The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: arvo92 on March 30, 2014, 02:18:19 PM
-
After purchasing the R65 in end of January, I finally got the brakes to the state I took the bike to a longer ride. After 10 miles of driving joyfully the bike started to shake and grind a lot. I stopped to realise the back wheel was misaligned from the place the wheel connects to the shaft drive. The axle bolt is totally closed though and how could it happen, I do not know.
I could scrape off metal flakes from the connection area. Has anyone ever encountered the same situation? How bad could it be? Potentially I hope taking the tyre off and installing it again would do it but I have no daylight today anymore to take the wheel off.
Couple of pictures. the wheel and shaft drive housing do not align parallel but have some gap in some areas and are rubbing against each other at shaft drive housing area.
-
My first guess, is wheel bearing problems .
-
I had my dinner, took my head-torch out and took the wheel off. After removing the big axle nut, I could just swim the whole back wheel from side to side. The play was just incredible.
No picture since it is pitch dark outside but the wheel bearings were playing around their hub. I do not know how much movement there should be in a wheel bearing but I could just move them with a finger around their inner hub.
Seems like I am going to order a new set of bearings. Can I get away ordering just the bearings or should I order other items?
-
Seems like I am going to order a new set of bearings. Can I get away ordering just the bearings or should I order other items?
Wheel bearings don't fail in such dramatic fashion without something else being wrong like the amount of pre-load applied. Excess pre-load due to incorrect shimming or the complete absence of the inner spacer between the inner bearings can lead to the whole bearing seizing up and the outer bearing spinning in the hub. That's bad news but it does sound like that's what happened to yours if I've understood you correctly in saying they are loose. The wheel will need a specialist repair to re-sleeve the hub or a replacement wheel may be needed.
If you mean the inner races are loose and just fall out then that's normal but I don't see that fitting your symptoms.
-
Wheel bearings don't fail in such dramatic fashion without something else being wrong..
Did you have the top hats and axle spacer assembled correctly and in place? Did you do any work before the ride with the wheel bearings? I would think the bearings would seize before the outer races would hollow out the hub. Did you have the wedding band installed (correctly) with the correct preload? I would love to see some details of the way it came apart and some pictures of the damage to the bearings, hub and splines.
More questions than answers at this juncture. Hopefully we can sort this out.
-
I see another has already suggested this. but before you go off half-cocked (I just love finding new ways to use that word that does not enliven the intervention of the naughty word filter this board uses) Search the ground near where you were working on the wheel last and locate the top hat or spacer you forgot to refit.
Refit top hat (or spacer) and ride happily off into the sunset.
-
Ok. I try to answer to as many questions as I can at the same time. Sorry if I make lots of neewbie mistakes in terms, it is my first time taking wheel bearing assemblys apart:
I have never taken the wheel off myself. Yesterday was the first time.
Top hats were both there. They were aligned properly (edge side pressing on bearing).
The axle nut itself was tightened for doomsday - even when I got it turning it took me a few full turns to get it loose enough so it was sliding on threads. The good old 120 lbs for the torque wrench value I got from my workshop manual was the value I torqued it few weeks ago.
Bearings did not seize, the bearing shells did not spin around, they are still in place but have some marks on them from the bearing movement.
Bearings themselves are still intact. I will add a picture.
I took all the goodies out I could dig out by hand and aligned them on axle bolt the way they should go in. Bearing sleeves are still in there and behind them are two yellowish plastic rings. Still in fine condition. I can not get them out, the bearing sleeves are on the way.
I have no idea about wedding band preload. Wedding band is that metal spacer attached next in line to the inner spacing tube?
After taking the wheel off I came to this nice realization. Illustrated in the picture. 30k miles on the clock and the shaft splines are totaled? That is what you get with a bike with 10 previous owners. Another problem for me to fix. The shiny part in the background blur shows how wide the teeth have been previously. Could that have some influence on the bearing problem?
Hopefully I got it all down now. Thank you for all the info you have given me. Seems it is not a total disaster, I am assuming the axle nut was torqued much much more than it should have been.
-
The good old 120 lbs for the torque wrench value I got from my workshop manual was the value I torqued it few weeks ago.
Which workshop manual was that ?
30ftlbs is nearer the mark. There is a method to check bearing pre-load to see if that spacer is the correct thickness as they are available in 2 thou increments. Yes the wedding band it is the narrow band on the right of your picture and the yellow plastic thing is nothing to worry about it's just a guide and can't come out without removing the outer races.
I would be suspicious of those wheel splines having covered only 30K.
-
I am assuming the axle nut was torqued much much more than it should have been.
You are correct, 120 ftlb's is way over the top (Plenty of chain driven bikes call for less than that). Should be more like 30-35 ftlb's.
Final drive/rear wheel spline wear shouldn't result in lateral play of the back wheel, but it will give you driveline slop as you transition from acceleration/steady speed to dieseling (engine braking). Those splines should be cleaned and lubed with a high moly grease--such as Honda Moly 60--every so often or they will wear quickly and if really neglected can rust, as is your case.
Your clutch/transmission input splines require the same lubrication. If you haven't checked them I'd add that to yesterday's list before you wind up with a very expensive repair.
::edit:: and you'll want to check your rear wheel splines as well. If they have worn excessively, they could kill a new set of final drive splines
-
Looks like you all the parts for the bearing stack, but it may not be adjusted correctly to give the propr prload on the bearings .
The axle torque, is 45-50 Nm, 33-36 ft lbs .
So, 120 is waaaaaaay too much .
For final drive output spline lubrication, I just finished up the replacement of the output seal on my '81 R65, got the new brake shoes last week .
I thought the Honda moly 60 grease was too thin for this application, so I mixed it with sticky wheel bearing grease and applied it to the splines .
Your splines look like they are in need of replacement, or repair, if that is an option available to you in your area .
-
I got the value from the BMW repair manual (the white one I got from Motorworks). I probably have mistaken some other value with it. As I look into the torque value section there I can not put a finger on it.
I was just reading about pre-loading the bearings. Is there a spacer kit available in England? I checked the Motorworks homesite and I can order only the wedding rings in increments but no washer kits.
I would be suspicious of those wheel splines having covered only 30K.
I am suspicious as well. The bike might be put together from different parts, who knows.
Your clutch/transmission input splines require the same lubrication
That is a major job which takes more than one day, isn't it? and I need special tools for holding the clutch together, right?
Again - not done this ever and it is a bit scary to think ripping the gearbox off and the bike into parts. I would like to be sure I have all the required tools before proceeding into it.
And instead Honda moly 60 I have Optimol paste and Castrol moly. I was thinking mixing them together in 50/50 ratio.
-
Your splines look like they are in need of replacement, or repair, if that is an option available to you in your area .
I took the pre-cautionary measure and ordered a replacement part from ebay for a 100 pounds. Not cheap but at least the parts are available for these bikes still.
-
I had the same problem finding shims in the UK and I also thought the wedding band increments of 2 thou was too big so I made my own shims. You won't know what size you'll need until the new bearings are assembled which can be a pain if you have to order more parts.
The gearbox input spline lube is not as bad as you think as there is no need to disturb the clutch. More like half a day or a little more if the gearbox is being completely removed.
-
I also thought the wedding band increments of 2 thou was too big so I made my own shims
What is the material you used to make the shims? Is there a real easy "going to the hardware store" way?
My existing wedding band is 7.0mm exactly. and yes, .05a millimeter in technical standards is pretty wild increase. I would much more like to see .025 increase at tops, better .01 mm increase to get more accurate results.
I found this link -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVKPGcf0xag R100 which is very similar type of engine. Seems not to be too bad job for a beginner.
-
Cleaning and lubing the transmission/clutch splines can be done for the first time in under a day while drinking on the job [smiley=beer.gif]. It's really worth it to get the job done on a new-to-you bike.
I like doing it Snobum's way, as you end up taking care of the clutch arm/throwout and swingarm all at the same time. Did just the splines my first time, but the next season decided to do the whole shootin' match and found the extra bits worthwhile.
The video you linked is from Chris Harris, who has some other good airhead stuff on youtube as well. He just closed his full time shop to do more of his video making.
-
Arvo,
Getting to the party a little late. I agree, way too much torque (120 Ft-Lb). You should never exceed 35 Ft-Lb on the axle nuts, ever. I don't doubt there's marks left on the outer races. If you get the wheel hub and outer races cleaned up post some pictures for us. Get the bearing stack and bits cleaned up also, lightly oil everything to protect them from the elements and take a close look at things. Look for pitting, discoloring, and brinelling on the rollers and races. The spline picture is hard for me to determine if there's significant damage, obviously they haven't seen grease in quite some time.
I would think new bearings are in order. But I wouldn't dive in and order any new wedding bands until after you get the new bearings and races installed and are able to check the preload. Get everything cleaned up and organized. You can order OEM wedding band sizes in increments of 0.10mm. If you need a different size than what you have I would order the closest step up and hand mill to the required thickness. I no longer use the 0.05mm shims, just my personal preference. I get preload set with wedding band only. You can decide on your own to use shims or not. If you do I recommend you making a record of how many and what sizes so you can be sure to retrieve all of them the next time you service the stack. Don't forget to order new grease seals too.
Before we move ahead, have we determined what caused the wobbling?
-
A 7.05mm wedding band is available so that's approx. 2 thou bigger than your current one. It's not at all unusual for the factory fitted wedding band to be too small and therefore they were set up with too much pre-load on the bearings if the recommended torque was used. I found by experimentation that 2 thou made a huge difference as unless you are lucky it will take you from no pre-load to too much pre-load. Even still it's not hard to do better than the factory as my rear wheel was miles out. (See link below) I hand cut and finished shims from standard steel shim stock which was laborious but better than waiting days for new parts.
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1382821010/5#5
-
You can order OEM wedding band sizes in increments of 0.10mm.
Thanks for the correction Barry. OEM wedding bands can be had in 0.05mm increments. And I agree 0.05mm can make a big difference in preload, especially if you are at either end of the threshold.
Even still it's not hard to do better than the factory as my rear wheel was miles out
+1. Personally I prefer a little lighter preload than the factory spec.
-
OK. more pictures on the way to identify finally what has been the issue for me.
I work outside for 12 hours per day, getting back to the house still in the time for daylight is tricky. Luckily today I got back a bit earlier and could get proper shots. I re-sized the pictures as small as possible, hopefully I will not get linched for filling up the server space.
Interesting founds:
Both of the bearing races are shown - both have rubbing marks on them from the bearings. Nothing bad by touching the finger.
Both hats have groovs in them. What could cause this? They are definitely not even by touching with fingers.
One of the bearing was good, the other has serious damage marks on the lower side of the bearing shells. Shown on picture. By turning the bearing it does not rotate totally freely. It crudges and grinds. That one is totally shot. I bet that is my issue for the wheel misalignment/bad sounds.
One of the grease seal springs was gone. I only found a 5mm long piece of it inside the hub.
The wheel shaft splines look as brand new, no marks on them whatsoever.
So my question is - new bearings, new grease seals, a new wedding band 0.05mm thicker so I would not have to order it separately. And new hats?
Thanks for the answers so far. They are a lot of help!
-
Arvo, yes replace the top hats. When ordering them be sure to take measurements of both the right and left and relay the information to the people that are supplying the new parts to you. The grooves are created from the wipers on the grease seals, and the lack of lubrication. Apply a thin film of oil or light grease on the shoulders of the top hats when you reassemble things. Obviously that bearing stack and assembly has been neglected for some time. Looks like water has gotten into the hub.
Those bearings are shot. The outer races and hub doesn't appear to have any serious damage. Replace the bearings, top hats, and seals. You may look into a bearing puller to remove those races. Even with the steel hub inserts, applying a bit of heat to the hub makes things easier.
I would imagine that bike is happy it found you!
-
drift the races out from the other sides , with care! just use a normal size hammer! lol ;D
-
7.05mm is the next size up on your existing wedding band spacer but I don't think you can make an assumption about what size is needed until after the new bearings have been fitted. It's a trial and error process which is a pain if it means a delay ordering new parts but that's why I went down the shim route.
Mike V is correct in defending the wedding band only approach as that is the OEM solution. Shim kits were an after market solution aimed at making home set up more convenient. They were never available from BMW and never needed by the dealer who had a box full of wedding bands in all sizes. I have no problem using shims as long as you know they are there. BTW when I said I hand cut my own shims don't imagine the end result is inevitably something dog eared and inconsistent. With some ingenuity using home made abrasive mandrels for the bore and clamping the shim between washers on a mandrel for the diameter, the finished result can be very acceptable. It's laborious but also don't imagine you can just punch them out without producing a lot of distortion. That requires very high quality and expensive equipment.
-
drift the races out from the other sides , with care! just use a normal size hammer! lol ;D
I wouldn't personally recommend this, just my personal opinion, with all due respect livingdeadhead. You can use any procedure you choose Arvo. But if you damage the interior hub shoulder you'll have other issues to deal with. If you choose to tap the races out from the opposing side I would recommend using a hardwood dowel or something hard enough to do the job without scarring the hub. I would also use moderate heat to ease the race extraction. Some adequate pullers are available that are affordable and suitable for the job. Here's an example of the tool I've used with great success. YMMV.
-
I have one of those tools, too, Mike. Man that thing is clever. Seeing stuff like that makes me wish I were creative instead of just smart. Mine is from Cycleworks, or what ever the name is of Ed Korn's company.
-
Me too Ed. First thing I said to myself when I used this tool was ... why didn't I think of that?! Ed Korn's creativeness with his specialized airhead tools that are available through Dan Neiner at Cycle Works is nothing short of miraculous in my opinion. This tool makes the job so quick, safe and easy.
This tool also doubles as a puller for the swingarm bearings. And the square block you see is cut to the correct size to tap the races into the bore if you choose to use it for that purpose.
-
Very clever tool you have there! I would love to have something like that but obviously I have no time getting it this time.
I ordered all the part today and I intend to get these bearings sorted during the weekend if the shipment arrives without problems. I decided I am going for the tapping method this time. I looked online for tools pulling them out but most of them are for round wheel bearings not tapered roller bearings. Therefore they utilise the inner shim of the bearing to pull them out while tapered rollers need something behind races. So I did not find anything suitable for tapered rollers.
Therefore I am heating the wheel up (cooking it next to a outdoor woodburner a bit) and using oakwood stick to knock the races out. Hopefully taken care in the process it should go without problems. I think getting the new races in - I freeze the new bearing race and use old inner bearing to knock the frozen race into heated wheel assembly. The new oil seals can be driven in with old races as well.
Does it sound good?
I measured old hats as well. Motorworks has only one lenghts available. Mine differed both combined by 0.15mm. So it means the new hats are longer by that so I ordered a new wedding band to compensate that. If that is too small, I can grind the existing wedding band which is 0.15mm thicker down to required spec.
This process seemed to be a total headache a few days back but I think I can handle this now. With all the help I have gotten here and my golden pair of hand I should be invincible!
-
Wheel bearing pre-load must count as a right of passage to Airhead ownership. It'll be very satisfying to know it's been done right..... then you have the front wheel to do.
-
Therefore I am heating the wheel up (cooking it next to a outdoor woodburner a bit) and using oakwood stick to knock the races out. Hopefully taken care in the process it should go without problems. I think getting the new races in - I freeze the new bearing race and use old inner bearing to knock the frozen race into heated wheel assembly. The new oil seals can be driven in with old races as well.Does it sound good?
Arvo, "moderate" heat should be more than adequate, I would say 140° to 160° to remove the outer races. Keep the new bearings mated in pairs, don't mix and match. I would NOT recommend using the old rollers to tap the new races in. You could very easily damage the outer races that way. Freeze the new race and moderately heat the wheel, then use a socket with an outside diameter that will fit just inside the wheel hub diameter and carefully tap the outer race home. The grease seals can be installed the same way.
Here's a picture for reference below...
I measured old hats as well. Motorworks has only one lenghts available. Mine differed both combined by 0.15mm. So it means the new hats are longer by that so I ordered a new wedding band to compensate that. If that is too small, I can grind the existing wedding band which is 0.15mm thicker down to required spec.
The top hats will have no effect on determining the correct wedding band thickness during the preload process, the top hats are captured outside each end of the bearing stack, even though they are an essential piece of the entire puzzle. But they will effect wheel offset. Keep an eye on which top hat goes on which side if they are different lengths.
-
mild steel drift , ensure its on the race , not a lip or anything you can damage ! go from side to side gradually tap it out , takes about 5 mins including drinking a pot of tea! i've done hundreds in my own shop and working for other bike shops , the only cock up i've seen is when a friend drifted out the bearings of and old zx10 wheel , didn't look and took fingernail size chunks out of the retaining flange ! even with the chunks missing he refitted new bearings , there was enough meat left for adequate support, about a year later i bought the bike refurbed it and only noticed the damage when i had the wheels enamelled ! yes i refited them and ran it for 1000s of miles , daft speeds too .
-
I had this exact same problem two or three years ago. The wheel would scrape the final drive, wheel overheated and eventually the bearing self destructed and seized the wheel.
Culprit was too thin of a wedding band and too much torque on the axle.
Mike V. was kind enough to walk me through the whole process. It was harder for me to understand the mechanical principle behind the design than understanding integral calculus, but once I got it, the design is elegantly simple.
I used a steel rod roughly a little larger than the size of the axle to slowly hammer the bearing races out. I then used a suitable socket wrench bit to install the new ones in place. Same goes for the oil seal.
I never used heat, but I did chill the bearings in the fridge.
:)
-
It was harder for me to understand the mechanical principle behind the design than understanding integral calculus, but once I got it, the design is elegantly simple.
8-) Well said Julio!
-
I managed to take the job on today. No new bearing yet but I drifted the old ones out. Even oakwood was too brittle to drive them out. Finally I used a proper screwdriver and wacked them out with care. A few odd marks for the first try but just cosmetic damage.
In the long run I will go for a puller still. I need these wheels for years to come.
Still a bit confused to properly pre-load the wheels. With front wheel on the bike grease seals off I torque the axle nut 7 lbs and I can not move the wheel from side to side nor force move the metal spacer outside the hat on the left hand side of the bike if sitting on it. Reading info about pre-load the metal spacer should still be moving under 15-20 lbs force, am I right?
Wheel bearing pre-load must count as a right of passage to Airhead ownership.
I think you are right, Barry. I am definitely not there yet :) I will need to order the spring scale as I just do not know other way to achieve the proper pre-load.
-
Still a bit confused to properly pre-load the wheels. With front wheel on the bike grease seals off I torque the axle nut 7 lbs and I can not move the wheel from side to side nor force move the metal spacer outside the hat on the left hand side of the bike if sitting on it. Reading info about pre-load the metal spacer should still be moving under 15-20 lbs force, am I right?
Yes if you leave out the bit about being able to move the spacer outside of the bearing stack. Rocking the wheel is the only test needed to determine the correct wedding band size at least in this test method.
And what you have found is not so unusual as even if a previous owner has not messed with bearing pre-load they tended to come from the factory like that as described in my experience here http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1382821010/5#5
In my view there is some scope to stop short of the full specified torque value and that's what I have done with my front wheel but not at 7 ftlbs which is much too low. You will need to put in a wider wedding band or add a shim. The wedding bands only come in 2 thou increments so it will be interesting to see if that allows elimination of all play at the specified torque of 32 ftlbs. The reason I settled for a lower than 32ftlb torque value is because when I added the thinnest shim the free play was not quite eliminated at 32 ftbs. I decided I was better off without the shim. Maybe one reason why the factory shipped the bikes with too much pre-load is because the 2 thou increment in wedding band size is simply too big and they thought too much pre-load was better than none at all.
-
I guess the only way to determine the effect of "jump" from one increment up with 0.002 is to try it out with the wedding band ordered from one of the suppliers. I will order two wedding bands 2 steps up (0.002 and 0.004) and will give them a go. I will try to see what torque value for each of them will torque them to the same result as I get with current wedding band and 7 ftlbs. It will take some time for me since I will be going away for roughly 2 weeks but I will let you all know when I get back.
Even though 7 lbs got my front axle fully torqued, the bearings were good after being torqued to proper values (I assume 30 ftlbs). They are from the same set as the rear ones which failed. I assume they were replaced at the same time or might be even originals (30203J2/VT108 - SKF/Italy). So I guess reasonable over-torquing is fine but there definitely is the limit which destroys them.
-
Arvo,
I'll try to explain the best I can the procedure I use for preload. I like to have the wheel off of the bike and captured in a vice or in my Work Mate. The important part of this exercise is to have a take-up collar or spacer to substitute the space the swingarm and final drive takes when the wheel is on the bike. This collar can be purchased from Cycle Works or you can fabricate one, or use a 3/4" pipe at appropriate length. The important part about the collar is that the sides are as close to perpendicular as possible so equal force is applied to both bearings when the stack is torqued.
Clean new bearings and races, lightly oiled, no grease seals or top hats.
Assemble axle, and take-up collar, torque axle nut to 20 Ft-Lb. If using the string pull test - take readings and note your target in-oz of pull rate. If the preload is too high (stiff axle) you need to increase the width or thickness of your wedding band. If the preload is too light, you need to reduce the width or thickness of the wedding band. The wedding band is a simple spacer inside the stack of fixed spaced races and bearings. The outer races are not moving, they are captured and fixed inside the wheel hub. The rollers on the other hand are being adjusted (in width) to match the correct width of the outer races by the way of the wedding band. Do some mock-ups, experimentation to understand what's really going on. Do some trials with different torque loads on the axle nut in increments of 5 Ft-Lbs and notice the difference in axle rotation resistance. You are looking for the correct preload to diminish and stay constant beyond approximately 25 Ft-Lb of torque. Re-read Barry's post and even go to Snowbum's web site and study that too.
You are looking for a consistent preload amount with the axle nut torqued to ±25 to 30 Ft-Lb. NEVER exceed 35 Ft-Lb of torque on the axle nut. The axle should turn in your hands smoothly but with a slight amount of drag. But it should never wobble (loose) or move when grabbed and pushed and pulled alternately. (wiggle test)
When you have determined proper preload, clean your bearings and pack well with bearing grease, install top hats and new grease seals, torque to 30 Ft-Lbs.
That's the "general" explanation of my procedure...
-
Thank you very much, Mike, for this illustrated summary. It pretty much says it all. I think you are right about taking the wheel off and using a spacing collar. That is the only way to measure the drag you have.
So you are not using the top hats for the measurement? That is something I have missed so far while digging into different sources of information. Do You just subsitute them with a longer spacing collar?
My main problem is getting a proper spacing collar for this trick as I do not have an access to a lathe. As I understand the exact length of the spacing collar is not so important as long as it replaces the width of the missing swingarm and final drive and you are able to torque the nut freely. But the perpendicular sides seem vital, that is why I am a bit worried to buy a 3/4 ince tube from a hardware store.
-
Arvo,
The top hats have no affect on the preload determination. Think about where they're positioned ... 'outside" the rollers while the wedding band is positioned "inside" the rollers which will directly affect the spacing width of the rollers.
I think you're getting it now. Yes, the collar is important to be as close to perpendicular as possible. Some here have used pipe sections from the Hardware Store. If the collar you decide on is too raw at the ends what you'll experience is "radial stepping" when turning the axle. You'll feel it spin-stop-spin-stop, if you get what I'm saying. You will have to determine on your own what to use. The closer the inside diameter of the collar to 17mm that will fit nicely on the axle will help also so it self-aligns on the inner races of the rollers. Maybe those that have used hardware supplies can help you with material.
-
Hello !
I use a spacer to replace the front fork thickness or swing arm/transmission thickness when doing my wheel balance after changing tires.
I've found 18mm dia plastic tubing used in home electricity to be both cheap easy to cut and sturdy enough. In order to press properly on the inner race of the bearings, I put the bearing stop (number 3 and 12 on the image below). This is made for perpendicular and correct dia on the bearing...
-
a screwdriver is much too hard to use as a drift ! a rod about a foot long, circular , and about 1/2 " thick , plain mild steel is fine , i've yet to mark a wheel . anything softer seems to deform too easily and/or absorb the impact which defeats the object , besides a screwdriver blade can break , seen it happen , hope you wore eye protection , you only get one set!