The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: mrbuck on June 19, 2013, 04:58:43 PM
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Just blew the 5th clutch in the R100 on the way from Burlington Sat. This clutch as well as all the others was installed at the BMW dealership by trained techs. This clutch only had 5,491 miles on it.
I don't have the gearbox out so I don't know about the input shaft which was replaced along with gearbox overhaul the same number of miles ago but at a different shop...Clutch in Raleigh, gearbox in Greensboro.
So, now what? The OEM clutch went 69,500 miles. The second clutch only went 14K. The third 30,815. The fourth 25,336 (in Prospect, OR!). The fifth 5,491.
I must admit I pressed my luck on the 3rd and 4th about the spline greasing so my bad but 5,491?!?
I do not lug or slip the clutch and seldom run the revs below 3000rpm so I don't feel I am to blame unless it is something I haven't learned in the 145,227 miles I have ridden this old beast in the past 31 years.
Anyone got any ideas where to go from here and how to get a reliable ride without clutch worries.?
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Was the diaphragm spring, pressure ring and pressure plate replaced at any of these clutch disc replacements ???
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I honestly don't remember, if in fact, I ever knew. Msbuck and I worked for these dealerships when all of this work was done...1984-2004 and since the parts and labor were more or less at cost and with employee discounts there was never a need to take shortcuts. The last clutch was done at the dealership and was referred to by the tech as a clutch pack.
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If the failure wasn't due to contamination from a leaking rear main seal or gearbox input shaft seal or pump cover seal, I can only hypothesize that either the friction disk and/or diaphragm spring was out of spec and not replaced, or maybe it wasn't properly aligned/centered when everything was buttoned back up. I'd request that the parts be presented for inspection so you can see if there are clues as to the failure mechanism. Do you know if the splines are damaged or is it the friction material on the disk that is gone? Maybe you were somehow (un)lucky enough to get the one defective friction disk?
Does your R100 have, like, a turbocharger or 1500cc kit that would boost the power output way up? ;-)
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Not turbo ;D Just a stock 70hp with 145k on the clock.
I will remove the clutch myself and take the parts to the tech that installed the clutch pack. Hopefully, the parts will tell the tale of the failure.
I will proceed and followup with details later. I will be more diligent with the 10k service and ride on although the old Beemer is now used only for long trips as I have 2 other bikes.
Thanks for the speculations. When I know more I will report back.
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Also, ALL of the failures in the past were the stripping out of teeth inside the clutch plate. I can only assume the BMW shops had the proper tools to align the clutch pack.
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Are they using a grease with a high Molybdenum Disulfide content in the dealership, such as Honda Moly60?
Just because they should use it doesn't mean they do. Splines wear out from poor lubrication. Moly grease also helps with the impact forces on splines. If a moly grease was applied to your 5K clutch, it will still be there. If not... well, you've found your problem.
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Thanks, Luca. Good point. Time will tell.
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Interesting you bring this up. Just a few weeks ago I spoke with a local rider who bought his GS new twenty some years ago. He's got a very similar story to yours - in the 105K on the clock he's gone through four clutches. And they've been for the same reason, except for the first one I believe, which died a normal death. We talked at length about the situation and my conclusion is improper lubing. He also didn't do the work so didn't see the parts himself.
If too much lube is applied, clutch dust collects on the grease and acts as grinding compound. Only the thinnest layer of lube is needed and it's more for sealing out moisture to prevent corrosion than friction purposes.
I'm curious what you'll find.
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Indeed, very similar. Gearbox coming out in the next few days. I will report findings later. Not enough grease? Too much grease?
Aaaarrrrgggghhhh! :o What's a shade tree mechanic supposed to do?!?
Thanks for the comment.
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On a number of K bikes in the mid- late 90s, there were a number of premature clutch issues related to a misalignment of the gearbox, clutch and flywheel. I cannot seem to recall the fix, except to be more careful and double check alignment when putting things back together. Maybe someone will recall more of this.
When doing any clutch work, the friction disk splines should be cleaned and dried, and only sticky, high moly content grease should be applied to the transmission input shaft splines, and a bit on the tip of the pushrod. This avoids excess greasing and potential for contaminating the friction disk
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Sometimes the transmission didn't mate up properly to the block, but since the first clutch lived a fairly long happy life, I'd rule that one out.
The transmission case has a ridge near the outer mating edge that locks it to the engine block. The earlier /2 had alignment problems, so I've heard, but it's not a normal problem with the newer bikes.
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Not enough grease? Too much grease?
Aaaarrrrgggghhhh! What's a shade tree mechanic supposed to do?!?
For proper greasing clean the splines up till you'd eat off of them, gently load up a toothbrush with your moly grease, and brush it into the splines. Then, brush away any excess to leave a film behind.
I find the brushing across the splines fills the crevices with grease, then brushing along them coats the metal and wipes away excess.
Any excess will quickly get squeezed out of the splines and could contaminate your clutch. All you need is a film. When just a little of this stuff gets on your hands, it's impossible to wipe off... the idea is it will behave the same on your splines.
If the tech tells you he put moly on the clutch, ask him what kind. Some greases are advertised as "moly grease" but they dont have nearly the appropriate content for splined joints.
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The gearbox is ready to pull and I now have concerns about the gears/bearings. In prep of the gearbox removal, I drained the gearbox and only 200cc of gear oil came out and it smelled like burned popcorn. There should have been 800cc in the gearbox. I thought maybe the fluid leaked from the input shaft seal but after pulling the gearbox back 1/4 inch or so nothing came out so I guess that's all that was ever put in.....????. Who knows.
As my favorite philosopher once said, "What is, is." so the thing to do now is to deal with "what is" and get things back in order.
Although the mileage is low, this work was done back in 2004 so it isn't reasonable to assume going back to the dealership and complaining would do me any good.
LESSON LEARNED: No matter how many "Authorized" signs are hung or "Certified" diplomas are on the wall....ALWAYS check behind the technician to make sure your vital lubricants are in place.
Mrbuck said that.
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Oh man, so sorry to hear about this - that is a serious irritant, to say the least. Good luck to you as you dig further in - I am hoping that damage is as minimal as possible.
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Gearbox out...input shaft and clutch splines dry as a bone BUT undamaged! The clutch housing is also dry so no leaks to oil the clutch.
Now, what was that grinding noise and the "zinging" sound I was hearing when I decided to pull off the road? I can only believe it is the gearbox. I strained the 200cc of oil that came out and could find almost nothing in the form of metal shavings.
If I turn the input shaft by hand...very easy to do...there seems to be quite a bit of "slop" between the input shaft and the drive shaft (4 bolts) input connection.. Is this normal? I would say there is 15-20 degrees of "slop" in the output. Drive shaft and rear drive are not connected.
Anyone with similar experience? All theories are welcomed. :-/
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Have you checked the final drive output splines ?
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I removed the rear tire before taking the drive shaft/rear drive unit loose. Splines looked good.
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If you grasp the output flange on the transmission output shaft and turn it back and forth, do you feel like it is engaged/connected to the shaft?
If (hopefully) your gears are still intact, it might be that you lost a lobe/ear on the spring-loaded intermediate shaft inside the transmission. They don't often break, but if they do it could give alot of noise, somewhat disconnected feeling, yet not alot of metal shavings - provided that you stopped soon enough before things started to grind up. I've also seen one (Rare) case of the spring actually breaking - the owner was still somewhat able to move the bike on its own power, but it was not at all a smooth ride.
The part(s) I am thinking of are #5,6,&7 in this fiche-
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi159.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft138%2Fnhmaf%2F29d3638f-aacc-413c-8ae4-706c21f026b4_zpsf8f2e732.jpg&hash=a46dab1fa8dfcd3c30242763c075b9b144baa107) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/nhmaf/media/29d3638f-aacc-413c-8ae4-706c21f026b4_zpsf8f2e732.jpg.html)
....Errr, oops, sorry for the ridiculously small size... image copied from MAX's fiche library didn't work so well. You want to look up Diagram#23_0257 in the R65 parts fiche..
http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51897&rnd=04302013
I may very well be wrong on the diagnosis, but it kinda sounds similar to 1-2 threads I looked into a couple years back on another forum.
Fingers are crossed for you, but with so little oil in the gearbox, I assume that there was alot more friction than normal throughout its innards.
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As I said in the previous post, the input shaft and the output flange, are connected but with a lot of loose movement.
I will look up at larger diagram in my factory workshop manual and investigate your theory. Thanks to all for input. I will visit the two dealerships we have close connections to and pick the brains of their tech staff.
Later.
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At 145,000 miles, I'd say you are due for a transmission overhaul .
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See initial post...this was done at the same time the new clutch was installed...$1100.
As a wise person said, "If you have a problem money can solve, you don't have a real problem".
Every lesson in life ...and motorcycles...has a cost. I will stay in touch when the mystery is solved. Thanks again to all.
Any new ideas?
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Any new ideas?
Only think I can imagine is if you didn't have an extra 600cc's of fluid in the swingarm, perhaps somebody filled the transmission from the gear selector input instead of the fill plug. I'd replace the tech's head with your transmission.
But on a more serious note... I will visit the two dealerships we have close connections to and pick the brains of their tech staff.
I'f you've got one nearby, or don't mind mailing it, take your transmission to an airhead guru instead of just a dealership.
And even if the work was done years ago, go back to whoever rebuilt the trans and make a stink. The gear oil should be changed more frequently than it was... but the thing should also be filled to the level when it's given back to you. It's hard to miss leaking over a half a liter of oil. Worst that could happen is you end up right back where you are now.
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If I remember correctly, you had the threads stripped in the transmission, where the hollow bolt that secures the speedometer cable to the transmission threads into.
Is the small vent hole in the bolt clear ?
Did you place any sealant in the area after finding the threads stripped ?
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Great memory, Bob. Actually, I checked that and the hole was clear. What would the effect of that had been if plugged?
I know the vent hole is there to keep the lube from frothing...right?
Since I have the gearbox out I can heli coil the vent bolt and reattach the battery ground which I had moved to one of the coil mounts. That bolt had been held in place by the rubber boot for quite a while. Can't say I was proud of that arrangement. :)
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If the hole is plugged, the air in the transmission can't escape when it gets up to operating temperature, it 'pressurizes', possibly forcing oil into the drive shaft housing, if it can get past any seals .
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This much I know to this point.
*The clutch and input shaft are undamaged but dry.
*There was only 200cc of trans fluid in the gearbox.
*Gearbox experienced false neutrals and difficult shifting.
*The input shaft and drive shaft seem to be O.K.
*Spinning the gearbox on the work bench with an electric drill does not produce any unusual noises.
However, and this is the current question, should I be able to shift gears while spinning the input shaft? I can not make any shifts but the lever moves. I checked the shifter on MsBuck's R65 and note that while the engine isn't running it also will not shift on static.
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The transmission should shift without the clutch, especially under no load, but you will have to somehow spin it in the process.
If it wont shift with the transmission spinning you could have broken a pawl spring.
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Latest update..
*Added 800cc of generic 80W gear oil...final filling will be with Amsoil or other synthetic.
*Good news is that by turning the output shaft SLOWLY, not with an electiic drill as some suggested, I am able to shift through the gears with the aid of a small extension on the shifter for more leverage. To do this I would pause momentarily as if pulling the clutch in.
*Also good news is that turning the output shaft slowly I was able to get more of a feel (hearing) for the sounds of the gearbox which was only a slight gear whine near the input splines.
*After reading many posts at this point I may have to amend the "bone dry" statement I first posted. I have learned that many of the excellent lubes for splines will appear "dry" after a short time and it is the moly in the grease carrier that actually does the lubbing and not the grease itself. I am sure this will start a new thread. If so, all good advice will be appreciated.
Next stop, the Honda shop for some Moly 60.
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Yes, the moly 60 will dry up and leave only a very, very thin coating on the spline teeth which will provide the necessary friction reduction for sliding. I *used* to put it on "straight" (Moly 60 paste only and no grease) but I found while the Moly60 microscopic particles usually remain, there is nothing there that really inhibits corrosion. Now, I mix about equal parts of the Moly60 paste with a good, sticky red grease that I use for lubing my tractor and implements and put that on. The Moly particles are still there in sufficient quantity to do what they need to do, and the tack red grease sticks around for longer to fight against corrosion. Still have to be sure to not over-apply to avoid soiling the friction disk.
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Glad to hear things aren't looking as grim.
Just did my splines again as I was 3/4 of the way there. They seemed dry as well. I estimate about 6k on them... fortunately no corrosion though.
As for clutch-less shifting... as you've found out it must be done without load on the transmission. You can do this on a running bike by preloading the shifter and flicking the throttle shut. Not that it's a great idea. Clutches are cheaper than transmissions.
With the transmission out the gears should shift pretty easily given some gentle turning. Seems wrong that you need extra leverage on the shift lever.
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Seems wrong that you need extra leverage on the shift lever.
I will add that the long lever itself is no longer attached, just the stub that was about 1-2 inches long that the lever attaches to.
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I will add that the long lever itself is no longer attached, just the stub that was about 1-2 inches long that the lever attaches to
and I should have figured since the transmission is out of the bike [smiley=embarassed.gif]
On a whim... how is the speedo cable? They will make a "zing" when they quit.
You said you "decided" to pull off the road. A blown clutch would make the decision for you. An ailing transmission might make some nasty noises before dying completely. It's possible you spun a bearing... but it might be worth it to check the easy-to-reach and cheap (relatively) speedo cable before you dig further... if you haven't done that already.