The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: TXRider60 on September 06, 2013, 08:40:06 PM
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I may be in the wrong forum category-- I often am-- but I'm looking for a simple answer to a tedious question. I'm thinking of selling my beloved R65...it's getting a little harder to swing my leg over it-- so I've explored some of the available options for lowering in 1-1/2". The problem for which I see NO solution is just rolling the motorcycle in, around, and out of the garage-- or perhaps out of a parking space (like the one I once saw Bengt Phorqs casually back-pedal out of on a small-town square in North Texas). My fizzickle state is in decline, but I'm NOT going to stop riding-- but the last time I moved the R65 around the garage I was "stove up" (Texas talk) for a couple of days. So, Friends and Experts, back to Question One: Would a non-shaft-driven (or non-German?) bike of similar weight be more free-wheeling, and easier to handle in neutral?
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Perhaps a touch (chain drives are slightly more efficient), but not enough to notice. An easy way to have a feel for yourself would be to get a chain drive bike and a shaft drive bike on their center stands and turn the rear wheels by hand.
When pushing 450 pounds, I doubt you will notice a difference. Perhaps a buddy or a dealer will let you give a "test ride." Work (in physics) is work. How many pounds of force applied over how many feet? Considering all wheels must turn relatively freely (consider friction nearly equal for most bikes), it's the weight of the bike that makes it harder to push.
What the Beemer does have going for you is a low center of gravity. That makes a bike much easier to handle Fred Flinstone style
Just a thought about mounting the bike... have you considered a combination of a ride off center stand (perhaps with a widened base) and floorboards? Might help you climb onto the bike as opposed to swinging a leg over from the ground. Combined with lowering, it might suit your situation.
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Burt, you may want to consider one of these motorcycle dollies by Legal Speeding. http://www.legalspeeding.com/Park-n-Move.htm
I have one and will usually keep Mrs. Phorqs bike parked on it since it is the bike that is ridden the least. Something to consider....
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Short answer - not much.
Long answer- The accepted generalisation is that chains are more efficient than shafts and that is true, particularly for offset Hypoid bevel gears as used in all rear wheel drive car axles. Our final drives however are not hypoid because the shafts are not offset. They are a special type of Klingelnburg Palliod spiral bevel gear and for this reason they have better efficiency than a hypoid. (I've done the research and when it comes to the geartooth profiles BMW used the very best technology available at the time). There is not a big difference in efficiency between chain and our type of final drive and in any case the comparative figures are always based on clean well lubricated brand new chains and sprockets. Anyone who has owned a chain driven bike will know how long that situation lasts.
This will take some believing but I promise you it's true.
As I have related before when I first got my bike the rear wheel bearing pre-load was so high that the bearing drag was easily measurable over and above the normal transmission oil drag. When I corrected the bearing pre-load and with fresh grease in the bearings the measured rotational torque required to turn the rear wheel was halved and the bikes rolling resistance was noticeably reduced.
I would ensure the bearing pre-loads are correct on both wheels and I would also use a synthetic or semi synthetic 75W90 oil in the gearbox, shaft and final drive. When cold this is vastly thinner than straight 90W (which is the worst oil you could use) so that the oil drag is reduced. Try this as an experiment. With the bike on the centre stand rotate the rear wheel by hand and feel the amount of drag when the oil is cold. Do the same thing after a ride when the oil is hot. The difference is very significant.
These may be small effects but they are cumulative. Sorting the wheel bearing pre-load and using semi synthetic gear oil really has made my bike significantly easier to push around.
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Side car with a reverse gear in the transmission would work . ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Easy to check so I'd confirm that there is no significant drag on the front brake disc/s. That was a big issue when I brought home my R100S. Ultimately had to replace one of the buggered-up ATE calipers.
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Hello !
I own a Honda and an R65. The Honda is a CBF600SA6. So same volume/weight as the BMW.
With the wheel bearings properly greased, I see no discernible difference when moving either bike. But I must confess that the BMW had suffered a very lazy maintenance and care for more years than I care to mention. So the bike was stiff really stiff. The handlebar was hard to turn and so on. Last year I decided to do something to her and started to put things back in order. New grease on every bearing I had on the bike, new fluids, carbs clean-up and rubber renewal, etc. ...
Wow ! It makes a tremendous difference. The bike, now is smoother than the Honda... So maybe part of your problem lies here. Add some drag on the brakes and you've a square rock to move around...
Last but not least, how to mount/dismount the bike ... I have no problem being more than 1m85 high. But my wife is 1m50. So small. But clever. Se mount the bike by putting one foot on the foot rest, climbing it, then passing her leg over the bike. Apply the reverse to dismount.
I told this to a friend which is smaller than me when he bought a 1200 GS with which he has the same problem than yours. He bless my wife every time he sees her... So give it a try. (let the bike on the lateral stand while doing this)
Hope this helps.
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Wet clutches can have more drag than a BMW Airhead clutch. Many chain drives have wet clutches.
After a long day at work all bikes are harder to push.
Bob
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My last bike - 1997 Suzuki Katana 750 was notably harder to roll around the garage - I blame with wet clutch and higher center of gravity. Pushing the R65 around is like a dream.
-John
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Wet clutches do drag more, but just put the bike in neutral and don't worry about using the clutch at all...
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I've noticed (and this may be particular to my slow leaking rear rim) that if the air pressure in the tires is low, the bike is noticeably both easier to tip over, and harder to back out of the garage.
Check the dents in my wife's car for proof!
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I can certainly relate to TX Burt's anxiety. I have a real bugaboo trying to move my R65LS around with any confidence at all that it won't fall over the opposite side. It is a real concern for me.
First off, I am not heavy enough nor tall enough to really easily put the bike on the centrestand (no heavy luggage) nor move it backwards unless very careful and the ground surface is smooth as in concrete paving....not grass. I can only let the bike carefully lean into my hip. I cannot for the life of me walk the bike back facing the rear....the twisted position is way to scary. I have a friend who has 35" inseam and is 6 yrs. younger and 5'10" tall. She has no problem doing what you and I think we should be able to do.
Well, I do move the Suzuki DR200 with nary a problem!! Lighter bike by far so suits my stature.
With long legs and sitting astride the BMW, my friend can paddle her way even up a small grade....try that when you have 30" inseam! Some people say...just slide over one cheek and push from there...sure....the bike is heavy enough that you still need to be careful it doesn't lean too far over that it gets to that "no saving" spot! I think extra height is a big help to overcome the weight of the bike getting out of control...just basic physics I bet....or geometry more likely!
Yup, either getting older or just being a weakling, we have to think things over and be in the right mood to take the abuse from those we ask to help. Some help out without question; others seem to make a point that "if you can't do that, the bike is too big for you"! Balderdash!
The spin in situ gizmos are good ideas. I made up one using 2 pieces of heavy plastic sheeting (from a kid's snow sled called krazy karpet here in the frozen north). Just bolt the two 18" X 18" pieces together so they spin on each other and add some cooking spray or other lube for ease of spinning. Place centrestand over gizmo, pull bike up onto centrestand and voila...turn with a mere one finger if your bike is well balanced on it's centrestand and not old and drooping!
I know this problem really bugs me as when I think about going for a ride, I'd much rather take the DR200 than either the Triumph or R65LS even though it is slower by far and oh so painful to sit on!
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Once out in a parking lot, strategic parking can really keep you from having to pedal the bike around in a difficult way. I always try to face it so that I can ride out of the parking spot.
With some time and creativity I bet a set of "training wheels" could be made to push the bike around the garage without worry of tipping
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After once pushing Tillie, my R65LS for 2 miles and change back home, ALL bikes can be hard to push under some circumstances!
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Maybe a belt drive would be the way to go... seems to work for pushing Harleys home ;D
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One really gets an appreciation for how much work 1 HP equals when pushing a 450 pound motorcycle up a hill on a gravel road - most unpleasant! At least the 1 mile of paved road was easy by comparison..
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One really gets an appreciation for how much work 1 HP equals when pushing a 450 pound motorcycle up a hill on a gravel road - most unpleasant!At least the 1 mile of paved road was easy by comparison..
I agree 1 HP is a lot more than we think and having also tried and ultimately failed to push my bike up an incline I couldn't resist working this one out.
1 HP will lift 550lbs in 1 sec so 450lbs in 0.82 sec.
Assuming a modest pushing pace of 2 miles per hour or 2.93 ft/s
1 hp would be able to push the bike up a 1 in 3.58 slope - I think there's no chance of that at least not by me.
A normal untrained person (that's me) is able to sustain only in the region of 75 watts for an hour or 1/10 of a HP
So that would equate to a slope of 1 in 35.8 which sounds about right as I was easily defeated by a 1 in 10 slope. It eventually took two of us with lots of rest periods.
We can do better than 1 in 35.8 for a short while but even a modest incline is a killer for any distance and rolling resistance on the level is insignificant by comparison.
Actually those calculations underestmate the task because we are also raising our own body weight at the same time as pushing the bike.
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.. somehow I thought Barry wouldn't be able to resist doing the maths on that one! ;)
I was able to push the bike up some paved slopes pretty well but I highly doubt I was able to sustain anything close to 1HP for any length of time, too. What was most crippling was trying to push the bike uphill on a gravel road - pushing hard resulted in my feet just slipping as the surface of the loose gravel gave way, and I nearly fell on my face with the bike toppling onto me. After VERY slow progress I eventually got to a flat spot where I could leave the bike while I walked the remaining half mile back home to get my truck and trailer.
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Hello !
I've had the great opportunity to test the rolling of my R65 by hand.
I had the bean can Hall sensor fail, so I got a replacement and last Sunday dismantled, affixed and soldered the new one in place. Bike started on first attempt, and a couple of minutes later I was on the road to test the bike, having a huge smile on my face.
It ran for exactly 1.5 km and then stopped like someone hit the kill switch. Fortunately enough I was at a traffic light. No ignition. As I used a Siemens sensor instead of the unobtainium Honeywell, I thought it was the sensor which was not good.
I had to push her up to the top of the hill where my home and garage was. Boys, that's hard ! I was exhausted when I finally came home.
I dismantled the bean can to find that the rotating steel cover (cutting the magnetic field to signal for ignition) had caught two of the three wires, cutting the red one straight...
So I now can tell that's hard to push a BMW ! And boy, they're HEAVY ! :'(
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.. somehow I thought Barry wouldn't be able to resist doing the maths on that one!
Looking back I missed out an important detail. It should have read:
1 HP will lift 550lbs 1 foot in 1 sec so lift 450lbs 1 foot in 0.82 sec.
Trust me the rest of it was correct ::)