The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: oz_johnno on January 21, 2013, 04:26:15 AM
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Greetings,
I tee'd up a time with a local member of my bmw club for him to help me change my timing chain on beryl (black 86 R65). we marked the timing chain and took of the timing chain. we then had a bugger of a time putting the new chain back on, but we did it. I left the timing cover of so I could check the timing but when I hit the starter button, the bean can started jumping up and down !!
So I took the bean can back off, made sure it meshed int the off center lugs and kicked her in the guts again....... this time the bean can didnt jump up and down, but it still wouldnt start.
we took the plugs out and yes there was spark there......
Im wondering what the problem could be?
Do you think I would have done damage having the bean can lugs not being meshed the first time?
what do you guys reckon?
OZ
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Do you think I would have done damage having the bean can lugs not being meshed the first time?
I doubt if it completely destroyed the lugs as they are quite substantial. It's not even possible to fit the bean wrong because the drive is offset. The worst you can do is fit it loose and it sounds as if that's what you did.
Might be a timing problem either ignition or valves.
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Hello !
Actually, the lugs could be centered and the can installed anyway ! As we have one ignition spark per revolution (double output coil), the position of the can versus the cam shaft is irrelevant.
I cant see two problems :
1) the timing chain is not properly installed and you've a teeth out of alignment
2) the bean can was far from the timing point during your tests.
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I rang 'old mate' this morning and he seems to be convinced that there is something wrong with the bean can !! He has it pulled apart all over his work bench this morning.
when we ran the engine we could hear no crunching or banging sounds as valves smashed into pistons, so I doubt it would be that.....
heres hoping.
OZ
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Unless the bouncing around dislodged something in the bean can, cam timing is the logical first place to look. Since there was spark - I very much doubt the problem resides with the bean can.
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Yeah I reckon its a problem with the timing. In the haynes manual both the crankshaft and the camshaft pullys had thumping great lines on them to line up.
I saw a mark on the Camshaft (bottom?) pulley but not on the Crankshaft so I didnt have anything to to line up with. what we did was put the camshaft mark at 12 oclock and marked with liquid paper.
What I'm thinking is we have the spark firing at bottom dead centre.......
Comments?
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I don't see how you could have the spark at BDC on both cylinders. Because the beancan is driven off the end of the camshaft and because the offeset drive means you can't fit the bean can wrong then if the ignition timing is miles out so is the cam timing.
If you have a degree wheel you could try and check the cam timing. It's not an easy thing to do accurately but if the timing is miles out it should be obvious.
Inlet opens 16 deg BTDC
Inlet closes 44 deg ABDC
Exhaust opens 56 deg BBDC
Exhaust closes 4 deg ATDC
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I guess the big question now is how much damage have I done turning the engine over with the timing out of spec.
when I turned it over it didnt seem to make any noises out of the ordinary that I could hear......... do you think this would indicate that the motor was still ok ??
Cheers
John
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The primary concern is having contact between the valves and piston top! With the spark plugs out, carefully rotate the engine by hand and "feel" for any contact. You will definitely know as the engine will be stopped from rotating. Be Careful...
The small timing mark on the crankshaft is hidden by the sprocket. If the sprocket is removed, there's no real issue in lining up the crank n' cam sprocket marks.
I'm trusting to my memory here so hope if I'm speaking out of school someone will chime in...
Carefully rotate the engine so that the right-side piston is at exactly TDC. The dot on the larger camshaft sprocket should be at 12 o'clock. Again, IIRC from my last timing chain replacement adventure.
There's an excellent lesson here, lads. Before pulling off that old timing chain -and with the cam sprocket's timing "dot" at high noon- mark the location of the corresponding crankshaft sprocket tooth. Paint, Sharpie, whatever.
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I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as engine damage goes. There would have been metal to metal contact sounds and even a refusal to rotate completely. Do as Monte says and check if the marks line up.
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*phew*
we did a compression test with the following results
LHS = 50psi
RHS = 90 PSI
not good :(
Looks like she could do with a head job (couldnt we all?)
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Was the compression test done with the carbs off or at least with the throttles fully open and the pistons held up ?
If the inlets tracts are not totally unobstructed to let the engine breath freely you will get an invalid low result.
It's still possible that out of spec valve timing could be the cause of low compression. Think about the effect of inlet valves closing late ?
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The last thing changed was the cam chain. I assume it ran fine before that?
Logic and proper troubleshooting technique dictates the poor running (or non running) condition was caused by the last action taken.
So now we know it won't start because of low compression on one side. So? ::)
We really want to know about the timing marks and whether they align.
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I have given up and had the bike trailered to a specialist bmw shop. I asked the guy if he could give me a diagnosis so I could get an idea as to how much the guy is gunna gouge me :(
have read up on it and given the info I now know I would have gone about things a different way
Oh well, a lesson brought is a lesson taught my dad used to say........
OZ
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We all want to know what the final outcome is, Oz. Keep us posted, will ya?
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yeah Guys I will let you know how it goes.
what I should have done
1) remove alternator and bean can (marking bean can with paint marker)
2)remove the timing cover
3)TURNED THE MOTOR BY HAND until OT pops up in the timing window
4)remove tensioner and guide
5)marked the position of both sprockets with the paint marker.
6) remove the old master link and connect the new chain to the old.
7) Rotate the engine so that the new chain replaces the old.
8) Disconnect the old chan and install the new master link
9)reassemble.
10) Turn motor over by hand to feel for any mechanical contact
I see now where I went wrong, next time will be better'er. I hope this doesn't cost me too much as I have a rabid ex suing me for half a house.... This was the last thing I needed
OZ
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My personal recommendations and revisions to your timing chain adventure list...
A-1: Remove battery ground cable. There is always hot power at the diode board.
A-3: Confirm cam sprocket "dot' is at 12 o'clock and right-side piston is at TDC.
A-6: Stuff toweling into all crankcase openings to prevent the timing chain master link bits -particularly the "flying fish"- from swimming in the crankcase.
A-7: I would definitely council not to attempt to rotate the engine to draw the new chain around the sprockets. Odds are strong that a tooth could be skipped during the engine rotation exercise and you've then effectively knockered the cam timing.
A-8: See A-7.
Just my $0.02 worth of experiences. YMMV ;)
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Thanks Mont.
I will give the Guy I sent the bike to about a week to diagnose the problem. I imagine it wouldnt take that long, but when I spoke to him he mentioned that he had only just gotten back from holidays......
OZ
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I don't know how well this works, but a coworker that has been working on motorcycles for about 55 years told me this trick .
Round off, or bevel the pins on the old master link, insert the link on the front side of the chain to get the links lined up, then put the new master link in from the rear, shouldn't have to fight to get it lined up .
Never tried it, so again no idea how it would work .
All I can remember, was that it was a pain to get the master link started when I replaced the timing chain on my '81 R65 15 years ago .
I saw this a few years ago and wondered if it would be of any help with the masterlink .
http://www.mikesxs.net/product/35-0130.html
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We all want to know what the final outcome is, Oz. Keep us posted, will ya?
Just got word..... the timing chain was only 1 tooth out. The guy is gouging me $285, which I will give him next wed.
Oh well, a lesson brought is a lesson taught :-[
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I guess it could've been worse, OzJohnno.
When you take a partially disassembled and non-running bike to a mechanic and tell him, "Me and a mate worked on it." Well, he's really out of the information loop and under your gun to make it right.
Don't know what the hourly labor charge is in Oz but 'round here it's anywhere from $90.00USD on up. Cheaper some places but not many you'd trust. My guess is he's charging you for about three hours of his knowledge and skill set.
Bottom line, he had you by the short hairs but most likely treated you fairly. Maybe go easier on the wrench twister. He has expenses to pay, too. And he did fix it. [smiley=2cents.gif]
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+1 ! It seems fair to me. He had to find the fault, then fix it, then reassemble everything and check for perfect operation, so ......
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Thanks guys,
'round these parts (always wanted to say that) you find they charge between $100 & 120 bucks an hour for a mechanic.
I wasn't going to blow he guy up, my disappointment was more that the job didn't go well.
As I said, I got a rabid ex wife who is coming at me for half the house, so it couldn't have come at a worse time.
OZ
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I feel for you - my divorce days were black ones indeed! But all is not black - things will improve and eventually get much better than before. Trust me! So do what you can to focus on uplifting things and stuff that makes you happy. For me, I immersed myself in my bikes - I worked a day a week at a BMW MC wrecker, fixed other's bikes, fiddled with mine and rode as much as possible. One other thing that helped a lot was taking long walks each morning. It was magic! Hard to describe, but I could start out with three or four conflicting emotions - anger, grief, wanting to do bodily harm, etc, - and come back completely cheerful and be fine all day. Pure magic!
Yeah, there will be mistakes made and wasted time, money and resources - but focus on getting through this because on the other side is happier times.
By the way - not to make you wrong - but you shoulda listened to us about the cam timing being off... :-/
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God love you, Spokes... Dispensing psychological care from the handlebars of a BMW. The doctor is on the bike.
I've been to the Bid D myself and I don't mean Dallas. Now where's that damned expensive t-shirt?
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I reckon riding bikes for so many years has helped keep me sane. Bikes put balance back in your life like nothing else.
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I kind of felt like there was a piece missing from me while Beryl has been gone.
But while we are talking things philosophical/pyschological, I have been reading zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. In the book, the main character talks 3 types of thought, the classical, romantic and quality. He saw the motorcycle representing the nexus of classical thought (the understanding of the inner workings), romantic thought (the way you feel when you ride), coming together to form Quality.
This to me was like a bolt out of the blue as it explained to me why I liked to ride the R65 more than my Ducati 2010 multistrada 1200s even though my friends say the multistrada is a much better bike. I do most of the classical (maintenance) work myself. Add this to the romantic (theres somthing about the old R's that speaks to a bloke and says 'this is what motorcycling is about'. That and the fact that I inherited the bike from my dad) and together they equal QUALITY.
The multistrada is a black box. I hand it to someone else when the lcd screen starts flashing 'maintenance due'. In terms of classical + romantic = Quality, I'm missing one of the terms of the equation, so things dont quite add up
This has been a learning curve, but I shall have another crack at the timing chain when it is due once more.
OZ
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I need to do this to my bike as well.
$400 was the quote for the labor and parts from
http://bavarianmotorcycleworkshop.com/
cycle shops here in utah are really sparce
i was going to order my parts from huckys in flordia, hopefully i can do this myself, i would like to save $$, the parts cost around $100. But i have never done something like this, i figure that as long as i mark the teeth correctly, i should be fine right? im going to follow the manual i have on the bike
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Does your $400 estimate include a new crankshaft sprocket and bearing? If this is the first chain replacement, it may be a good idea to replace the smaller of the two sprockets. The cam sprocket seems to last like, oh, forever. So the four C-notes doesn't sound outta line.
I purchased my timing chain kit from Motobins. Current price is $55.00USD. There are a few bits in the kit that many folks overlook when ordering one piece at a time.
Part No.10160 http://www.motobins.co.uk Good photo of all the required materials.
Also Part No.10402 Bearing $13.40USD & Part No.25300 Crankshaft sprocket $40.20, if required.
That will leave around $300 for labor; not too far off from Oz Johnno's tab... except I think he already had the parts.
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Now where's that damned expensive t-shirt?
Don't tell me she took that too!!!!! :o
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mmmm didnt know about the need to do the 'outrigger bearing' and crank sprocket. I will ask the guy who did the repairs (he is a professional) about the requirement for this. I brought all the parts in the motobins cam chain kit (chain, tensioner etc) and that was all.
Oh crap, not more money !!
OZ
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I have been reading zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.
I read it every year or two. It's a book for life to be read again when you've fogotten enough to make it worth while.
I love his steady calm, thinking approach to maintenance. The concept of gumption hissing out when thing go wrong is so real and familiar that we all must have felt it at times. I guess getting the cam chain one tooth out would have been one of those moments. The book is a great lesson for working on the bike and for recognising when it's time to stop and think.
The one aspect of the book which dates it in terms of awareness of the environment is the way he dumps oil out of the bike just about anywhere. The frequency of oil changes is obsessive which on it's own is environmentally unfriendly without leaving a trail of it across America. Oil would have been cheap and that approach to oil disposal musn't have been unusual back then.
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Oh crap, not more money !! OZ
Steady on, Mate.
The crankshaft sprocket should be examined for excessive wear. If you've had chain-drive motorcycles, you may have experienced worn sprockets from dirt ridin' days. Sharp, pointy and/or "hooked" teeth are a visual indicator that it's time to renew both chain and sprockets.
Comparing your cam chain sprocket teeth to a photo of a new sprocket can be helpful. See the Motobins site for snaps.
The smaller crankshaft sprocket rotates twice for every one turn of the cam shaft sprocket. Simply put, the cam sprocket has half the mileage as the crank's sprocket.
Proper lubrication and a functional cam chain tensioner can keep sprockets and bearing happy for 100,000 miles or better. You can handle the kilometers conversion.
Do you recall if your cam chain was making a death rattle sound before you replaced it? Usually heard with throttle roll-off during deceleration. That can be a sign of a worn out tensioner shoe, spring and chain guide.
Another tip: Worn cam chains, sprockets and tensioners can sometimes be diagnosed by observing a jumpy image when using a timing light on the flywheel marks.
Certainly not trying to scare the crap outta ya, OzJohnno. Your ex's attorney will do that quite nicely. [smiley=thumbdown.gif]
Yo, Barry... I'm sure a few others will also 'fess up, but it was quite common back in the day to pour your used oils along your backyard fence line as a weed and grass control. Less yard work left more time for riding and other much more meaningful activities. Oh, and hearing protection was for sissies. Truth.
I wear hearing aids as a sign of a life well spent. ;D
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I have a mate (he has 3 bikes, so a practical man) who to this day paints his sheds and fences with used engine oil. Apparently it makes a great free preservative if you like dark brown. Probably drips on the ground and controls the weeds too.
I tell him I also knew a mechanic who contracted and died from liver cancer due to daily exposure to old engine oil so perhaps it's best not to bath in the stuff too often.
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...I also knew a mechanic who contracted and died from liver cancer due to daily exposure to old engine oil so perhaps it's best not to bath in the stuff too often.
Whew! And here I was thinking liver problems were a result of over indulgence in adult beverages.
Thanks, Doc Barry. This one's for you... [smiley=beer.gif]
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montmil >> Phew, I feel I have dodged a bit of a bullet there as my 86 model R65 has only a shade over 34,000 original miles on it.
It was brought into the country as a 'jap import' and my dad, didn't ride it much. By the time it got to me a shade over 12 months ago it only had 40,000km (25,000) original miles on it.
How do I know they are original miles? well I took her along to the local BMW club coffee morning and everyone who looked at it judged that because of the overall condition and the lack of wear on the rear brake peddle, the milage was original.
When my mate took the timing chain cover off, it would have been the first time it had been off since it left the Baveria Motor Werks factory in 1986.
As far as a 'death rattle' is concerned, there was none, and it was only after it was pointed out to me that I managed to hear a slight timing chain noise..... so better to get in earlier than later I thought.
Beryl is special and I will own her while my arse still points to the ground
OZ
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Recently came up on the Airheads list.
Thought it appropriate to earlier sentiments in this thread.
(http://)
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Recently came up on the Airheads list.
Thought it appropriate to earlier sentiments in this thread.
(http://)
Nice one.........
I got beryl home this afternoon. I had to get some help from my stalker/girlfriend Sarah, but its all ok. I 'thanked' her senseless this arvo.
Everyone happy
OZ