The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Air4Life on February 01, 2013, 09:10:52 PM
-
I'm curious as to how many people do away with the environmental apparatus in one form or the other?
to date, mine is intact.
I spoke with someone who is known to be knowledgeable, and he strongly recommend doing this.
-
There is nothing to gain by removing it .
The only problem it will cause, is if the rubber lines from the carb to the valves develop a leak, or if one of the diaphragms in the valves fail .
I had a diaphragm fail and couldn't figure out where my vacuum leak was .
I then removed the system and have not seen any difference in the performance or any engine running issues, it's been off of the bike since '83 .
-
Yanked it. Cleans up the visual. No performance difference, except for the weight loss.
-
I ripped the system out during my rebuild. Added complexity, no performance gain. Bubye!
-
I'd take the system out just to lose a little weight.
Less is more
Come to think of it isn't there a better reason to remove it. Air injection is reckoned to make the exhaust valve run a little hotter and that's definitely something you can do without.
-
Seems like a strong enough consensus is built up here for me. Yes, he mentioned all the things you folks mentioned. The one tantalizing reason was that the exhaust valve received added heat from the added oxygen. Though, his emphasis on the heat was a bit stronger than yours Barry. But that may only be my interpretation of what he said.
I'm sure you've run through these question countless times. I appreciate all your patience.
Thank y'all.
-
Yes perhaps I shouldn't have used the words a "little hotter" Point is that any increase in the exhaust valve temperature is a very bad thing. Makes you wonder if the reputation for valve heads coming off isn't substantially down to this air injection and for me that would be the stand out reason to get rid of it.
Any way you sound convinced.
-
This whole "air injection" system was added by BMW to meet the California Air Resource Board, CARB, standards. Otherwise, the BMW line could not be sold in that state. We all inherited the crap and occasional related reliability issues of the exhaust valves.
Even today, gasoline-powered lawn mowers, power generators, weed whackers, leaf blowers, chain saws, ad infinitum, sold in California must meet CARB standards. Ckeck Sears, Lowes, Home Depot, etc and you'll find yard implement specs that state,"Not for sale in California". You must buy the higher priced Cali items... with, of course, the BMW-ish air system fitted.
And just try dropping a new Chevy 350SB crate motor, with a carburetor, into your early Chevrolet project car. Good luck fighting the DVM on that one. You'll need a few weeks off work dedicated to just standing in line.
[smiley=wall.gif]
-
Where's the EPA on the bike??
Or is it just a US r65 thing??
Thanks
-
Where's the EPA on the bike?
Unsure what you're asking. Are you inquiring as to the US Environmental Protection Agency's "position or governmental stance" on the bike?
-
I think Mr. E wants to know where physically this environemtnal apparatus actually is on the bike. Referring to all the tubing from the air box, vaccum thingy on carb into cylinder etc. I can hardly remember it but I took it off too.
-
Just a North American thing. Air injection was never fitted to UK bikes.
-
Really wasn't the EPA that mandated the Pulse Air System for the BMW motorcycles. We in the USofA can thank the State of California. Thank isn't really the word I'm thinking of.
Here's an excellent photo essay and parts requirements for removal of and plugging the BMW Pulse Air System.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/pulse-air/
-
looks like an EGR setup.
To recirculate the exhaust gasses etc.
Thanks
-
looks like an EGR setup.
To recirculate the exhaust gasses etc.
Thanks
No.
The system "injected" a charge of fresh air into the exhaust port just above the exhaust valve itself. This fresh air, combined with the remnants of the flaming fuel burn, basically, re-ignited the fuel charge for a second time as it passed through the exhaust valve and into the mufflers. This double whammy of fire and heat was what helped create the dreaded exhaust vale head failures and the valve's recession.
A band-aid to sooth one state affected the entire nation. Now days, most all new motorcycles are fitted with some sort of catalytic converter which is Federally mandated.
I often wonder how much air pollution motorcycles contribute versus automobiles and trucks. Recip aircraft engines are exempted from emission control devices as these aircraft are considered to be not a contributing factor to air pollution. Plus, they need to burn leaded avgas to maintain top end lubrication in the valve train. General Aviation is a very minor player in the clean air acts imposed on manufacturers by a one-size fits all gubmint. I believe motorcycles should also be exempted.
Share with me your thoughts.
-
Hello Montmil,
I think you're a bit biased, as I am....
A lot of little drops make the Mississippi ... So every drop saved is a blessing.
But I'm not sure we have to gain a lot trying to make green friendly engines devised very long ago and a minority in the crowd...
I can't tell for USA, but in Europe we have a very large crowd of Diesel engines and this is a huge pollution for the air as they release micro particles of soot in the air. Guess what ? Lobbyist prevent them to be reformed... and forced to use cleaner engines... "will kill the economy"...
The wood stove had had their emission monitored and some makers had to review their entire line in order not to release micro particles in the air.. What is good for stoves (not every house has one... ) is not good for Diesel engines... Go figure :-?
We are too few and too disorganized.
-
I believe motorcycles should also be exempted.
Share with me your thoughts.
Small recommendation, anything 1983 and older should be exempt. ::)
-
In Texas, motorcycles do not have to take a sniffer test. Cars and Pickumups 25+ years and older are also exempt.
The development and growth of fuel-injected motorcycles has done much to produce a "cleaner" exhaust from these New Age motorcycles. We Luddites continue to tweak the mixture screws.
-
In Texas, motorcycles do not have to take a sniffer test. Cars and Pickumups 25+ years and older are also exempt.
I think it's even "better" than that Monte.. my '95 4Runner goes through a different emissions test than the '96 and newer vehicles.. my check engine light can be (is) on and still pass. Even inside city limits!
The smart thing to do is basically what Texas does though.. "new" vehicles should be maintained at the state of the art, with a sunset provision for older vehicles. By their nature there are few enough of them doing few enough miles to not be worth the trouble of testing.
Of course, this is coming from a guy that uses a beer fueled lawnmower instead of gas powered...
-
In the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas, motorcycles are required to pass an emissions test as part of the registration process .
Only way to get around this requirement, is to have collector insurance and historic vehicle license plate, vehicle must be at least 25 model years old to qualify for the plate .
The Arizona Department of Environmental Quality, (ADEQ), petitioned the Federal Environmental Protection Agency, (EPA), to waive the requirement for motorcycles to undergo the emissions test in the two largest metro areas of Arizona, as they found out that motorcycles contributed about .007 % of vehicle emissions, the EPA granted the waiver, but it's still lost somewhere in the state governmental 'red tape' .
-
... Of course, this is coming from a guy that uses a beer fueled lawnmower instead of gas powered...
That's sort of a two-fer love v hate for me, Matt. I hate mowing but love beer.
Wait a minute... Does the beer fuel YOU while you mow? That's definitely my way. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
-
The Arizona Department of Environmental Quality, (ADEQ), petitioned the Federal Environmental Protection Agency, (EPA), to waive the requirement for motorcycles to undergo the emissions test....
Funny the EPA requires DEQ for bikes in Arizona but not here. Frankly, I think it's rediculous making bikes get tested - but maybe that would be the time to ensure they've got mufflers that actually muffle.
Another odd one is there's DEQ testing here in Portland, but not 50 miles south in the state capitol, Salem.
-
That's sort of a two-fer love v hate for me, Matt. I hate mowing but love beer.
Wait a minute... Does the beer fuel YOU while you mow? That's definitely my way.
Depends on how early in the day I'm mowing. Ah.. who am I kidding!?
I'm just anal retentive enough to not want anyone else to cut my grass, they wouldn't do it right. And I use a reel mower, so the only motive force is me. Powered by beer.
-
Depends on how early in the day I'm mowing. Ah.. who am I kidding!?
We've all seen the T-shirt... "BEER! It's not just for breakfast anymore."
Really? A real reel mower. Tiff Green, you got?
-
Another odd one is there's DEQ testing here in Portland, but not 50 miles south in the state capitol, Salem.
Not that odd. Portland has way more people and traffic than Salem. As population goes up, individual freedom goes down. In general -- I can think of primitive nomad societies where you couldn't get away with very much.
-
In this country (UK) cars and motorcycles have to pass a roadworthiness test first after three years, then every year, for ever. Motorcycles don't do the emissions test. In principle, the vehicle must meet the standards in force when it was new. In practice there doesn't seem to be a detailed list of standards and it's mostly up to the tester. Some are easier than others. It's worked ok so far. But I suspect it may get toughened up in the future. Fingers crossed!
-
There has been a recent change in the UK requirements for an MOT inspection. Vehicles built before 1st Jan 1960 are now exempt.
Only another 19 years to go before my 79 qualifies and that's only if it becomes a rolling date.
-
The nature of Man, Woman, and their politics -- I just don't want to see my valves get cooked. :(
About a year before I turned 50 I started receiving AARP in the mail. I thought to myself, great, lodging discounts and more. Yippee! Then while reading the now capsized Wall Street Journal and its comments section, it turns out that AARP is a Democrat favoring organisation. I had no idea. The comment contributor went on to suggest some other organisation that is Republican focused. I thought to myself, isn't there a organisation that is looking out for me?
-
I thought to myself, isn't there a organisation that is looking out for me?
Yea.. you. Maybe close family?
Yes Monte, a real reel mower.. I love it. No engine to maintain, quiet, and my lot is only a fifth of an acre. My mix... eh, it's mostly weeds. But I've put down some buffalo seed and some zoysia seed. I don't water most of it. Why pay for water that makes the grass grow so you have to cut it more?!? The reel mower doesn't handle tall stuff very well, so you have to be very consistent, especially during the growing season.
-
Why pay for water that makes the grass grow so you have to cut it more?
Exactly! Hey, Sweetheart... Come read Matt's post.
-
Yea.. you. Maybe close family?
That's not as comforting as one would think.
Any how, I've got so many deferred items on this bike. It will be off the road for a while once I get settled.
-
The pulse air injection system also makes the exhaust crackle and pop on decel or downhill closed throttle riding. It wasn't so bad on my 82 LS before I removed it, but I still noticed a difference with the ports plugged up. I had (still have actually, need to sell the darn thing) an 86 Kawi VN750 with the same type of system. That thing really got to popping on downhill. When I first bought the bike and ran it up to about 95mph before coming off the throttle, it made one hell of a boom. Women and children ran for cover, birds took to the skies, the National Guard were on their way...
Also, the right hand BMW pulse air hose stops the bowl from dropping off the right hand carb. IMO, thats a good enough reason to get rid of the stupid thing.
-
I have a set of "custom made" caps for the head connections waiting for "work on bike" weather.
-
I have a set of "custom made" caps for the head connections waiting for "work on bike" weather.
Your local dealer has all you'll need for a custom job:
Two oil drain plugs (07 11 9 919 117) and two oil drain plug crush washers (07 11 9 963 252).
-
Monte,
I've heard that sometimes the nipple that goes into the head can really sieze in place, which is why some people just remove the air pipe and cap it as opposed to pulling the nipple and plugging the hole.
My nipples were alarmingly loose with <6k on the clock... but let's keep this civil ;)
-
Monte,
I've heard that sometimes the nipple that goes into the head can really sieze in place, which is why some people just remove the air pipe and cap it as opposed to pulling the nipple and plugging the hole.
My nipples were alarmingly loose with <6k on the clock... but let's keep this civil ;)
I, too, have read n' heard about the possible seizure of the air injection bits. On both my R65s, '81 and '83, I first shot 'em with PB Blaster and kept them wet for two days. Hint: Newspapers under the bike caught the drips.
Later, I put a socket on the fittings, said a prayer to the gawds of BMW and pulled. All four -remember, two bikes- came out clean.
Sure, there's a possibility of seized threads -road salts, corrosion, etc- but I sorta filed away the well-traveled "seizure issue" as one of those... I know a guy whose buddy had a friend that knew a neighbor with a BMW who... blah, blah, blah. As always, YMMV.
-
My 83 R65 has the air injection in place and I have none of the popping and crackling on on closed throttle deceleration. I left mine on because if I ever decide to sell the bike, it might be required, who knows what is down the pike. What I do hear is the pocketa pocketa at idle, which is funnier than annoying. Reminds me of the movie, The Man In The White Suit, which if you haven't seen, you should. In my opinion, a properly maintained and tuned engine is the key to reducing smog, that and not sitting in traffic...
-
Well that wasn't terribly difficult. I didn't quite understanding what all the golf tee and silicone business was about...
The original bike supplied air t that connects the two carbs and mounts to the front of the airbox was easily closed off with a loop of the small hose piece that had been used to attach the left valve to it in the first place. [smiley=zzz.gif] The others are junk and if needed would be replaced.
I'd like to think its now running better than ever before.
By the way, I replaced my intake rubber grommets (hoses) so that people weren't thinking I was neglecting it. But in my opinion those parts would have lasted another 10 years without a problem.
Learning to use the features of my phone. Its a 9 second file of my r65 making moonshine: http://youtu.be/mxhs0YapsTY
Oh, and as always, thanks. [smiley=beer.gif] [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]
-
Nicely played, AirFour.
-
I just removed mine. Talked to friends who did likewise. I just don't need more things to clutter up the bike. Since it was easy...why not(?)
-
You can use the same connector filled with solder.
-
Silver solder or a softer, garden variety? The upcoming ride from Eagle Pass to Austin's MotoGP could get interesting.
-
Yea, thats interesting to use solder. Doesnt it melt around 4-500 degrees? I think its prob safe, but one of these days I will have to aim my temp reader at the area of that plug when the bike is hot. Im sure it gets up there because it idle the exhaust pipe at the head is around 220 deg.
-
Nothing you can't fix with a trash can. I toss them immediately. Bikes sound better and the headpipes don't run as hot. And look less cluttered. Plus the bikes look less cluttered.
-
Hi guys
I don't know what metal the plugs are, but if you use plumber's welding (the stuff they use for brazing copper ) you should be safe temperature wise...
The only problem you may face is that the plug could distort because of the high temperature the welding cause...
-
When I had my (2010) Bonneville and used to frequent the Triumph twins forum, one of the most popular topics was disabling the AI system.
Preventing early blueing of the exhaust headers (heat) was one of the quoted advantages.
So, it seems the modern Triumph classics have a similar system. I never got around to investigating this before I traded the Bonny for a F650GS year ago.
However here is a link to one such topic on the Triumph forums in case any of the disabling principles might be similar.
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/165741-ridiculously-easy-ai-disabling.html#post1814722