The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: flybot on September 04, 2012, 01:33:04 PM
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I got my dads old R65 back in Sep of last year. It had been stored in a garage in socal. I had it shipped from Los Angeles to Kentucky. Dad bought the R65 in 1983 and apparently parked it in '86 with a half tank of gas. He's sure he drove it longer than three years, but I dont think so. It has 6400 miles on it.
I started tearing it down a few months ago. Besides needing all new fluids, seals, carb rebuilds, grease, etc, the frame needed to be sanded down and repainted. The body work is in great condition. I havnt had too many problems really. The main problem areas have been:
Engine- Had a hard time getting it out of frame. Went in much easier.
Fuel cap- rust welded to tank. It got destroyed. Found a new/old one on ebay $$$
Fuel tank- 27 year old gas smells wierd. All the coating in the tank is chunking off and light rust in tank. I took it to a shop and they think they can do an acid treatment and not trash the paint. So far so good, but they are not done yet.
Front Brake- Having a hard time sourcing a brake line. Mine is the single Brembo caliper, with a single hose to the master cylinder.
Having a hard time sourcing the correct new master cylinder. The brake fluid had turned to crystals in the cylinder.
I found a great way to clean some of the metal work to look like new. I used a cleaner for concrete driveways that is a light acid. It made the wheels, fork lowers, transmission, and diff look fresh out of the mold. It does not work on the front engine cover, engine block and cylinders/heads. But Ill take what I can get.
Its going back together now. I love the way its turning out. Ill post some more pics as I go.
I got the engine and transmission back in yesterday.
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Nice work! Very low miles. No water damage in the transmission? You're going to love this bike when it's back on the road. Great machines that do everything quite well. Would love to see more pictures.
Finished my total restoration a couple of years ago and hungry for another project after looking at your photos.
Keep the thread alive...
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Nice work!
You & Mike V have a great eye at Resto work - its an art after all!
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wow your engine block look soo clean!!!! did you paint it?
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Thanks for the comps.
I did not paint the engine. I cleaned the engine first with simple green, then my fav engine cleaner- Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom cleaner. Ive been using this on my cars for years. Spray on, let soak 10 min, rinse off. I then gave the stubborn spots a dose of brake cleaner.
As for water damage in transmission. I hope not! I didnt open it. But the oil had no water in it and it was stored in a dry location. So, Im expecting it to be ok.
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What did you use to scrub the block?
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Going to be a stunner when it hits the streets. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
You'd have more work space if you'd move that nasty red four-wheeler outta the garage. ;D
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You'd have more work space if you'd move that nasty red four-wheeler outta the garage. ;D
I could make room in mine. No! I didn't mean that! I'm trying to do without cars, just motorcyles and a pickup. And bicycles.
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Thanks for the comps.
I did not paint the engine. I cleaned the engine first with simple green, then my fav engine cleaner- Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom cleaner. Ive been using this on my cars for years. Spray on, let soak 10 min, rinse off. I then gave the stubborn spots a dose of brake cleaner.
As for water damage in transmission. I hope not! I didnt open it. But the oil had no water in it and it was stored in a dry location. So, Im expecting it to be ok.
Scrubbing Bubbles! Never thought of it! I've used simple green but there are some tough spots! I'll give it a shot!
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Very nice!
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This is a wonderful looking engine - I hope to get mine lookingthe same eventually - great piks and thanks for sharing - some useful tips about cleaning the alloy ..... good luck ...
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Hi again Flybot - could you let me know which of the Simple Green products you used on the engine thanks - do you mean the Simple Green degreaser --- Adrian
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Hello,
Busy the last few days.
I used the Simple Green in a blue bottle. I think its for aluminum. After letting it soak I just go over it with a plastic stiff bristle brush. I use the same brush after letting the Scrubbing Bubbles soak for a few minutes.
The real cleaner is the Scrubbing Bubbles. I just use the simple green as a first step degreaser, so all the scrubbing bubbles has to to is work on stains.
The bike is getting back on its own two feet. Front wheel is on. Working on getting the swing arm and rear wheel on next. I need to look up swing-arm instalation. More pics later.
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So is it easier to put the engine back in when the frame is on the ground? It seems like it'll be easier mounting it back on the frame without having to fiddle with a lift to secure it to the frame.
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So is it easier to put the engine back in when the frame is on the ground? It seems like it'll be easier mounting it back on the frame without having to fiddle with a lift to secure it to the frame.
I thought about it for a while before putting it back in. It took all of a few minutes with a helper. It was easy to get the engine back into the frame, by hand. I could pick the engine straight up by myself. But you need a person on both sides to wiggle it into the frame. Then I just moved the frame around the engine to line up the mounting bolts. Thats better than having to horse the engine around the frame to line them up. The pan of the engine sits flat on the ground. I dont have a good fit on this bike with my standard motorcycle lift. The kick stand mounts are all in the way.
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Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom cleaner. Ive been using this on my cars for years. Spray on, let soak 10 min, rinse off. I then gave the stubborn spots a dose of brake cleaner.
I ran right down and picked up some Scrubbing Bubbles. When it didn't do anything I saw that I got "kitchen cleaner". There are a couple of Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom products... bathroom cleaner, toilet, tile, etc. Is it the straight "Bathroom cleaner" product that you use
thanks
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Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom cleaner. Ive been using this on my cars for years. Spray on, let soak 10 min, rinse off. I then gave the stubborn spots a dose of brake cleaner.
I ran right down and picked up some Scrubbing Bubbles. When it didn't do anything I saw that I got "kitchen cleaner". There are a couple of Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom products... bathroom cleaner, toilet, tile, etc. Is it the straight "Bathroom cleaner" product that you use
thanks
Sorry for the confusion. It is the bathroom cleaner. I will go back and edit the previous posts.
EDIT: I guess the ability to edit goes away after a while. Cant change previous posts. Sorry, and I hope no one else gets the wrong stuff.
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Here is a pic of the cleaner that I great results with on certain parts. It worked great on the wheels (snowflake), fork lowers, rear drive, and transmission. It did not help the cylinders, head cover, or the front engine cover. In fact it made them look dark greyish.
Its an weak acid. Dilute it 4 parts water and one part cleaner. You just apply it with a sponge, let is soak for a few minutes and rinse off. You may want to rub stuborn areas. It goes on soapy and then gets like shaving cream. Its not going to burn you if it touches you, but I would wear gloves and be careful with it.
I was a bit worried when I first used it. I went out to the garage the next day hoping I wouldnt find a melted pile of aluminum. All was well.
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Sorry for the confusion. It is the bathroom cleaner.
I was the one that was confused, you stated "bathroom cleaner" in your first post. I just went willi nilly when I was on the cleaner isle at the local super market and saw 7 different "Scrubbing Bubbles" products.
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I got the swing arm on yesterday and a few other pieces. I should have it back on two wheels this afternoon.
I did the pulse air delete. I like the nice and neat cleanness of the airbox.
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Its looking really good Flybot - I took the reflectors off the slides today and underneath was the original shiny alloy - looking just like your piks so you've done amazingly well -= so what process (es) did you use forthe heads barrells etc ??? Thansk for any info and help you can give mate - Adrian .........
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Nothing special used on the engine that wasnt already mentioned with the Simple Green, Scrubbing Bubbles Bathroom Cleaner and a stiff plastic brush. There are several different metals used on the engine and tranny and they all react differently to different cleaning methods. The cylinders and valve covers just seem naturaly dull to me. I have them really clean, but thats as far as Im taking them. I tried various chems on the front engine cover, but nothing really worked very well. I ended up just using an abrasive plastic pad and then steel wool. I wanted a more factory look and not polished. But it looks more polished now. Oh well.
Like I said, the bike was parked with only 6000 miles on it. So it wasnt weathered too bad to begin with. I guess I got lucky.
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Okay thanks Flybot - I ahve tried several different types of cleaning ideas - your bathroom foaming cleaner has given great results on the fork sliders with just one quick test - thanks again its been really useful info thats working well - Adrian ..........
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Here it is up on its own two feet. Im so psyched to see it going together.
I hate the auto-retract side stand. I forgot about that untill I put it back on last night. It looks like to me if I saw off the pin at the end of the kickstand hinge bolt, it will stay down on its own. There is no other reason for the extended pin other than to keep the spring off center when the stand is down. I discovered this when installing. I had the hinge bolt in partialy and it would stay down on its own because the spring plate thing didnt bump the bolt extension. Any thoughts? I searched and Googled but didnt see anything specifc for an '83 R65 except the Brown stand.
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Great job! I just can't get over how clean your engine looks!!
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Great job! I just can't get over how clean your engine looks!!
It is a thing of beauty, yes.
Fingers and toes crossed for flybot that it remains as pristine after that first 100 mile shakedown. ;)
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Just a quick update on the progress.
I got all the electrics hooked back up and tested it. All good, after all these years.
Brake caliper rebuilt. Had a hard time getting the old pucks out. I thought I was going to have to get a new caliper, but finaly got them to give. All clean inside which suprised me. The seals had just gotten hard as a rock.
I have the single disk/Brembo caliper setup. Impossible to find the correct hose. Turned out ok tho, because I found a fab shop that make a perfect repro for half the price of most hoses-$45.
I got the tank back from the shop. It survived, although the acid treatment they used on the inside was hard on the paint. Looks like water spots. It will all be ok in the end, but Im having to do a 1000/2000 grit sanding, then buff and compound it out. Plus there is a few surface rust spots on the underside that need to be treated.
One issue Im going to have to deal with is the petcock connection on the tank has lost most of its threads from what ever the tank restoration process was. Its like the threads got eatten away a bit. Im not quite sure what to do on this.
So, last items are: finish up the tank, rebuild the carbs, Restore the exhaust system, refill all the fluids.
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The carbs are rebuilt and rigged up. Only two items left before I can fire this thing up:
- Restore the exhaust pipes using steel wool. I havnt looked at them in a while, but I think they were in pretty good shape.
- Improvise the connection from the tank to the petcock. For some reason there are no threads left on the tank fitting. I think it happened at the tank restoration shop. I will link the tank to the valve with a small link of hose. I still need a fitting to go on the valve so I can connect it with hose.
Pics later (if anyone cares)
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looks brilliant,
Looking forward to final pics!
Well done
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Flybot,
Great job! I may have missed part of the thread but regarding your Pulse Air conversion...be sure to plug the small vacuum take-off nipple in the rear of the air box. You may very well have done this after the photo was taken.
Tank threads - you may try to remove the petcock nut, apply some fine grinding compound on the nut threads and tank threads (sparingly) and try to clean up the threads that way after using a small brass brush to clean them up. If the male threads on the tank are seriously damaged this may be a futile attempt.
Bike is gorgeous - well done.
-Mike V.
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Here is a little photo update. Im pretty psyched because Ill soon be able to start it. The carbs are completely rigged up and I have the left exhaust pipe back on. Im going to have to get an adapter piece made for the petcock valve to the tank. Sort of a pain, but I have an uncle that is a machinist that can help.
Seeing it fully completed (on one side) is very inspiring. I received the bike last August. And started actually working on it this July. So, four months into it now. If it were not for a busy work schedule the next few weeks, Id probably have it done in a few more days. Anyway, here are the pics.
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I started it up last sunday after changing all the fluids. Fired up after about the third crank after sitting for over 25 years. Awesome! I still need to come up with an adapter for the fuel tank to petcock. I need to visit my machinist uncle. Just havnt had the time yet. I couldnt take it any longer and I rigged up a "test fuel tank" and took it for a few miles around the block. It ran pretty good with the initial carb settings. But after getting it warmed up I readjusted the idle settings and its very smooth now. Love it. I cant wait to really ride it.
Initial impressions: More torque and acceleration than I was expecting. I love how when you rev the bike at a stop it torque leans to the right. Ive always had v-twins and they dont do that.
I have the single front caliper. After a caliper rebuild, new master cylinder and hose my initial impression is the front brake is very weak. Almost scary. I need to bed the pads in more. Im sure that will help a little.
But I love it. Its been a great project.
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A few more
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Hello Flybot !
Very nice work !
A couple of questions :
1) what are the tyres ? (make and model , please)
2) what are the drippings on the rear wheel on the drive side ? If it's oil, you should check for leaks it could be dangerous ...
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A fantastic job flybot :)
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Hello Flybot !
Very nice work !
A couple of questions :
1) what are the tyres ? (make and model , please)
2) what are the drippings on the rear wheel on the drive side ? If it's oil, you should check for leaks it could be dangerous ...
Thanks!
The tires are the original rubber. They are Continental's. 3.25 x H18 in front and 4.0 x H18 in the rear. I didnt see any model type name on them. Although the rear had large "K112" and the front had a similar but different number.
Good catch on the drips. However, I went right out to the garage to check it out. It is some mess I didnt see when I filled the rear drive. No leaks though.
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I have the single front caliper. After a caliper rebuild, new master cylinder and hose my initial impression is the front brake is very weak. Almost scary.
What brand pads did you install when you reworked the Brembo caliper? Are you positive that all the air has been purged from the brake system?
A close study of your front disc reveals the grooved pattern worn into the disc itself. The cause is often attributed to the disc's holes being located in concentric circles. Later discs were drilled with the holes staggered to prevent this unwanted wear pattern.
If all else is good with the brake system, you're going to need to use the front brakes frequently and firmly enough to wear matching grooves in the pads. Front brake performance on the R65 with the single Brembo can be quite strong.
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It depends what you are comparing with but for their time I agree with Monte that the brake are not that bad when they are working well.
Compared with modern brakes they are going to feel rubbish and one thing that doesn't help is that BMW were excessively cautious with the master cylinder/caliper piston ratio. This means you get a very firm lever but you have to pull excessively hard to achieve the performance the brake is capable of. One mod that many people have done is to fit a master cylinder with a smaller piston which improves power and feel without the lever coming all the way back to the bars under heavy braking. It's generally accepted that you can go down at least one size. What master cylinder size do you have ? Stock should be 12mm. There have been cases where the master cylinder for a twin disk model has been fitted to a single disk set up and that will make the brakes feel really awful.
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From the pictures, it looks like you have an OEM rubber brake hose .
If it is, I would suggest replacing it with an aftermarket braided stainless hose .
It won't make a miraculous change in braking performance, but it will be better .
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Ill give the front brake a chance to redeem its self. It has a very firm feel. I guess I was expecting it to be really grabby because of that. When I gave it a pull like I normally would on my HD it felt like the caliper was made of ice. But, in fairness there are a few factors that may be affecting that. First, I had a bit of overspray on the disk from painting the edge of the disk black, like it originally was. Second, during the rebuild I may have swapped the sides the pads came out of. I dont remember if they only go in one way. So they probably need to bed in. Also, my mechanic friend says I should sand them down a bit because they would be somewhat glazed after sitting for so long. Im not sure if I believe that, but it cant hurt to sand them down a little anyway. Lastly, I very well could have gotten a larger master cylinder. I was getting a bit desperate to source a new one and I relied on the parts guy to get the right one. I think it was Capitol Cycle. Seems BMW sort of gave up making parts for the single front brake system. A single brake line from the master to the caliper is non-existent from what I can tell. I had a custom one made from a local hydraulic and brake supply shop.
So, Im not bashing the front brake. Ive only logged about 3 miles going around and around my block (I think some neighbors were wondering what the heck I was doing). It just wasnt what I was expecting is all.
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As Barry has said, the brakes on the R65, are not it's strongest point, compared to later year bikes .
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Nice restoration! Very nice!
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Suggest you also try new EBC FA-18 organic brake pads.
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Nice job flybot, looks like we have the same taste in cars. First test for me was to see if I could cram it all in there during a long winter's "restoration".
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Yep, Bimmer's and Porsche's. Gotta love 'em
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Finally calling this project complete. I think its full road worthy and I can finally drive it to the DMV to get licensed. Ive put about 20-30 miles on it getting it tuned up.
It was a learning experience getting the carbs right. Ive always been pretty good with carburetors, but it had been awhile since I had messed with them. Thanks for this forum and for all the R65 knowledge stored here and questions answered.
I was getting a bit down on the carb tuning, but they are now pretty darn good. I was thinking I was going to have to tear them down again because I just couldnt get a good idle once it was warmed up. Before removing the carbs, I thought "well, I havnt adjusted the valves yet". I read it over and over that this must be done, before a carb tune. I dont know why I didnt do it. Stubborn I guess. Im glad I did it. Both exhaust valves were tight and one of the intakes. I put it back together and it started right up and went to 3500 rpm! WTH? So, I backed the idle stops both down a full 1.25 turns and she was purring like a kitten. I did a few more tweaks to the idle mixture after riding it some. Long story short, I wasnt even on the idle circuit before. The throttles were adjusted open too much. Im not sure how the valve adjustment is so tied to the carb tune, but it is.
As for the issue with the tank fitting, I had to improvise. Cant seem to get it together with my uncle to make a fitting. I think this set up looks like hairy balls, but it works. I wrapped the fittings in black silicone tape so it didnt look like I had a NOS fitting attached to the bike. The fittings were nice race blue anodized fittings, that did not go with the look at all.
Anyway, I love the ride. Its very easy to maneuver, which will be nice on my commute to work when it gets warm again. Thanks for all the help guys. Ill see you on the forum...
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Im not sure how the valve adjustment is so tied to the carb tune, but it is.
The reason is simple. When you adjust the valve clearances you are making small changes to compression, valve timing and overlap which is the duration when both inlet and exhaust valves are open at the same time. Idle characteristics are particular sensitive to overlap as some of the exhaust gas is mixing with the incoming mixture and some of the incoming mixture is going straight out the exhaust. To combat this the idle mixture has to be set artificially rich to get a good idle.
In the extreme, closed up exhaust clearances will really stuff up idle settings but even a 2 thou change in clearances will make a very obvious difference to idle speed and mixture. Open up clearances and the idle speed will rise which will require backing off the throttle stops and the engine will also tolerate the mixture screws being turned in a touch. I've only experienced the comparative results of a 2 thou change but I can imagine 4 thou or more could contribute to the big effect you experienced.
There is probably another aspect to the effect in your case. When say the carbs were not on the idle circuit it doesn't necessarily mean the needle jet was flowing mixture as there is another source. What can happen is that if the throttle is too far open at idle it brings the little transfer ports into play adding quite a bit more fuel than just the mixture screw and this will cause idle revs to rise significantly.
Interesting fuel tap.
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love your garages over the pond! are they all like that?
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nice job too!