The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Ed Miller on June 24, 2014, 04:22:28 PM
-
I was riding my R65 to work Friday morning, and upon going over a bumpy railroad crossing something started rattling. It sounded to my panicking ears like a nut bouncing around in the motor somewhere. It seemed to be related to the engine, as I came to a stop with the motor running and it continued. So: not driveline, anyway. I don't remember if pulling in the clutch made any difference, though I suspect not or I would have noticed it.
Then it stopped, and was intermittent, then stopped and I made it the rest of the way to work. It was not rattling when I got to work. I rode the bus home and drove my pickup to work Monday and took it home.
I checked the valves to see if anything had happened in there, and while the exhaust clearances had closed up a little bit in the past few thousand miles nothing looked out of place.
My intention is to next change my timing chain, as I have the parts and the bike has 97,000 miles on it. Original chain. I checked the timing when I got it home and the mark does bounce around maybe 1/4", but I don't know if that is the same as the double image Snowbum mentions. But on the way I'll be searching for any marks or clues that something has come loose and taken a ride through the area before coming to a rest.
Any other suggestions if I can't find anything out of ordinary in the timing chest?
-
Have you started it since you got it home and confirmed the rattle is still there? Seems you could better assess the noise in the calm confines of the garage vs the side of the road.
Did the rattle vary with rpm? Any difference in the feel of the bike/engine?
-
The fact that it is intermittent makes me suspect that you have a problem with your cam chain tensioner. It is not a big job to pull the front cover off, if you do not own a heat gun, borrow your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/partner's hair dryer and use that I have on one occasion simply poured boiling water over the front case and that was sufficient to free it, but if you do that, leave the alternator rotor and bean can in place as you do not want water int he sump.
By the way, if you do take the font cover off to check the tensioner, unless you KNOW when the chain was last replaced and it has a reasonable life expectancy left, I would go ahead and change it anyway, likewise the guides if they show the slightest wear.
-
Have you started it since you got it home and confirmed the rattle is still there? Seems you could better assess the noise in the calm confines of the garage vs the side of the road.
Did the rattle vary with rpm? Any difference in the feel of the bike/engine?
Yeah, I rode the bike up a ramp to load it in my pickup. OK that doesn't sound right. I rode it up a ramp onto a truck loading dock with a power ramp which a guy lowered onto my pickup. I just rolled the bike down the ramp into my pickup.
Anyway, it did not rattle either when riding the bike to load it, nor last night when I was checking the timing. The sound has disappeared for now.
I thought it was varying with rpms, yes. As for the feel of the engine, I'm like a hypochondriac. I thought it felt different but can't put my finger on how, nor do I really trust that feeling.
-
A timing light should give some indication of worn timing gear.
Might as well have a look in the oil pan too given your suspicions.
-
Yes, I'd drain the oil, and get a new pan gasket and drop the pan.. maybe the oil strainer screen from the oil pickup came off somehow? Look for metal bits in the pan/oil, too.
The last time something like this happened to me after going over a big bump, I thought I busted something in the swingarm - turned out to be the nuts that were holding the rear fender onto the subframe had come off! That was a welcome, easy fix!
-
turned out to be the nuts that were holding the rear fender onto the subframe had come off!
that reminds me of a buzz-rattling license plate I once had. Had a kawasaki gas tank that was a bit loose make some horrendous noise too.
One other thing I could think of is that you maybe busted an exhaust hanger... or have a baffle rattling around in the muffler.
-
I'd look the bike over real good, it may be something like an exhaust sytem, center stand, etc .... loose .
-
thanks I always assume the worst I hope that you guys are right
-
I've got something loose inside the left muffler, it will rattle every once in a while, first time it happrned I was quite concerned .
Loose, or broken pivot bolts, missing springs on the center stand are another possibility .
-
I was scared when pulling into a gas station and hearing an awful noise. Fortunately, I was able to kill the engine and hear the noise continue. A road crew was gadding nearby.
I also had a tinny sounding rattle from the left rear while riding around my yard. I immediately stopped and put the bike on concrete to start work. When the left saddle bag was set on the pavement it rattled. It was my coffee pot still in the bag.
I hope you have as simple a solution.
Bob
-
I've got something loose inside the left muffler, it will rattle every once in a while, first time it happrned I was quite concerned .
Loose, or broken pivot bolts, missing springs on the center stand are another possibility .
It looks like I'll have to drop my exhaust system to get the timing cover off, so I'll go ahead and remove the mufflers and give them a shake.
-
Cousin Ed,
Pull the mufflers and give 'em a good shakin'. You might get lucky there.
When I did the timing chain replacement on my '81 R65, the x-over pipes were well bonded to the headers. After removing the header nuts and all clamps, the entire system laid down below the bike. It is a simple chore to rock the bike up on one leg of the centerstand and slide the pipes clear of the bike. An assistant is quite helpful.
Check the Photo Gallery for my photo essay on the timing chain replacement. TIP: Bring the cam sprocket's timing mark - a large dimple- to the 12 o'clock position. Mark the cranshaft's 6 o'clock sprocket tooth with white paint. Do this before removing any parts. How come? Glad you asked...
The crank sprocket has a scribed timing mark but you can't see it! Sneaky Motorrad chaps.
-
Jerks. The marks on my Triumph timing gears were easy enough to see.
I don't need to completely remove the exhaust, just lower it a few inches. Removing the stator really took me a long time. It wouldn't pull free, and felt like it was hanging up on something. I kept reading manuals, looking for pics, and stuff, then going back to it. Finally I just tugged it off and didn't break anything. The rotor was easy.
I'll renew my efforts on Sunday, even if I have to shorten my firewood cutting session. Thanks for the heads-up on your photo gallery.
Edit: wow your timing chest area is way cleaner than mine. I mean the charging area, I guess. I have all sorts of crud in there to wash off. I need to double check that area to see if anything self destructed, as it seems there's a lot of particles.
-
Yea, Ed. Clean it is. I had time to "rub n' buff" after I roasted a diode board by allowing one of the mechanics at the school district's garage to hook up jumper cables for me. Who knew? Red is positive. Black ain't. Magic smoke poofed outta the engine cover's vents.
[smiley=wall.gif]
-
Mine's clean now, too, though still not as clean as yours. I tucked everything back together yesterday, but I suspect I wasted all that time. My old timing chain, tensioner, and guide all looked nearly like new, at 97,000 miles. That's probably what happens when you spend almost no time idling in traffic -- plenty of oil moving through there. I saw nothing that could explain the rattling sound. The mufflers pled innocent.
I did notice that my neutral switch has started leaking but I don't think that's related. I need to find a plug that will fit there, as I don't use the switch except to stop oil from running out that hole.
I'm waiting for the Beemershop to call me back so I can order an oil pan gasket and some other stuff.
When I started the bike up to make sure the timing was still good, it sounded fine. My timing mark still jumps around a bit at higher rpms. I wonder if I have some play in my bean can or something. I'm tempted to just ride the thing until the rattling starts again and try harder to isolate it, but I fear doing $$$$$ damage.
-
Sprocket wear will cause jumpy timing marks even with a new chain and tensioner. Still wouldn't hurt to take the pan off and have a look from underneath. Maybe go back to the valve covers and have a real close look at the valve springs. I think somebody here a while back had a spring break.
Otherwise I'd just start laying a hand on everything that could get loose and rattle... Gas tank and fenders, tank cap, license plate, starter cover, electrics under the tank, side covers if you got them... maybe the airbox. Motor mounts would be worth a check... probably shake like the dickens though if they were loose.
-
I think somebody here a while back had a spring break.
That would be me.. it didn't really rattle though, the performance just sucked. I think it broke due to stress from landing on the left head cover during the process of binning it.
-
Just an update: yesterday I dropped the oil pan and found nothing interesting. I looked up and saw no signs anything had been bouncing around inside the motor. I drained the gearbox oil and removed the leaking-anyway neutral switch, and found nothing unusual in the gear box oil and nothing I could feel stuck to the magnet. So when I get my new pan gasket today, I'll put it back together and ride it and see if the noise comes back. I suppose it could be something rattling around in the clutch area but I'm not pulling the tranny just to see.
I still haven't found anything loose on the outside of the bike, either.
-
You don't have an old, loose, tooth filling that's rattling and amplified when you wear a helmet, eh, Cousin Ed?
Free change in the tool tray? Flux capacitor bracket failed? Loose nut behind the bars? Sun spots? ::)
-
I still haven't found anything loose on the outside of the bike, either.
It got lost in the noise when I posted previously, I am increasingly of the opinion that your problem was a temporary "hang up" in the oil pressure operated cam chain tensioner. This can happen from time to time, all it needs is a very small bit of grit to hang the tensioner right up. Stop engine, piston retracts, grit moves and then gets flushed away and (hopefully) into the filter or pick up screen next start.
See http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/timingchain.htm
-
I had that article printed out in front of me when I did the timing chain, Tony. And another one that was more directly a "how to" but not really detailed enough for me. I hope you're right about your diagnosis. I did take the plunger and spring out and examine everything there.
I did find some gravel on the shelf over the rear of the gearbox, when I had the center spacer out to replace my neutral switch. (I replaced the switch with a slightly shorter bolt, M12 1.50, cut just a bit shorter than the original switch.) But I doubt that gravel rattled, as it was well cushioned by dirty mud and leaked oil.
I got the oil pan on last night and replaced all the fluids, and then the stupid thing wouldn't start. 7:30 at night, I decided to diagnose that tonight if I'm up to it after running 10 miles, or more likely, tomorrow after work. Man I'm tired of feeding gas to my Toyota pickup; if I can't get the bike running Wed. I'm definitely bicycling the rest of the week.
-
Ed, when you say the bike won't start, does the starter operate, but the engine doesn't fire ???
-
Ed, when you say the bike won't start, does the starter operate, but the engine doesn't fire ???
Yeah. I got home around 9:00 last night and managed to pull the plugs and ground them -- no spark but it spins around fine. I have my Chitech manual with me so I'll be going over the trouble-shooting guide to be ready to test stuff, if I get home in time to eat, lift weights, sell a Craigslist item,... you know what, I think I'll ride my bicycle for the rest of the week.
What's weird is it started fine after I changed the timing chain, and nothing about dropping the oil pan or changing my gear lube should have interfered with the ignition system.
-
Well crud. As I was afraid of, I pinched the wires from the bean can up to the ICU in two places. I didn't realize that the inner ribs between the outer cover and the timing chain cover would meet, and I was only worried with the outer rim.
I've read those plugs are no longer available. Is that wire replaceable, because I'm not really interested in trying to splice those 3 tiny wires, in two different places. I will probably just spring for the new electronic unit from ...can't remember which place right now, but it does away with the mechanical advance. Mine was sticking for a long time, but I spend so little time idling that I didn't feel like messing with it.
Anyway, enough with the rattle -- I have showed my skill in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
-
You can splice the wires back together .
-
You can splice the wires back together .
Yeah, after I posted I looked up youtube videos on splicing small wires. I guess I still don't have an excuse to get a new bean can. I'll take the wire out to the electric shop and work and (after putting up with some well-earned ridicule) ask if they have any more wire that guage and colors, and any really small shrink wrap for the individual wires. I have some that will work for the whole thing.
-
Well crud. As I was afraid of, I pinched the wires from the bean can up to the ICU in two places. I didn't realize that the inner ribs between the outer cover and the timing chain cover would meet, and I was only worried with the outer rim... I'm not really interested in trying to splice those 3 tiny wires, in two different places...
I too pinched one of the 22-gauge bean can wires twix the same interior rib. I was stranded on a Sunday afternoon out on the prairies of North Texas when the error exposed itself. Really unsure where I was but called Pretty Wife and gave her semi-coherent directions, asked her to drive out with the truck, ramp, tie downs and some cold beer. She did and I spliced n' soldered the wire/s without an issue.
Rick Jones at Motorrad Elektrix sells the new Alpha electronic bean can and it's a peach. A pricey peach.
First, remember to slip on a short bit of shrink tubing, then splice and solder. No biggie.
-
I got it back together last night but only ran it long enough to set the timing. I rode it to work today, and it seems fine. My idle speed is a little low but I'm due to clean out the carbs and re-tune. I think it's been 30,000 miles or more.
Anyway, no weird rattles. I'd be happier if I knew what caused it in the first place, but so long as it's gone I'm happy.