The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: georgesgiralt on July 18, 2013, 11:07:03 AM
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Hello !
My '82 R65 runs fine. For days. But sometimes, there is a glitch. The ignition seems to be cut for half a second. The speedo drops about 2000 RPM, the voltmeter shows nothing.
As the ignition harness had damaged wires, I changed it for a new BMW one. Ouch.
The coil is brand new, plugs are new. Plugs caps are BMW and band new (at first I thought it came from the NGK and cheap wires I had).
I tested a new ICU without success.
Carburettors are clean and perfect, ignition is set spot on.
So any ideas or leads is welcome !
Many thanks in advance for your help.
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Well it's obviously ignition if the rev counter drops. You already know that.
I'm not sure how the Hall effect sensor could produce a fault like this but logically what else is there as you replaced or substituted everything else.
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If your voltmeter shows '0' volts during the 'event', you have an electrical supply problem .
The power flows from the battery to the ignition switch, then to the fuses, then to the other circuits on the bike .
My first guess, would be the ignition switch, I've had two fail in the same way over the last 32 years, intermittent electrical loss, then it comes back in a second or two .
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I was not clear in typing. When the glitch happens, the voltmeter shows it's nominal voltage. No drop at all.
So I wonder if the main switch may be at fault ?
Maybe the kill switch ?
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The ignition circuit goes through the kill switch .
One of our members here in the last few weeks had a kill switch go bad, broken solder joint at the switch .
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How about monitoring voltage at the +12v terminal of the ignition coil. The would show whether the intermittent fault was an ignition component fault (indicated voltage did not drop) or a fault in the part of the electrical wiring , kill swtch etc that provides the +12 v to the coil (indicated voltage did drop).
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Excellent Barry !
I'll try this. A wire to route to the voltmeter and that's it !
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I had a similar issue on the '80 R65RS and it was "fixed" by adding a ground strap between the forks and the frame. Doing a voltage check with the ground lead on the frame and the probe on a 12v point on the bars showed intermittent dropouts when the forks were rotated.
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electrical wiring , kill swtch etc
"etc" --could that include the sidestand safety interlock switch?
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"etc"--could that include the sidestand safety interlock switch?
We don't have that on the UK models so I'm not sure. Does it inhibit the starter operation or cut the ignition, You would have to deploy the stand while the engine is running to find out. If I had to guess I would say it inhibits the starter function in the same way as the clutch/neutral switch.
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No side stand switch on my French bike. So something less to worry about....
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I have had a kill swich issue on my bike in the past.
The switched can be stripped and rebuilt carefully. I view the kill switch with so much suspicion that I do not use it ...Ever.
They can break up inside though.
Was here not an issue with standard R65's with head set bearings going as the path to earth was via the forks, through the bearings to the frame?
I do not have this issue with mine as I do not run any instruments or indicators any more....
Cheers
Rev light
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I've heard about the head bearings conducting and never understood what could be going on. All of the electrical systems on the bars have earth return wires so there would have to be one or more faults for the bearings to become a fortuitous earth path. I've even checked earth continuity between the bars and the frame with an ohm meter and can't see anything strange happening.
The tacho signal feed is the one odd ball that could be at the root of this bearing thing because of the high voltage.
On the kill switch I'm the same and never use it in anger ie to kill the ignition while it's running. As it's carrying the ignition current of several amps there would be an arc every time it was used which might eventually erode the contacts. It's the same as opening the points and they arc without a condenser across them.
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At one time, BMW may have used a grounding or earthing path through the steering head bearings, but if you look at a wiring diagram, all of the circuits that go up to the handle bars on an R65, have a brown grounding /earthing wires that go to the main point somewhere on the frame .
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My vote is with Steve Hawkins. Fiddle with the kill switch but don't lose the tiny parts. Oxidation or deterioration of little bits in the kill switch can cause the ignition to cut out intermittently or just completely die.
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Most of the original system has been replaced, and doesn't leave much - just the ignition switch and kill switch.
Depending on how frequently this happens - once every five minutes? - once every ten miles? - you might try running a hot wire to the coil and going for a ride. See if the fault still happens.
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Before pulling it apart you can bypass the switch to see if it's the culprit.
If you still have intermittent problems, it's either the wiring to the switch or something else.
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Hello !
Last week things were becoming worse. So I decided myself to wire the voltmeter to the ignition coil to monitor the supply voltage and see if it drops when the phenomenon arose....
Two days ago, I came back from work, (early 'cos I started before dawn at work) and decided to check that strange idle I had and wire the voltmeter to the coil.
So I started to look at the plug, found one sooty black and decided to tune the mixture as the bike was hot. 30 seconds later, the bike stopped. No more ignition. Nada, zilch.
The bean can Hall sensor had decided to die from a heart attack and go to the paradise of the sensors... 31 years old. Was kind enough to bring me home.
I feel lucky.
And to ease the things a bit, a friend of mine provided me with 4 bean cans, and a new sensor. He had a deal : I fix mine using my spare sensor bought month ago, fix one of his and return to him whatever part I did not use.
He told me there was a bean can still functioning well when cold. So I can still ride to work with the BMW.
Life is so good at times !
I just have to open 4 boxes and fix 2 or 3 of them ( I may have a Siemens sensor coming )...
So if you experience ignition shut off for a second or two, could be the Hall sensor asking for retirement... Keep that in mind ...
And thanks for the advices and help !
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Hello !
Just a follow up on this :
I've replaced the failed sensor on my bean can by a Siemens HKZ101. And on one spare bean can, I replaced the failed sensor by a Honeywell 2AV54 which is now unobtainium....
If you've to buy a new sensor, buy Siemens !
The rivet on the 2AV54 are solid metal which is very hard to pry so you'll have to hit it hard if you want it to stick on the plate. At the risk of deforming the plate or killing the sensor if unlucky... Unless you've a hand press and tooling available...
On the other hand, the Siemens rivets are tubular type. So using a conical instrument you pry them open, then finish the job using a steel bar and a hammer. The metal is quite soft, so it's a piece of cake to affix it to the plate !
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Could you see any physical damage to the sensor, like coming apart ???
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Alas not.
I think it could be some sort of poisoning due to the goo used to seal the electronics inside the sensor's box.
Ages ago, I worked in a factory producing sealed electronics and they had a forensic department to analyse such failures. I wish I could ask them (I would be younger and they won't be gone bankrupt... )
They showed me a box from which a very big capacitor had literally disappeared being eaten by the "fumes" from the goo. On X ray, the cavity was still showing but when they dissolved the goo, surprise !
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I checked the availability of the Siemens Hall sensor in North America, doesn't appear to be a commonly available part here .
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I *just* ordered some of the Chinese replacements for the Honeywell 2AV54 part. The Chinese part # is CYHME56. They also specify a replacement part for the oilhead sensor Siemens HKZ101, and that chinese part #CYHME301. Both parts appear to be electrically the same, but there are some subtle differences in the mechanical drawings. They may ultimately be interchangeable in the airhead beancans anyway, but I thought that I would get some of their "officially" specified replacement part for the Honeywell to test. I have a bean can which I presently don't know if it work or not, so I'll test it and if it needs repairing I'll try one of these Chen Yang Technologies replacements out on it.
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If the Chinese replacement for the Siemens part is mechanical identical, you'd better choose this one as the riveting job would be a lot easier...
It seems that Siemens either sold it's sensor division to someone else or stopped producing it because the Siemens sensor I got is flagged obsolete on some components sites I checked. Mine fits perfectly into the bean can and the "look" is perfectly identical (mounting wise) to the Honeywell.
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Ther've probably sold the manufacturering rights to another company, that's what Honeywell did with the 2AV54, they sold the rights to a Chinese company, there wasn't enough demand for the part ot make it worth they're while to continue manufacturering them .
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Last time I checked, Newark had the Honeywell for less than $12.00. Only one problem, minimum order 1,000 units. I was a little short of cash that week and put off the order for another day.
Seriously, this tells me, Honeywell will run a batch for a large enough order.
Anyone had good or bad experience with the Chinese units? My understanding from having read "how to" threads elsewhere is the sensors are not the problem, but instead wiring attaching the sensor to the plug deteriorates with heat and age. These things are getting older after all. Some repair threads talk about using special high temp wire and heat shrink. I would think, and that's a good way for me to get in trouble, the wires used for eyes on an electric range should be able to handle the heat.
No personal experience.
Bob
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Actually, one bean can I am trying to repair had a wire broken between the 3 prong plug and the bean can. Physically nothing was apparent. I discovered this after having replaced the "failed sensor", destroying it, soldered the new one on the hold harness and testing it. As it was not working, I thought, at first, I had destroyed the unit. But upon further inspection, testing the sensor directly, I discovered that one wire was dead... I had to patch the wiring outside the can (as the male Junior timer plug is unobtainium, AFAIK)... So if one of you has a source fr the AMP junior timer 3 contacts male plug, speak now ;)
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Hi Georges, saw this on a site that I'm ordering a headlight wiring harness for my '87 Guzzi .
Saw a section for connectors, probably not cost effective for a few low cost parts, but this may give you an idea of what's available for connectors for the 'bean can' .
http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/connectors.html
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Yes Bob, I've seen this site before.
If I've to replace the AMP junior Timer connector, I'll go the waterproof AMP 3 way connector one can find at the nearest auto part store (as they use plenty of them into modern cars ).
The nearest shop is 5 minutes from work and stock them in blister pockets, so you've just to pick them and pay ;-)
If, on the other hand need more wires to fit into the connector, the story changes. And you may be forced to order from the other side of the planet....
I'm fortunate enough to have saved the male connector.
I'm really wondering if the sensor was really faulty on this bean can ! We never know now...
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You can construct a tester for the sensor, just requires a 9 VDC battery and an LED .
http://robfrankham.co.uk/bike/vane_switch_tester_circuit.htm
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So if one of you has a source fr the AMP junior timer 3 contacts male plug, speak now ;)
So that is what the little buggers are. I spent 40 minutes at Ashdown Ingrams the other day trying to identify the connector. If they are really unavailable I think I will simply use the first three connectors of a standard PC power connector - solid contact, dead simple and cheap as.
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I've two !
I saw the schematics and ordered the plug, then waiting for it I saw that Motobins had a very attractive sale on the original BMW tool on their Ebay's account. I was mad to buy one...
The Motobins showed first.
As I had all the parts to copy it, I made a second one. Just missing the plug (I save it for... who knows ...) You can go without the plug provided you use small test pins and RESPECT the correct wiring...
LED is lit without anything into the sensor's gap.
As per the male connector, I was told by two vendors that it is not produced any more, as makers of sensors for the automotive industry make it on their factory. This way, they have a complete equipment. (like the mains plug on any appliance, they are moulded directly on the wire.) and this is strange as you may need some for the testing devices and/or maintenance equipment...
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Found these on Fleabay - looks like the right one
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321125652604
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Bought the last one ;D
But still two can to repair...
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Hello Lads,
As I've got one brand new AMP connector, I get my glasses on and looked at it thoroughly. (actually, I took them of as I'm short sighted :D )
The P/N is stamped on it. And guess what ? Farnell has them ... As a German company...
It's 1-962581-1 for the male 3 prong plug. Farnell sells them 10 by 10, but for a little bit higher, you can get them a piece in Germany here : http://www.kabelschuhe-shop.de/Connectors/AMP-JPT/JPT-3-pin-flat-plug-housing::7981.html
And Farnell's here : http://fr.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1863638&CMP=KNC-GFR-FFR-GEN-SKU-MDC&mckv=srCCvrQSW|pcrid|20175933794|kword|1-962581-1|match|p|plid|
Of course, it's not a kit, so you have to buy, also, the prongs, the 3 sealing gaskets, and the sealing boot. Everything on the German site.
So now, no excuse not to repair those bean-can waiting in the shop !
I'm, of course, not affiliated with any of these, not even a customer. :P