The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Bill Conquest on August 31, 2013, 01:47:04 AM
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Hi. I was taking a day ride last week when the bike suddenly quit on me as if the kill switch had been hit.. I was going about 55 & running well when it shut down, It was not a fuel issue and when I checked the spark at the plugs there didn't seem to be any.. checked the points & they looked o.k., took off the tank & checked the main ground which had already been rerouted & it was o.k., it has relatively new coils & wires & caps...after about 40 min. it started & got me home but ran roughly..where should I start looking? It's a '79 r65.
Thanks for any ideas,
Bill
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Start with the battery first. Same happened to me and I had a loose positive. Since you checked the grounds, Id go to the switch next.
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... the bike suddenly quit on me as if the kill switch had been hit.
That wanky kill switch has stranded many riders. Intermittent operations are not that rare.
Run a circuit check or bypass the switch as a test. I never touch the kill switch on any of my Airheads.
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Did the starter work, but the engine wouldn't fire ??
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If the battery or ground was the problem, you would have lost all electrical components when the bike died. I too would suspect the killswitch, but I also find it odd that it would run rough once you got it going again.
I know you said the coil was relatively new, but what is it? When my Bosch "crack o' matic" bit the bullet on a rainy day, it wouldn't run unless I kept the revs up. Supposedly they aren't known for longevity.
I'm also thinking of stories I've heard of car coils getting hot and then not wanting to work until they cool off
Perhaps somebody could chime in with a test procedure for you coil.
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His '79 R65, should have 2 seperate coils, like the kind that were in auto use for decades .
About the only way to test the coils, would be to heat them up with a hair dryer, or heat gun on low and see if you get the failure with a hot coil .
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I have expereinced the same problem in 2 diferent forms. The kill switch was the culprit in the first instance. Bike died completely and there was no starter or any electrical activity apart from the headlight. I quickly deduced the kill switch and gave it a wiggle and away it went.
Second instance was over a long ride last week.. new coils and spark plugs and leads. This did a lot to cure indifferent starting and rough running, however in my enthusiasm in getting the thing running as well as possible, I started to check all of the connectors under the tank.There was the one 3 wire connetor that was completely crusted internall in white salts. Took quite a bit of levering to get it apart and cleaned up... Putting it back together I had lost spark completely... Lots of fiddling eventually got some action and it went well for another 300 kms and then suddenly died again .. same symptom... starter turned over allright but no ignition eveident. After fiddling witht he rogue connector again, it went. ... So I am about to attack the connector with a points file and some vinegar which apparantly will dissolve all the accumulated salts..Then will try some dielectric grease to seal and protect from further corrosion.
So my advice is check all your connections!
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Thanks for the responses.Yes, Bob..the starter was fine but absolutely no firing from the engine...i fired up the bike today & it ran well for about 1 mile, then the same thing again..battery is fine & the starter fires up well but the engine just shuts down. I fiddled with the kill switch wires but that didn't have any effect..will check all wire connections & think about new coils.. any other ideas?
Thaqnks, Bill
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Since writing my earlier comments to this thread, Ive pulled apart the connector in question... The 3 wire connector that links the ignition controller witht he coils. It is located under the tank and I was pretty amazed at the condition of the conductors inside the connector. They were completely covered in dense verdigris buildup that must have had a significant impact on the effectiveness of the connector once I had disturbed it. My bike had lived most of its life in a warm marine climate which has left its mark all over the bike with corrosopm and build up of gunk everywhere. It took a lot of force to get that cionnector apart and until I was able to fully clean the contacts, just reconnecting it was bound to lead to poor contacts and th eloss of ignition.
Good luck!!
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...after about 40 min. it started & got me home but ran roughly..where should I start looking? It's a '79 r65.
My wife's 79 r65 did a very similar thing a couple of times in the 90s, I recall that it died without warning, but after a 10 or 15 minute "break" it would start up again, although when it did restart it ran well.
Anyway I chased a few blind alleys, including checking earths, kill switch etc and thought I had it beat - then about 6 months later it did it again. On a hunch I replaced the ignition switch, a step that would normally have been rather expensive to do on nothing more than a hunch, but at the time I had a spare R65 I was robbing for parts (it is the one I am rebuilding now) and in any event it has never stopped without apparent cause since so I am counting that one as a win. Wife used to have about 500g of assorted keys, ornaments and other crap on her key ring, (again on a hunch) I suggested she pare that down a tad to no more than 3 or 4 keys, the theory being that having 1/2 kilo of stuff bouncing around on the end of the key was unlikely to be doing good things for the switch.
Anyway, I am grateful for you reminding me of that little event as my rebuild is currently sporting what I now remember to be a probably defective ignition switch.
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Bill, Your problem is looking more and more like a heat related issue.
Have you checked the heat sink paste on the ICU? If that paste material has hardened and or started flaking away, that could cause intermittent running. Radio Shack for a small tube of their heat sink paste.
Next best guess would be an issue with the coils and a heat related problem with one or both.
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His bike has a points type ignition .
I'm very far removed from a vehicle with points type ignition, could a failed or failing condenser by the points be a possible cause ?
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I'm very far removed from a vehicle with points type ignition, could a failed or failing condenser by the points be a possible cause ?
Could be a faulty condensor although it would have to fail short circuit for there to be no spark at all.
If the condensor failed open circuit there would be excessive arcing at the points and a very weak spark.
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His bike has a points type ignition.
Rats. Foiled again. :(
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Certainly could be a shorted condensor, though not a guarantee that this is the culprit. I'd certainly have it out and test it - or simply replace it - to see if it makes a difference.
I have to tip my hat to our new member Dugald, who lives in what has got to be one of the most interesting-named towns we have represented in our international community!
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His '79 R65, should have 2 seperate coils, like the kind that were in auto use for decades
His bike has a points type ignition .
Bob is on a roll!
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I have to tip my hat to our new member Dugald, who lives in what has got to be one of the most interesting-named towns we have represented in our international community!
Certainly is one hell of an address.
There is a famous Welsh town I've visited not that far from where I live. It's called:
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
A bit of a mouthful and frankly just plain silly. Even the locals call it simply Llanfair.
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Thanks for the feedback, been so busy, will get back to it this week. The bike has new points & condenser, coils are relatively new used bosche from a member here.. Thinking about replacing them with motto rad new ones from Rick..I hate to just throw parts at it as a method but I'm not sure what else to do!
Thanks
Bill
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Do you have a decent multimeter, or have a friend who has one? There are certainly things you can check before buying new parts, but without a multimeter, it certainly cuts down on what one can test.
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Yes I do have a multimeter but am not sure where to start checking..i suspect the coils but will also check all the grounding points and wire connections. intermittent failure is a tough thing to figure out for me!
Bill
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Intermittent electrical problems are the worst to troubleshoot .
You need to go at it methodically .
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Points ignition is very simple. Here's a basic method to check the coils and wiring are at least not open circuit on the primary side.
Turn the ignition on and check for voltage on #15 of the rear coil.
If you don't have +12V the problem is in the first part of the circuit that incorporates the ignition switch and kill switch.
If you have 12v then check for voltage at #1 of the rear coil then at #15 and #1 of the front coil.
If the points are open you should see +12V on each of those terminals.
If the points are closed you should see approx. +6V at both #1 of the rear coil and #15 of the front coil. There should be 0V on #1 of the front coil.
If the voltage checks are not right with the points open and closed then you have an issue with the points.
If all of these voltage checks are OK and there is still no spark at all then it will be looking like problems with the coil secondary windings. Most unlikely that both coils have failed at the same time though.
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Start with the ignition off. First, use the multimeter to check that your spark plug wires are good, and the coil outputs are good. You can test these individually with the multimeter - assuming that you have resistor caps in your plug wires, the resistance from the coil end of the wire out to the boot where the plug is inserted should give you somewhere aroun 1000 to 5000 ohms. (One can get plug caps of either 1000 or 5000 ohms, typically). The output coils of the various ignition coils vary in resistance, but usually these are in the 20,000 to 50,000 ohm range. If each plug wire checks out OK, one should also be able to put the multimeter leads on each plug wire boot and measure the total resistance, which should be somewhere between 22,000 and 60,000 ohms (depending on caps, coils, etc.). Write this number down, and then see if the bike will start and run.
Assuming it does run, bring your multimeter along with you and run it until you encounter the problem. When it happens, turn off the ignition key, dismount and quickly pull the plug wires from the sparkplugs and check the total resistance with your multimeter - you should get a number very close to the first number you measured. If the multimeter's number is alot higher, or reads as open circuit, then one, or both of the coils's secondaries are opening up due to heat.
The coil primaries should measure less than 5 ohms of resistance each, but you'll have to take the tank off to check them.
I *think* that the kill switch test will also work with the points-type ignition(?) At least, it is handy with the solid state ignition units - one takes a spark plug out and bungees it so the metal threaded section is held against the cylinder fins. (It helps to do this in a dark or shady place). Make sure the Kill switch is in the RUN position, and turn onthe ignition key, and, closely watching the sparkplug for it to emit 1 spark when you flip the Kill switch to STOP. You can repeat the process for the other cylinder. IF the spark occurs, then it is likely that Kill switch is OK and the coils and plug wires are OK, and the problem lies somewhere inthe bean can or the wiring to it. IF the spark doesn't occur, it could be a shorted Kill switch or problem in the coil(s) or plug wires.
someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.
The voltage checks that Barry identifies above are also good and I'd recommend that you do perform those when testing in your garage to make sure things are right to begin with - though of course this means pulling the fuel tank off. You can wiggle the handlebars and some wires as well to see if the intermittent problem is a bad wire or connection. It isn't always so easy to pull the fuel tank off on the side of the road to measure those voltages, but if you can do so, great!
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someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.
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The kill switch test will only work on a points bike if the engine has stopped in a position with the points closed. Back in the day the equivalent test was to rotate the engine until the points were closed and then flick them open with a screwdriver. Both tests amount to the same thing.
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Bill, to get rid of the risk of the bike quitting on the road and put you in a hazardous situation, put the bike in your carport or garage with with two fans blowing air over the engine/cylinders .
Run the engine until it quits, doesn't sound like it should take too long .
Have a set of spare spark plugs and when the engine quits, remove the ignition lead from the plugs, put your spare set into them place them on the cylinders and operate the starter to see if you have spark or not .
Have the fuel tank low on fuel so it can be removed easily and then check out the electrical system while it's still hot .
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someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.
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The kill switch test will only work on a points bike if the engine has stopped in a position with the points closed. Back in the day the equivalent test was to rotate the engine until the points were closed and then flick them open with a screwdriver. Both tests amount to the same thing.
Ah, correct Barry! I figured that, statistically speaking with the points ignition on these bikes, it was fairly likely (but certainly not definite) the engine would be at a points-closed state when it stopped.
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Thanks everyone for all the great info...I'm going to try these checks this week end and will report back...after I read over these ideas a few times.
Bill
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Hi Everyone, thanks again for the help on this problem. I rode the bike around & back to my house until it died..pulled the plugs & no spark. I waited a few minutes & it fired up again rode it up & down the driveway but it didn't die.. pulled the tank & did the tests on the coil Barry suggested & all the checks were over 12v...( I assume the points were open) now not sure where to proceed...
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If you can get it back to the no-spark condition, just turn the ignition off and do the resistance measurement test from one spark plug wire boot to the other boot (plugs taken out of course). This will tell us if the plug wires and secondary coil windings are OK. There could still be an issue with the coils on the primary side of things, sosomething wrong with the kill switch, ignition switch or points/condensor, but it is a start...
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I tried that test with my meter on ohms but the numbers jumped around so much I couldn't seem to get a solid reading..I know i'm doing something wrong there..what number should I set the meter on?
thanks, Bill
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Oh - sounds like maybe your meter doesn't autorange (or perhaps it was telling you there was something wrong). If you have to select a scale/range on the ohms setting for your meter, probably set it at 200K to start with. The number you read should be somewhere between 20.0 - 60.0 or so. If it is over 200K, then there is something wrong
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The most consistent reading I got was at 36.5 with the meter set on 200k..the bikwe won't fire over at all...
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Also just finished hours of cleaning connections etc. It started up and I put the tank on and it won't start now..
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OK, 36.5 would be in a typical range with 5K ohm resistor caps (2) and an approx 25K secondary coil resistance - are you running the (2) bosch (or equivalent) coils in series, or do you have a newer dual output coil? Either way though, that value is in the normal range for the coils I am aware of.
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I might not be going in the right direction with this, but if you remove the fuel tank, will the engine run ???
My thinking here, is a possibility of a chaffed bare wire some where on the wiring harness, when you put the tank on, the bare wire gets a ground and the ignition won't work .
Or when you're riding, the wire gets moved just enough to ground out .
If the fuel tank isn't too full, check the bottom of the fuel tank for chafe marks and then inspect the wiring in that area if you find any on the fuel tank .
Just a wild guess !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I have 2 bosch coils..I'll try the idea with the tank.. at this point i'm a bit lost..
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I'mnot familiar with the two coil installation, don't know what kind of clearance you have with the electrical connections on the coils .
When I installed my firsr DYNA coil on my '81 R65, I put the wire connectors on the primary circuit of the coil pointed away from the backbone frame tube, when I installed the fuel tank, the engine wouldn't start, adjusted the connectors and the engine ran fine .
Like I said, just a guess on previous experience .
Have you done any work on the ignition system lately ??
If you have,you may want to go back and look over the area(s) you worked in, maybe something is loose, etc ........
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I'll try that Bob..just took the tank off..still wouldn't fire up..fooled with the wiring all around and nothing..took out a plug & checked for spark ..then there was a spark so I got it started & running fine, while idleing put the tank on & ran it for 15 min. with no problem..but I have no confidence to go very far.. will try more tomorrow..
Thanks for the ideas..any more are welcome!
Bill
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Along the lines of pinched wires - maybe take a look under the front cover (you did say that the points and condensor were serviced) to see if maybe a wire from the beancan has gotten pinched under there - when the engine warms up and the alloy expands it might be pinching harder and grounding the voltage line to the points. IF you can look at the points, especially the wires to the condensor, might be worth looking there too for possible pinch point.
Somehow, the warming up of the engine and/or some vibration is disabling the ignition somehow, and cooling back down or some slight jostling of the bike as in tanking the fuel tank off seems to correct it - is that an accurate summary, given what is observed, so far?
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Bill, It sounds like the condenser to me. Kind of pricey, but you will have a spare if it is not the problem.
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... maybe take a look under the front cover (you did say that the points and condensor were serviced) to see if maybe a wire from the beancan has gotten pinched under there - when the engine warms up and the alloy expands it might be pinching harder and grounding the voltage line to the points.
BTDT. Took 30+ miles out into the boonies before one of the bean can wires shorted to ground and left me stuck. It can happen. I'm much more vigilant these days.
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Thanks guys...good suggestions & i'll check all this out after work. talked to Rick at motoraad..he told me to try hitting the kill switch with ignition on when it dies..if the plugs spark it isn't the coils..any ideas on this..I could further isolate the problem..?
Thanks, Bill
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Bill - you can try that, but that was one of the things I'd mentioned for you to try back on 9/5, and I thought you'd already done that? Won't hurt to try it again and report back what the results are.
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Yes you did..sorry I got a little mixed up with all the stuff I was trying...now I've taken the bike out twice on short forays & have not had it die like before..I think i'll have to buy some fans & run it with the fans on 'till it quits..will report back & thanks again for all the help & patience!
Bill
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Well, after a couple weeks away from the bike due to work pressure i'm back on the trail.. I've taken it for 3 or 4 30 minute rides with no problems..maybe it was a connection or wire that I managed to jiggle back into place..not too reassuring. My auto mechanic brother tells me sometimes having the wrong spark plugs can cause a heated coil or other parts and cause failure..any thoughts on that? I'm running new NGK BP7ES plugs..
Thanks, Bill
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NGKBP7ES are ideal plugs, probably the best.
I don't subscribe to the theory of plugs causing a coil to overheat and fail. The only thing I can think of that would cause a coil to get hotter than normal would be closed up points resulting in longer dwell. Even then I doubt it would be an issue with 6 Volt coils.
As far as I know the only impact a plug could have on the coil is the HT voltage needed to jump the plug gap so a grossly excessive plug gap might stress the coil a little but that's about it.
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The plugs you have are the correct ones .
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Bill, Those NGKs live happily in both my R65s with no problemo.
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Also just finished hours of cleaning connections etc. It started up and I put the tank on and it won't start now..
I'm sure I suggested this before, sorry if I did not. The three prime suspects are (in order of likelihood) 1/ Kill Switch, 2/ Ignition switch and 3/. Main power wiring to Ignition switch.
I think you have eliminated the kill switch - suggest strongly that next time you have no spark that you wriggle the ignition switch. By the way, it would take you about 2 minutes to make up a jumper lead to permanently supply power to the coils which would eliminate some really strange fault with the coils or wiring to the points. Probably a good idea to make the jumper lead up so that you can get home if it plays up again.
BUT, do check the ignition switch as that what was proved to faulty on my wife's R65 which nearly drove me mad trying to find and eliminate an intermittent loss of sparks.
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Thanks everyone ..will check the ignition switch if it dies again but I did try jiggling the wires into the switch & it didn't affect anything..but still is suspect. The idea of the jumper wire sounds good..where do I put it?
Thanks, Bill
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The idea of the jumper wire sounds good..where do I put it?
Thanks, Bill
Bill, its been a while and I am at work and cannot check. But, your coils (I think you have a twin coil model) will have a terminal that receives +ve 12 volts via the ignition and kill switch. Identify which wire it is and disconnect it, then make up a lead direct from +ve battery terminal (with an inline 10amp fuze if you desire) and connect it directly to the +ve coil terminal - your coils are now "hot" and if you turn the engine over - it should start. Go for a ride sufficient to cause the sudden failures you have been experiencing - if it doesn't fail you have positively excluded the coils and wiring between coil and points/ breaker. If it does fail, then your problem is confined to the coils and contact breaker - next step would be to make another jumper direct to the breaker and see if you still have sudden stops - if you do, replace the breakers, if it still stops, replace the coils (but I very much doubt it will be the coils of breakers - the reason I propose going the way of jumpering out chunks of the bike's wiring harness is to "move the fault" as my old apprentice master used to say. Once you stop an intermittent fault from happening, you can positively eliminate everything still connected at the time the fault stops manifesting and can then work from a known base.
DON"T FORGET TO DISCONNECT THE JUMPER TO THE COILS or you will have a flat battery, cooked coils, or both :'(
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Bill
Make up a short lead from the +ve battery terminal to terminal 15 on the rear coil. You should find there is a spare spade on the coil to connect to. Don't leave the jumper on for more than a couple of minutes without the engine running. An in line fuse in the jumper cable would be an added safety feature in case of a short circuit.
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You should have a free spade on the harness to plug the optional voltmeter. This makes a good candidate for connecting the ignition directly bypassing the kill switch. This wire is shut off by the main key switch (so if it is the culprit, it won't show...).
If your harness is original, the female spade will be stored in the area of the speedo and tacho wiring.
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Thanks so much you guys for the explanation & diagram.. will check after work this week - end and now understand ....
Thanks, Bill
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I have to tip my hat to our new member Dugald, who lives in what has got to be one of the most interesting-named towns we have represented in our international community!
I'm sorry I can't help much with the bike problem (my money's on the ignition switch) but, yes, here in the north east of Victoria we do have some interesting place names. Not far from Yackandandah is Tangambalanga which is just down the road from Tallangatta. In the other direction is Mudgeegonga. For speed tests the roads around Tarrawingee and Carraragarmungee are flat, straight and empty. But my favourite is Colac Colac which, for no apparent reason, is pronounced Clack Clack. I'm easily amused.