The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: soliecirc on March 29, 2013, 03:40:02 AM
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Inspired by the "valve cover sealing" thread I decided it was time to stop letting my leaky valve cover dictate my choice of footwear and actually do something to prevent the oil from dripping onto my left shoe every time I ride.
I ordered some "three bond" and figured I would just "plug" up the leaky spot. Thought this would be the best route for my novice level of wrenching skills. Somehow found a link posted to a YouTube video of the guy in New Hampshire doing a valve adjustment on a r100. Dove in, bought a torque wrench and the measurement shim thingys and went for it. Just removing the covers was a big step into the unknown for me.
I followed the steps in the video but also relied on the clymer manual.
After finding TDC as indicated by OT WHILE IN 5th gear, I adjusted the intake clearance to .10mm and exhaust clearance to .20mm on one side of the bike. Rotated the wheel until I found OT in the little window and did repeated the clearance settings on other side. (For the most part)
1-After rotating the wheel a few revolutions I found that if one side was at the proper clearances, the other side is WAY off. There is a large gap. Is that correct?
2-one of the lock nuts doesn't adjust properly, must be damaged, so I can't set the clearance to exactly what it should be. It is just "closed" or rather, the two are touching no matter what part of the cycle or revolutuion its on. Is this a major problem or not the end of the world?
3- I put it all back together to see if it would start and it did. Couldn't tell if it sounded right or extra loud. I felt extra sensitive to every noise because one, it was 11:30pm and was paranoid about bothering neighbors and a sleeping wife and two, first time doing anything like that and was concerned for complete failure of bike. Let it idle for 1 minute and found left side was warm and right side was cold. Is that normal?
4-took covers off and fair amount of oil came out of both sides. Noticed that the left side kept dripping well after everything was shut down. Will it stop or could that eventually fill up the entire cover once sealed properly?
Thanks for any and all input!
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Hello !
Your valves should keep the .10 and .20 gap when cold no matter how many revolution you put on the motor.
So you'd better redo the valve clearance job another time to correct this.
One cylinder staying cold indicate that this one is not working enough (I bet it is the one with the wrong clearance ?) So again, redo the job...
Oil dripping from the rocker arm assembly shows that theses get oiled well. That's good. And no, the valve cover won't fill up as the oil will return back to the sump (some will stay in the cover, but it is a very small volume).
The valve adjustment is made with a special screw and a locking nut. Both are with a fine thread, well hardened and can be damaged if you put too much torque on the locking nut. I suggest you buy a new screw and nut and change them before they strip down much further.
I do not think they are this expensive.
Do not bother to change the four of them. Only the one which is experiencing a problem. Normally, they should last for the life of the bike.
Hope this helps.
P.S. the only thing to know about valve clearance job is to know how to use a wrench. So not so difficult and very useful skill to master for the performance of the engine. Keep on !
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If you have no clearance between the valve tip and the rocker arm when it is cold, don't run the engine until you get this fixed .
When the engine gets to operating temperature, that valve may be open a bit, not a good thing for a valve .
There is oil supplied to the rocker arms when it is running, so oil will drip out of the lower ends .
The oil that lubricates the rocker arms, goes back to the oil sump by way of the push rod tubes, so the rocker box area, does not fill up with oil .
As goergesgiralt said, if a cylinder is cold, it's not firing .
Remove the adjuster that won't adjust properly and post a picture of it, maybe we can see what the problem is .
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My following comment is just slightly off-center to your valve adjustment adventure:
Park the bike on the centerstand anytime you're off the machine for more than a few minutes. This will assist in draining the valve train oil back into the sump.
Check the engine oil level. Overfilling can lead to minor start-up issues such as excessive smoke. Quite a few Airhead owners keep the oil level slightly below the 'full' mark on the stick. be sure you confirm oil levels with the dipper cap unscrewed and resting on the lip of the filler hole.
Do replace the valve adjust hardware; both nuts and the threaded adjustor screw. Suggest you park the bike until this is accomplished as there is a certain amount of risk involved operating the bike with questionable lash hardware and adjustment.
You are fortunate to live near an Airhead guru. Forum member Mike Valenti also resides in Sandy Eggo. Find him. Take quality barbecue with you. ::)
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Monte ... you're too kind. Not sure if I'm qualified as a guru, just a lover of the machine and someone who has learned through many mistakes.
Sol,
Those adjusters can be a little tricky sometimes and some tappet adjuster movement can happen when trying to secure the locking nut. Give me a hollar, if the bike is running why don't you swing by the house and we can go through the process together in the shop. I'm in Mission Hills right next to Old Town. Next weekend? Or if you don't want to ride the bike maybe I can swing by your place. Pretty tied up this weekend but am more than happy to help if I can.
As previously mentioned; the oil dripping is a good thing, not to worry about that.
Send me a PM
-Mike V.
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I just knew that the mention of good barbecue would awaken Mike V. ;D
Get yourself down to Lockhart and let Mike and I know when. BTW, 'ol Bengt Phorqs retired this week from Hunt Oil Co in Dallas, so weekdays are now like weekends for both of us.
Our mantra: Every evening is Friday Night. Every day is Saturday.
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Monte,
Not to divert the thread but the tentative plans are to be in Bulverde - Lockhart sometime the first or second week of June. Smitty's, Blacks, Kreitz here we come. Then on to the Carolina's.
I won't pass through without giving you and Mike a shout.
-Mike V.
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Thanks for the replies. Bike is parked and will remain that way. Mike, when is the next tech day in San Diego. I can coordinate trailering my bike down from Escondido to a tech day.
If there isn't a tech day anytime soon I would be happy to provide a feast from Phil's BBQ if you came up is way sometime next week.
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Quoted"The valve adjustment is made with a special screw and a locking nut. Both are with a fine thread, well hardened and can be damaged if you put too much torque on the locking nut. I suggest you buy a new screw and nut and change them before they strip down much further"
Priced this out at bmw Escondido and it was $23. The guy said the screw or threads may be salvageable. I wait for the experts (mike and his crew) to check it out and make the call
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Soliecirc -
Also, for your information/education on airheads - the pistons on the left and right both go in toward Bottom Dead Center and out to Top Dead Center at the same time. But, they are 180 degrees out of phase, so when one side is on the top of the compression stroke, the other side is on the top of the exhaust stroke. This is why one side will/should have both valves closed (and the .1mm and .2mm gaps for the valve lash) while the other side will have the exhaust valve pushed down/open. Similar thing happens on the intake/power stroke.
Once you understand the valve sequence thing you can watch the vallve gear going through its motions and get very close to the OT mark and know which side is the one that should be adjusted at that time.
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Ok. Not ready to give up on this. Answer this for me. After I put in 5th gear, find OT, set clearances on intake and exhaust on right side, how far should I rotate the back wheel?
Until I see OT again for the first time or a full 360 degrees?
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Until you see OT again.
BTW 360 ° on the rear wheel on five is a *lot* of engine revolution.
When the crankshaft make a whole turn (from OT to OT again) the camshaft make half a turn (1:2 ratio).
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You can also watch the valve train action as you rotate the engine. Spark plugs are out, right? Turns much easier when you don't fight compression.
With valves set correctly, there's just enough clearance -with no valve spring pressure on the rocker- to feel a wee bit o' wiggle by moving the rocker arm up and down. The pushrod can also be rotated easily. These little clues help confirm the valve is fully closed. Obviously, you still want to see OT in the window as a final confirmation.
Some Airhead owners will disconnect the battery negative cable, remove the engine's front cover and use an Allen wrench in the rotor bolt to rotate the engine. Several mild arguments can result when folks recommend this technique. I'm just saying...
BTW, If you are fortunate enough to have Mike V run up to make a BMW house call on you, I'd encourage you have all the correct parts on hand. No one could really help you if they're working with boogered up bits.
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Ok. Not ready to give up on this. Answer this for me. After I put in 5th gear, find OT, set clearances on intake and exhaust on right side, how far should I rotate the back wheel?
Until I see OT again for the first time or a full 360 degrees?
Are you sure you have the OT Mark for the RH side.
I start on the LH side rotate wheel while watching for the intake valve start to open then start looking for the OT mark. Go to RH side and watch for the same and go back to and watch for the OT mark.
If you set both valves at the same OT mark one of the cylinders will be off at TOP DEAD CYLINDER.
Don
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how far should I rotate the back wheel?
It's an awful lot easier if you don't use the wheel at all.
Disconnect the battery negative lead, take off the front cover, remove the plugs and rotate the engine slowly clockwise with an Allen key on the alternator rotor bolt. One turn of the Allen key = 1 revolution of the crankshaft.
Lots of people do use the back wheel to rotate the engine but it's not easy to spot the timing marks flying past.
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I started over. Started with left side where the intake spring was out. Set clearance to .20mm. Exhaust adjuster would not go to correct clearance because of suspected damaged thread. Should I order a new piece? Is it ok having clearance permanently closed? I think it's been that way for a few years? If I can't get the adjuster nuts off how can the new piece be installed?
Rotated back wheel while in top gear, spark plugs out, slowly until I got to OT again. Not a full rotation of the tire and definitely did not pass any other OTs.
Set clearances on rt side exactly to .20mm exhaust and .10mm intake. Rotated back wheel several revolutions and checked clearances. They were correct.
when the rt side clearances are correct, the left are closed. When the left side are correct, the right side are closed. Is that true? One side open and the other side closed?
PHOTOS ATTACHED
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Went ahead and ordered the $23 screw
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If you can't force the nut off you will have t cut the adjuster. And the clearance will be less on the other side since the lifter are in a different place on the cam.
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Is it ok having clearance permanently closed?
Absolutely not as you risk burning the valve.
If I can't get the adjuster nuts off how can the new piece be installed?
You should be able to screw the adjuster right up through the rocker until there is a gap under the nut. Then devise some means of turning the nut while at the same time pulling on it.
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[smiley=thud.gif]
Wow, I've been making this much more of a chore than it need be. I do use the rear wheel and I stand behind it to make the larger rotation. When the intake has cycled I then move to the left side so as to sight the OT mark. I grab the spokes of the snowflake wheel and bump it along.
This procedure wasn't so difficult when I took the plugs out; but then I read on a revered website that they don't like to remove the plugs for fear of allowing debris access. As you can imagine it is very tricky doing it like that from the side, unless of course you have strong arms or really stink poor compression. On a many occasions I have to scoot to the back to give the rear wheel twitch or two. Doing it that way I have blown past the mark and have to cycle around again.
I think I will just start removing the plugs again. It was much easier when i did it that way.
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Air4, Here's the R65 Forum-Valve Adjustment Tip o' The Day...
Avoid using your leaf blower to clean out the shop while spark plugs are removed for valve lash adjustments.
I've seen some nasty garages but have yet to see debris tumble from the ceiling and fall into an open cylinder. The "revered website" author should consider laying a shop towel over the spark plug holes if he is concerned about rat droppings falling from his rafters. :D Or bats in his belfry.
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montmil: True true.
To be honest I had to go back and check to confirm their assertions. I found that I had miswrote. By not removing the plugs there is less chance that carbon can fall in-between the seats, thereby throwing off the adjustments.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if my technique created more of an error than carbon would...
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Soli,
Some excellent Tech Day events coming up with some great airhead help available very soon...
April 13, 2013
La Mesa Tech Day
c/o Joe McClung
(619) 464-6386
(619) 346-8244
4565 Glen St.
La Mesa, CA 91941
May 4, 2013
Stoner's Tech Day
c/o Larry "Stoner" Stonestreet
(951) 813-1704
39628 Avenida Miguel Oeste
Murietta, CA 92563
Try to make one of these - these are some great guys and gals. You'll get some great help and make some valuable new friends. I would suggest calling ahead to get things lined up for available parts, etc. Stoner has enough spare parts to assemble 3 or 4 complete bikes.
-Mike V.
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I cut off and replaced the damaged bolt preventing me from setting the correct clearances.
Pictured---
1- pushrod came lose during removal. It almost seems as though it is not seated correctly now. Is it possible that it came out from where it needs to be and should be inserted correctly? Or am I just being paranoid? The "ball and socket" point of connection where the pushrod touches with the bolt doesn't seem to be as flush as it is on the other 3 areas this occurs.
2 - the nut was damaged so bought a zinc replacement at Home Depot. I will order the actual nut from bmw but will this replacement nut be ok in the meantime?
Last picture is the cut bolt and damaged nut
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... pushrod came lose during removal. It almost seems as though it is not seated correctly now. Is it possible that it came out from where it needs to be and should be inserted correctly? Or am I just being paranoid? The "ball and socket" point of connection where the pushrod touches with the bolt doesn't seem to be as flush as it is on the other 3 areas this occurs.
Withdraw the pushrod and inspect both ends. They should be round, smooth and shiny. The pushrod should roll easily on a flat surface -confirming it is not bent. Inspect the rocker arm socket using a mirror and flashlight. It, too, should be free of any damage. Make sure the pushrod ball end is seated in the cam follower socket. You should "feel" the correct fit.
If the engine has been operated with way too much lash gap, there could be the potential for some damage, maybe. Same concern with 'no lash'. Your inspection is important.
Replace that Chinese nut immediately. It is not the same grade/strength as required.
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Tip: Once you get the hang of the valve setting a quick and dirty way to see which side is TDC on compression is to reach in and see if both the pushrods will spin with your fingers. I back that up by seeing if there is play in the valve lifters. I measure the clearences then I set the valves last.
Tip: Always check the clearences of your valves before you set them. Write these numbers down. This way you will see if the dreaded exhaust valve recession is showing its ugly head. But that is another story...
Tip: There is an unofficial clearance between the valve rocker and the posts. It's about .002". If this gets too big the the valve rocker clunks up and down against the posts make a disconcerting noise. This will cause you to buy the largest set of plyers you have ever seen! But These plyers will look really impressive on your pegboard wall! ::) (Whoagh! Whoagh! Whoagh!...)
Good luck! [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]