The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: 1972R60 on April 05, 2014, 09:46:54 PM
-
Time to change the oil for the 1st time. Checked the Clymer manual. Read a few web sites. Now ?s. Buy the filter/kit online or at the dealer? Which filter? Is BMW really down to only 2 filters for all models? I need a new o ring, filter and crush washer, right? Genuwine BMW oil, right? What else? Best sources on-line for genuwine BMW parts?
I am very fond of my R65. Put on 1000 miles last year. Bought it just after a fresh service. Stored it inside, full fuel tank, fuel stabalizer and a float charger on the battery. Most of the ice is melted in the driveway, I am ready to ride.
Thanks to all of you for all your help
-
Strange how what should be the simplest question can be potentially the most complicated to answer thanks to the particular design of our oil filter installation.
There are only two basic filters in terms of length. One of the oil cooler model and one for everything else. The one you want is 128mm long across the end seals. It can be a "straight filter" or a two part so called "bendy filter" as long as the length is correct. The bendy filter helps installation on some air heads but you don't need that facility. The bendy filter is stronger and will resist excess oil pressure better at the expense of less filter area. I prefer the straight filter for that reason even though I've actually had a crushed filter many years ago. The straight filter is a little easier to install as you don't have to worry about the seal between the two sections.
You will need a new $2000 O ring but not necessarily the steel shim or outer paper gasket unless they show signs of damage. Ideally a new crush washer on the drain plug but they don't automatically leak if undamaged.
A BMW sourced filter and oil is a safe bet for your first change but there are plenty of good quality alternatives available. Can't help you with online suppliers in the US. Someone else will fill that in.
If you've done some reading already you'll know about having enough but not too much compression on the $2000 O ring. If not Anton's web site is generally accepted as one of the definitive articles on this. Don't be put off by the fact his diagram shows an oil cooler model. If you have realised that the outer gasket is not there to keep oil in but is just a spacer then you have understood how our crazy filter installation works but not before. It's an anomaly that BMW did not design from scratch. It only came about as a result of some airhead models needing an oil cooler and the rest of us without oil coolers were lumbered with the same details for sealing the filter.
http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/canister.html
With the plugs out and shorted to earth to safeguard the ignition coils from being open circuit, prime the oil system by cranking engine over until the oil light goes off. It will take quite a few seconds of cranking.
Last but not least and this particularly applies to a 79 because of the slightly shallower sump - only fill the oil to half way between min and max on the dipstick. This allows a little more air space which reduces crankcase compression and will prevent early loss of oil through the engine breather.
-
I'll add one bit about cranking the engine to prime the filter.
If you turn off the fuel and run the engine til it dies of starvation before draining the oil, you don't have to worry about pulling and grounding the plugs or spraying air/fuel mix out of the plug holes. If you are working in a clean environment you can also remove the carb bowls and crank the engine without it starting.
-
... Buy the filter/kit online or at the dealer? Which filter? ... I need a new o ring, filter and crush washer, right? Genuwine BMW oil, right? What else? Best sources on-line for genuwine BMW parts? ...
You may certainly buy the oil filter kit at your local BMW dealer, but be advised, BMW does not make the filter nor the included parts. What they will do is charge you BMW prices.
Excluding the filter itself, the O-rings and metal shims are almost as cheap as dirt so my recommendation is to use fresh parts every time. When you pull your current filter, you will most likely find a pressure-deformed metal shim. At about 25-cents, why go back with a shim that you have no knowledge of when or if it has ever been replaced?
EuroMotorElectrics, Denver CO, is operated by John Rayski. He can supply you with the same filter kit as sold by BMW shops at a substantially reduced price. With three Airheads in my garage, I buy the bendy filter in 5 or 10-packs and get a fine price. I also buy 10-packs of o-rings, metal shims and the gaskets that are required on my R100S. BTW, your R65 may not require a paper gasket even though one comes in the filter kit. Neither of my R65s require a gasket. using one would reduce the 'crush" percentage required of the o-ring and possibly cause reduced oil pressure.
BMW motor oil is packaged for BMW, and as far as I know, it is Golden Spectro brand. Highly coveted by the dealership as reflected by their prices. I use Castrol 4T-20W50 motorcycle oil. Hey! let's start another dreaded Oil Thread!
Depending on which manufacturer BMW is getting the best prices from, you'll usually get a Mann or Mahle oil filter. I use the EnDuraLast bendy filters. Your choice, but do look through the EME website. Last I heard, saving money ain't a sin.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/329.htm
PS: Semi-Rant I wouldn't mind supporting a BMW dealership but the sad fact is that very few will accept Airheads in their service departments. Even fewer carry adequate Airhead parts, but will gladly order them for you at full price and an often 2-3 week wait. Your bike. Your money. Your decision.
-
Last I heard, saving money ain't a sin.
Sure ain't Monte and you get shims for 25 cents !!!
They cost 12 times that amount in the UK so I re-use them as long as they still look good. The shim on it's own is poor value but Motobins include them in a filter kit if I need one.
-
... you get shims for 25 cents !!! ...
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I buy all the oil filter canister bits in volume from EME. Think I'm fully stocked for several years. Decades? Have about eight "bendy filters" on hand, too.
[smiley=whistling.gif]
-
May I add in addition to Barry's comprehensive post.
Read Snowbum on oil filters (aka the $2,000.00 "O" ring)
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Oil.htm
Believe what he says. Also, just because the person who last changed the filter on your bike used (or didn't use) both a shim and a gasket, don't assume that they knew what they were doing. Measure and know.
For many years I used to buy cheap "standard" "O" rings and a cheap aftermarket filter supplied (misguidedly) by a State based BMW rider's club here in Australia. In some ways I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then. The only positive thing is that neither my R100 or my wife's R80 died of my lack of knowledge. My suspicions were aroused when my engine felt "different" as I went down the street after an oil change, closely followed by the oil light coming on at idle when I stopped to investigate. The filter, which was actually made by a then reputable firm (Ryco) was actually designed to be an air filter for a brand of mower popular in Australia. some enterprising member of the club noted that it had almost identical dimensions to the BMW filter, requiring only two small "o" rings at either end and a black "standard" big "O" ring to be sold as a filter kit. (If anyone is interested I have retained a couple to take photos of as a warning to others).
As you have probably already guessed the filter collapsed, causing a severe reduction in the amount of pressure.
-
(If anyone is interested I have retained a couple to take photos of as a warning to others).
Many of you will have seen these before some 4 years back but talking of a warning to others this is what you don't want to happen.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwr65.org%2Fhtdocs%2Fyabbfiles%2FAttachments%2FFilter.JPG&hash=823c1ba7923ab9f1cc42e04aa8fe767aced5c659)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwr65.org%2Fhtdocs%2Fyabbfiles%2FAttachments%2FFilter_End.JPG&hash=6855ceda4a93707a5be79eb246b00a81a98182b0)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwr65.org%2Fhtdocs%2Fyabbfiles%2FAttachments%2FFlat_Filter.JPG&hash=3f4baace77f4e9753055282f65af68c1240b8f40)
-
Not trying to hijack this thread, but this had me concerned guys. The Last time I replaced my oil filter it was crushed flat, and I'm always having a flickering oil pressure light whenever I get the bike really really hot, like when I use it for more than 3 hours or when I get stuck in traffic. But when I use it for my daily commuting(around 30km), It never does that.
Is this normal or did I just do something bad?
I remember the oil filter cover leaking really really bad with a single shim and gasket installed, so I just put in another shim rather than remove the gasket. I never had any problems keeping the oil inside the engine after that.
-
Scary photos... every time I see 'em.
A benefit with the joined, 2-part oil filters is the substantial gains in strength of the filter's crush resistance. Yes, you will give up a small percentage in filter material but the benefits, IMO, outweigh the trade off. They're also easier to install. Allen head screws replaced those three bolts that caused so much squawking and lost time during a filter swap.
With cold weather, the Airhead engine generates massive oil pressures at start up. Even in temperate climes, slow revs during warm-up are life insurance for the engine. Let the UJM racer boys do their 5-6K rev "warm ups".
Lawn mower air filter! I can see that happening with a twit for a club's buyer. >:(
-
Ack! Julio, measure your canister depth and calculate the o-ring crush percentage. Confirm you need a gasket on the R65 or not.
And quit using those lawn mower air filters that Tony sent you. :D
I'll find my "o-ring crush" formula and post it in a little while.
-
Julio,
When I discovered that my filter was crushed I hadn't noticed any problem with the oil light. It went off normally at start up and never came on again even at idle. I probably didn't experience anything like your high temperatures though as mine was crushed in the winter and the oil changed in early spring.
Hope you have escaped with out any damage. You can check the filter easily without draining the oil by putting a couple of 1" planks under the wheels and then with the bike on the side stand it will lean over more than usual. The cover can be removed for a visual inspection of the filter with the loss of only a few drops of oil. Feeling in need of some assurance I did that a couple of times after the oil change following my flattened filter.
Your experience is a perfect demonstration that the cover gasket is not there to keep the oil in as if the $2O00 ring is doing it's job there will be no oil at the cover gasket interface. Some go as far as to suggest that if the depth calculations allow you are better off without the gasket as the cover joint would more easily provide a tell tale leak if something is amiss with the filter installation.
If you have a gasket you can turn that around and say that on every occasion the cover is removed the gasket should be dry and that will confirm the $2000 O ring has been doing it's job. If you are still concerned, this check can be combined with the filter inspection above.
My last tip is when you do the O ring compression calculation rather than make assumptions about the dimensions of the components involved, measure them yourself and use those figures in the calculations. I found the dimensions to be slightly different to the standard ones you see quoted.
The standard canister depth is 3mm. Notice how with use of the normal components it only takes an additional 0.4mm of canister depth to take you from ideal to unacceptable O ring compression.
-
Formula to determine the percentage of O-Ring compression: Plug in your o-ring's relaxed thickness, plus shim thickness, minus gasket thickness (if applicable), minus canister depth, divided by o-ring thickness, times 100 to calculate o-ring percentage of compression.
O-Ring [size=14]+[/size] shim[size=14] - [/size] gasket [size=14]-[/size] canister depth [size=14]/[/size] O-ring [size=14]x[/size] 100 [size=14]=[/size] %
-
So out of curiosity, what target percentages are folks using? (I see Barry is going for 12.5%) I've heard 10-25%, which would mean shimming to 3.6-3.0mm with the 4mm white o-ring. Largiader's site says most shim the canister depth to 3.2-3.8mm, though a BMW bulletin in '83 allowed shimming the depth to 3.1mm.
Again, just curious. I know it isn't rocket science... and I've run both fairly high and low o-ring compression without blowing the engine up :D
-
When I was going through my training to become an aircraft mechanic one of the statistics that has stuck with me, is a 20 % reduction of cross sectional area of an o-ring provides optimal sealing .
For what ever that is worth !!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Personally, if the o-ring is square when I remove it, I consider it to be a proper seal, that's about as non-technical as it gets !!!!! .
-
Thank You all for your input. I checked out EME and am considering buying 5 of each of the parts. Then a case of the right oil will set me up for the near future. I do not waqnt to start an oil thread, but I am still open toinput on the whole topic.
Thanks again [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
-
Below are the photos of one of the 5 or so Ryco oil filters obtained through the BMW motorcycle club of QLD that I have retained.
After nearly 25 years I may have in fact done the club an injustice. In my fury and umbrage at the time I was simply not open to an alternate explanation and simply blamed the BMW club and Ryco.
First the photos.
1. I checked this number in the current Ryco database, it is no longer available.
2. How the kit was supplied, iirc there were normally only two small "O" rings supplied and one large black one.
3. Now here is an interesting thing that prompted me to make some phone calls, there is a spring in there that would positively stop the filter from collapsing.
I rang a friend, who is still a member of the club who told me that I only had part of the story, and, more to the point, that I was utterly wrong.
The story goes that originally a club member worked for Ryco and they authorized a production run of "compatible filters" after conducting extensive tests on genuine articles. The run was successful and the filters were sold to club members at a very significant discount over the BMW genuine filter. So successful in fact that further production runs were authorized and the filters were sold to BMW clubs elsewhere in Australia and overseas. Apparently there was never a single instance of failure with these filters.
I stopped using them as it was simply not worth the discount price to fit them to a R100Rs - I went back to using the "bendy" filters and gritting my teeth at the price.
My wife and I sort of lost touch with the club for a few years and it wasn't until the late 80s that we rejoined. Shortly after that I purchased some filters, the filter in the photo being one of them. Arpound the same time i also purchased filters for our mower.
Now this is very difficult for me to admit, but it seems in the cold light of hindsight that I did in fact fit an airfilter, but it was all my own work, the result of my inadvertence. as you can see fromt he last photo, whist a very much "younger' device, you can see how with metal ends it could be mistaken for a BMW oil filter.
I owe the BMW club of QLD a vicarious apology it seems. But not the Ryco filter company. In the early 90s Ryco moved all manufacture offshore to China, their filters have not been worth using as anything more than paperweights since.
-
I shoot for 25% on my three Airheads. It may vary a bit but below 15% may be too low of a compression factor. My data is from Anton, Snowbum and my buddy in Sandy Eggo, Mike Valenti.
-
Sure makes me feel better about shimming to 3mm the other day!
Checked it twice because I was paranoid... it was an oil filter I installed. Phew! :D
-
Checked it twice because I was paranoid... it was an oil filter I installed. Phew! :D
Yeah well, how do you think I feel. when it happened and I had just pulled a totally collapsed filter out of my bike I was incandescent with rage at the fool that sold me "that" filter.
Pity it took me 25 odd years to realize that the fool was me.
Anyway, ripper - in the very near future I will be starting the R65 for the first time since it ate a valve 20 years ago, I have cleaned out the metal from everywhere I can get to but was planning to bring it up to temperature and then dump the oil and filter. At least I have a couple of spare low cost filters to expend in that process
-
Anyway, ripper - in the very near future I will be starting the R65 for the first time since it ate a valve 20 years ago
You may want to charge the battery as it has been stood a while..... [smiley=whistling.gif]
Lou