up quite easily, very visible this way .
I also found a suitable substitute for a piston ring compressor, I forgot that the ring compressor I had, wouldn't work on this type of engine .
I found a coupling for drain pipes at a local home improvement store, it's a very fine corrugated sheet metal band with two worm gear hose clamps riveted to it .
If I can get a picture to post, I'll get one up, but I'm having issues with photos .
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I found a coupling for drain pipes at a local home improvement store, it's a very fine corrugated sheet metal band with two worm gear hose clamps riveted to it.
Timely info, Bob.
I'll soon be replacing the original rings in my '81 R65 so I'll pick up the Big Box Beemer Ring Compressor before I begin. After doing a pushrod tube seal job on the bike, the scars on my fingers are a reminder of the difficulty in compressing those buggers by hand.
And yes, I should have done the rings, "while I was in there."
Any ideas on cleaning the ring lands? Some hard carbon build up in the lands will need to be carefully removed.
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Bob, is that the plumbing device that would use a length of rubber hose inside the metal for sealing leaks?
Neither do I like bleeding all over my rings and pistons. I can't remember what compressor I bought but it worked. One that comes apart so you can fit it around the rod.
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Any ideas on cleaning the ring lands? Some hard carbon build up in the lands will need to be carefully removed.
A hand cleaning product called "Simple Green" worked for me - just lather it all over the carbon encrusted bit of the pistons, put in a sealed baggie over night and the next day rinse off under hot water. What carbon remains is easily removed using plastic paint scrapers/glue applicators.
The other alternative is to soda blast them as the baking soda will not harm alloy, but takes the carbon straight off. Simple green is less fussing about and you do not get wife/neighbours complaining about the white dust that get is everywhere.
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I have used this kind of ring compressor on engines that load from the top and they work great.
I think it would work well on bottom loaders.
When you squeeze it down it locks tight and it is thick enough it wont slide down between the cylinder and piston as you push it in.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FNTAwWDUwMA%3D%3D%2Fz%2FSWkAAOSwQItUGI9J%2F%24_1.JPG&hash=c5f49a9e936cfa0dc9a476355fd7b62af32e267d)
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Ed, the whole assembly has a rubber part that slips onto each end of I guess PVC drain pipe and the corrugated metal wraps over the rubber part of the coupling when you tighten the worm gear clamps .
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Got every thing back together today and started the engine up .
Only made two mistakes in the reassembly process, I found one of the paper gasket washers that go on the timing cover, it was stuck to the right frame tube, came off and I didn't notice it until today .
The starter also didn't work when I tried to run the engine, during removal of the timing cover, I also pulled the wire off of the starter solenoid terminal, didn't catch it during reassembly .
The other issue I had, was back 7 years ago, when I replaced the clutch and plates, I got the flywheel on one bolt hole off, so I can't check the ignition timing, I put a scribe mark on the bean can and engine case before I removed the bean can, engine runs fine .
But I have a real main seal leaking, need to go in here again to replace the seal, so I will correct my foul up then .
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Bob, is that the plumbing device that would use a length of rubber hose inside the metal for sealing leaks?
Not Bob, but I bought the plumbing part Bob described. Yes, it has a rubber sleeve inside that can be tossed. If you back out the worm-drive screws all the way, you can slip the metal sleeve over the rod and onto the piston rings.
I paid about six bucks and it's less than the big box o' BandAids I bought.
Tony sez,
"A hand cleaning product called "Simple Green" worked for me - just lather it all over the carbon encrusted bit of the pistons, put in a sealed baggie over night and the next day rinse off under hot water. What carbon remains is easily removed using plastic paint scrapers/glue applicators."
Love me some Simple Green and use it for serious engine cleaning. I thought I'd put the Simple Green in a small pan and place the pistons inverted so that the ring lands are submerged. Ought to work. Thanks, Mister T.
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Here's photo of my ring compressor - a relic of my days spent playing with VWs. What I like about it is that the "ribbed" nature of the compression band means that once nicely oiled up the compressor will slide easily down the piston as the piston feeds into the cylinder.