The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Red_Hen on May 04, 2014, 12:08:31 PM
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Hi Guys,
I have an electrical problem that I think points to the bean can. Bike has a new coil, new plug wires & caps & Wehrle unit was replaced with something Rick Jones sells. Valves are set correctly and carbs are balanced. Battery is new. Fuel is fresh.
Leading up to today, bike would run and then suddenly conk out as if someone turned off the key. It would later re-start - I thought it had to do with the bike being cold.
Rode her yesterday @ 50 miles w/out incident. Today was a different story. Went for a haircut and when I left, got on the bike, turned the key to "on" and no electrical. Turned key off and then on again and I had lights on dash. She started and as I was riding off, she ran like cold with same scenario as above. I got on the highway and bike started hesitating and popping and then she died. I tried starting her and she ran for a minute and then conked out. After that - nada. The only telling sign was when I switched on the key I heard a popping sound.
Called my neighbor who picked me and bike up. Bike now in garage. As stated, I've gone through everything except the bean can - I do have a new sensor, thanks to another member on this forum. Looks like it may be time to overhaul the can but before I do, wondering what the process is to diagnose?
From all I've read the sensors usually act up in hot weather - well that's definitely not the case here in MN today - in the low 50's.
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Quick Update - just went to try & start bike and she starts!
Are these the telling signs of a Hall sensor on the way out or could it be something else?
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Ken, Just to keep everyone on the same page, the ICU (Ignition Control Unit) is the solid state bit attached to the heat sink underneath the tank. The ITU (Ignition Trigger Unit) is ye old bean can.
You've probably already confirmed continuity of the three 22ga. wires out of the ITU. If they get pinched between the webs during a refit of the engine front cover, the occasional or total failure can be a result. Undortunately for me, they tested good with the engine off but a partially cut wire continued to cause grief. Look for a smashed portion of the wires sheathing.
Hall senders can suffer heat related failures. Modern automobiles use thing things in several different locations as 'crankshaft triggers'. My wife's cadillac DTS suffered an intermittent engine failure caused by this very issue and it was heat related Thank you, warranty!
Luck to you.
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Hi Monte and greetings to your lovely bride!
Was thinking the symptoms are more like a pinched wire and Yes, I was referring to the bean can - will disconnect battery and check wires - very symptomatic of a short! Thanks!
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I had a similar issue with my '81 R65 about 20 years ago .
The engine would just quit like you turned the key, or kill switch off .
I was doing alot of night riding then and I would lose the entire electrical system when this happened .
At the time, I was told to go through the entire electrical system and check all the connectors and 'pins ' for corroson and security in the connectors .
I did that, really didn't find anything out of the ordinary, but it hasn't come back in 20 years, well except two weeks ago, when the camshaft stopped turning !!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Bob and interested to find out the rest of the story on your motor.
I had a similar issue with a Honda SL125 - I'd be riding along and bang - bike would die - in that scenario, culprit was corrosion on the kill switch - checked my kill switch and wires look pristine!
After disconnecting battery, removed front shield and no pinched wires and wire coming out of bean is new, when Judson Cycle got it running for me - thinking not bean can but a short. Being 32 years old, some of the wires that connect to the alternator are brittle - really not sure where short is but the behavior sure points to a shorted wire "somewhere." Since I've been through all the wires under the tank and checked the kill switch, will re-focus under the shield - there's a tech session this coming Saturday so will see if some of the senior airheads might be able to help me trace it.
Bike NOW starts up and runs fine! Dies on the road, starts in the garage - isn't that the way it works?
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I've read some threads on dying bean cans - it seems like they don't suddenly die. Thinking I've had some warning signs - bike suddenly conks out while riding - but has happened when bike was on the colder side - like first 5 miles of riding.
While riding today it just started dying like someone turned off the ignition and given it doesn't seem to be the kill switch and that I've gone through all the wires and replace coil & ICU my gut says the hall sensor is on it's way out.
Is there a way to test? Or since I already have a new Hall Sensor maybe I'll disassemble and replace the sensor for good measure and peace of mind.
Here's a link on rebuilding the BC
http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/r100gs/auto_advance/index.html
Thanks again,
Ken
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I had the same kind of problem on a Honda 350 and it turned out to be the ignition switch. Too many keys on my key ring swinging back and forth for 30,000 miles had worn out the little contacts in the switch. Expensive to replace at the time but fixed the problem. Good luck and let us know what you figure out.
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Gonna overhaul the 'ol bean can - want to minimize my chances of getting stuck on a busy highway! No fun.
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I had something similar several years ago. I would be riding on the highway, the tach dropped to zero, the engine popped and backfired, then the idiot lights flashed as the bike went dead. It did not want to start at first, but after sitting a few minutes it re-started, and I made it the 10 miles home. I thought it was just a fluke. The next day, it happened again. Figuring I would try the "three strikes, you'r out" rule, I continued to use it and the problem has not reoccurred for several years. Never did figure out what it was. I wish you luck on the troubleshooting.
k_enn
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Wow - bean can disassembly reminds me of peeling an onion!
Wondering how we're gonna separate the (2) pieces of metal so we can drill out the old hall sensor and attach the new one - wondering if someone here could shed light on getting to this part of the Hall Sensor replacement process. Will the off-white plastic piece easily lift out w/out breaking? Delicate job for sure!
Innards look pretty good - wondering what you use to clean & lubricate.
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I did not drill out the rivets securing the Hall sensor to its mount. I ground off the rivets and then it was a simple pin punch and hammer to knock out the rivets.
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I did not drill out the rivets securing the Hall sensor to its mount. I ground off the rivets and then it was a simple pin punch and hammer to knock out the rivets.
Thanks, Monte - how did you get access to the second rivet as its blocked by the second plate shown in my picture - put another way, how did you remove the plastic piece & separate the lower metal piece beneath the plate that holds the hall sensor?
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I contacted Daryl Richman and he forwarded me his pictorial on overhauling his bean can - a good article to bookmark for future reference!
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262401521/0
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Ken, I've been scratching my head trying to remember a plastic shield inside my bean-o cans. Friend and Cannonball'er Daryl's photos confirmed it for me... No plastic shields inside my ITUs.
Perhaps yours may be a later model.
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Must me a later model - thanks for your continual help, Monte - will post outcome as soon as job is complete and I go for a test ride.
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Update on Bean Can Project - so far "no beans"
In the middle of dis assembly, my friend Niels wife had a car accident - wife is okay but cars seems to be totalled - doesn't take much to total a car these days - we'd just removed the umbrella that spins around the Hall sensor. We left off with a "C" clip on that was holding things together - we'd removed and not lost the tiny pin that secures into the shaft.
Yesterday we picked up where we left off - Niel is a retired mechanical engineer and quite talented for sure! He hooked up a oscilloscope to see if the Hall Sensor was working - so when it was hooked up to the scope, we had a vertical line and when we interrupted the signal, the line moved to the right - seemed to indicate the Hall Sensor is okay - it looked okay too - not broken or burned.
We cleaned, lubed & re-assembled but a little round spring at the bottom of the can where the shaft goes through came out and Niel thought we'd be okay without it seemed impossible to get it back in.
When I got home, Niel called to say there was a leftover "C" clip on the work bench - I'm sure it has to do with the umbrella and the little pin where the Hall Sensor resides - no wonder the bike wouldn't start - she popped a couple times but that was about it - I pulled the bean can and now know there's a missing clip that I'm sure is important!!!
On top of that, the connector pins are suspect, which I really should have checked before going into the bean can but I was "curious." No problems as always an educational experience and good fellowshiip working with Niel.
Though the Hall Sensor seemed to test okay and we also tested the new one, Niel was reluctant to drill out the new one and replace - BUT we were in that far anyway, maybe we should have for good measure or just added it to the other side to have a spare sensor, which makes sense to me. So the R65LS is currently grounded until further notice.
A part of me is interested in buying the Alpha Can from Rick at Motorrad but 350 is a lot of shekels. Another part of me says buy a used one on Ebay but those go for $150 and who knows if they even work.
Wondering about your thoughts on continuing with this bean can, buying a new one from Rick, or a used one? Also, where can I buy a new connector as the one I have is in really bad shape. To add insult to injury, the wires coming off the Hall sensor are Red, Green and Black and the wires coming off the harness from the bike are different colors - crazy! Trying to get this sorted out as many of you know, it is not a good feeling when your bike suddenly conks out and leaves you stranded!
Will report back, as we resume next week. Stay tuned.
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The "little round spring"... Are your referencing one of the two advance weight return springs?
"A leftover C-clip on the work bench"... Perhaps the clip that holds that 'little round spring' on its post?
Gotta replace both items. If you have a wheelbarrow full of patience, the spring can be replaced by working through the oval metal cap's opening. I can assure you that it is a tedious exercise. The c-clip, nope. Gotta open the can. You really wouldn't want a loose bit of hardware jamming up the bean can's shaft and transferring that energy back to the drive slot in the camshaft! Double Argggh!
Problem with checking the Hall sensor on a scope is that it cannot replicate the random heat failure that can cause the sensor to go Tango Uniform until it cools off and begins to repeat the failure mode cycle.
Georgestrait, our forum member in France, knows of a Euro available connector that will get you going.
Unless you wish to spend the $350+ with Rick or gamble on a used bean can and replace the sensor in that old/new unit as did I, suggest you gird your loins and re-address your existing ITU... since you'll already be inside to replace that little round sping and leftover c-clip.
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Thanks Monte - what does ITU stand for?
Also, the round spring I'm referring to are not the 2 little springs that attach to the arms that move - this spring is a larger spring on the end of the can where the dogs go into the crank - thinking spring was meant to keep the can sealed - that's the spring that we can't get back in the can. Is the spring essential and other question where would we find a replacement?
The leftover "C" clip is @ 5/8" diameter.
I bit off more than I can chew on this project :-/
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Run through Daryl's photo essay again. I think you are referring to the spring that wraps over the steel pin which secures the cam drive dog ears. It's purpose is to keep the pin where it belongs. It's on the outside of the bean can.
Here's another good ITU overhaul photo essay:
http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/r100gs/auto_advance/index.html
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Run through Daryl's photo essay again. I think you are referring to the spring that wraps over the steel pin which secures the cam drive dog ears. It's purpose is to keep the pin where it belongs. It's on the outside of the bean can.
Here's another good ITU overhaul photo essay:
http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/r100gs/auto_advance/index.html
It looks like a spring you'd see in a seal used for axles - not the spring over the shaft & pin by dog ears.
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IF I went that far in and had a replacement HALL sensor, I'd go all in and replace it. You *might* get luck and get the Hall sensor unit to fail by applying some heat to the unit while it is on the bench and hooked up (it would be intermittent, so you might have to also spin it with a low speed drill while it is hooked up to an oscope (that one in your picture is a classic antique scope, alright) while you blast it with a hair dryer.. or it might still appear to work OK under these conditions as the heat might not be as hot, and there will certainly not be the vibration added to teh mix..
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Hi Mike and thanks for your reply - there's an Airhead tech day tomorrow - since the sensor is suspect and we left the C Clip out, we're going to tear it apart again and see if we can R&R sensor & get all the parts back where they belong.
I did order new connectors between end of bean can and bike from this place: The OEM connectors on my bike are awful!
http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/1-962581-1/unknown/dp/28T0196?CMP=TREML008-004
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Hello !
The link you gave is for the housing only. You need the 3 pins, and the protecting boot also.
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Thanks, George - I believe this is the female connector:
http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-raychem/1-968976-9/housing-socket-3way/dp/28T0203
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No.
The one in the link has nothing in common, except the 3 way ...
Here http://www.kabelschuhe-shop.de/Connecteurs/Connecteurs-AMP-JPT/AMP-JPT-Set-3-pin-05-10-mm-%B2::7983.html?XTCsid=645391f4g24tcl2tcnlii21qt3 you'll find the 2 connectors. On the left the male and on the right the female.
They are the new version where the locking clip are built in the female connector. They also lack the boot making them properly waterproof (but there are the blue seals to put on the wire).
I've ordered twice from the Kalishop German site. They are fine and deliver the goods fast. But I'm in France and protected by EU laws. So YMMV ...
If you have to reach a certain basket amount look at their wiring products. They have wire splices I've never seen elsewhere.
Hope this helps.
P.S. : I forgot to mention that the pins require a special die on the wrench to be properly seated on the cable. I had success (so far) soldering them but you need to work properly in order to be able to insert the soldered pin into the receptacle and locking it into place... (my cable wrench can't get the proper die so the whole would cost me my first born just for 3 pins in the foreseeable future...)
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Thank You, George - I'm making use of the existing connectors for the time being.
I attended an Airhead Tech Day today and got help replacing the Hall Sensor - wow - what a job!
The good news is, my R65LS is back in service! I held my breath all the way - it's quite a tedious process, especially the R&R of the sensor - after breaking a couple drill bits trying to drill out the rivets, we used a grinder and ground them down - bike is running great!
Thanks for your help & encouragement. ;)