The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: VaSteve on November 12, 2011, 01:38:11 PM
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I went for a ride today and as I got closer to home, I was having increasing difficulty keeping the bike running. It'd stall out in first gear at lights. The bike was also getting harder and harder to shift.
I nursed it back home and it appears that the clutch handle is a lot easier to squeeze than it used to be...even the last time I rode the bike.
When I inspected it off the bike, it seems that when squeezed, it's pulling the transmission mount, but not by much. In fact, when the bike is running and I squeeze the handle, I can hear a squeaking....I'm assuming the clutch almost disengaging.
I figure the cable must have stretched a bit out of spec and I was going to replace. I looked at A&S fische and I couldnt't find the cable listed. Anyone know the part number or where to buy? How much is it?
Other feedback welcome of course.
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I think I would inspect for other things as well as the cable stretching. The cable wouldn't stretch that fast unless it was already down to a few strands of wire. Other possibilities might include the clutch operating arm pivot pin is falling out (and that would need catching quick before one of the posts on the back of the gearbox breaks off) or the clutch actuating push rod is severely worn.
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Is the push rod a wear item? I messed with it a little now that it's cool. The travel when pushing on the clutch is little at the rear of the transmission. I turned the adjuster nut in a little and it the handle got stiffer, but it's not the "right" solution. A couple passes up an down the street showed that it's very jerky. *Something* is out of adjustment/spec...I'm terrible at figuring out what.
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Check you through out bearing. What you are describing is alot like the through out bearing is going. I had this happen to my R90/6 and is was like you are talking about.
Don
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Have you checked the cable end fitting at the handlebar ?
I had one fray at the swagged fitting at the clutch lever, it prevented the cable from going back into the outer sheath/conduit .
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Check you through out bearing. What you are describing is alot like the through out bearing is going. I had this happen to my R90/6 and is was like you are talking about.
Don
Which part is the throw out bearing? (Please tell me it's outside the transmission. :) )
http://www.ascycles.com/Illustrated_catalog2/MicroList.aspx?id=51626&catID=21&catname=Clutch&bindName=CLUTCH_CONTROL&bindCat=21_0086
Bob....no visible fraying. :-/
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Item number 3 .
How about the adjustment bolt at the arm on the transmission .
I had the jamnut come loose and the bolt backed out .
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What Bob said on Item #3. Did not think about the jam nut coming loose and letting the bolt back out.
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Item number 3 .
How about the adjustment bolt at the arm on the transmission .
I had the jamnut come loose and the bolt backed out .
Throwout bearing looks easy to inspect/replace. Will check on it tomorrow.
I initially thought the adjuster nut as well, but when I decided to mess with that, it was stuck pretty good....tightening it up didn't help.
Will report back...thanks.
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If it is the bearing, keep in mind that A&S does not show the fiche for the '78-'80 models, only the '81-'84.
THIS is the correct fiche. Part #4.
Still easy to access. But you will need a magnet-on-a-stick.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0363&mospid=51897&btnr=21_0069&hg=21&fg=51
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And check your handlebar control end of the cable. Make sure it is greased as stated above. The bottom end needs love, too.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F93825172%2Flarge.jpg&hash=0f9208ee5724d148b740bd48e30204ee9f2b9034)
I put some 90 wt oil on the throwout bearing when assembling it.
The end of the pushrod where it contacts the clutch plate can deform. It requires a small dab of moly grease when you have the transmission removed for other reasons.
Here is a good article comparing the throwout assy's from various years:
http://www.largiader.com/articles/throwout/
Here is a link to an image of a worn push rod compared to a good one:
http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/clutch/PushRodTit.jpg
From Duane's page on the matter:
http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/clutch/index.htm
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If it is the bearing, keep in mind that A&S does not show the fiche for the '78-'80 models, only the '81-'84.
THIS is the correct fiche. Part #4.
Still easy to access. But you will need a magnet-on-a-stick.
Good to know on the link, that burned me on something else. I'm a pretty crappy mechanic....I have LOTS of magnet-on-a-sticks. :)
The whole bike was apart for cleaning, repainting...except this part. I'm wondering if it got ruined while I was doing some of the cleaning on the transmission? Hmmm, we'll see.
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I had that small bearing get trashed on me when my bike was less than 5 years old. Since then I've watched it carefully, carried a spare, and never needed it.
But I did forget to refill my gearbox with oil one time. Now I have a new used box in it's place and one VERY trashed one sitting in the back of the garage. I'm not even sure if the case is worth anything at this point.
That is another motorcycling mistake I will probably never repeat.
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OK, so it was the throw out bearing. I took the clutch lever off and put my magnet in and got nothing but needle bearings and metal dust out. There was no cage for them at all.
I was trying to get the washer #3 out but it appears to be stuck on the clutch rod. Then Bentley manual and the links provided say it's not possible to remove the clutch rod with the transmission on, but I was able to grab the rod with a needlenose and pull it out as far as the swingarm. You can see in the photos that on the backside (inside) there is a lip. On the outside, there is not, but I couldn't pull off the washer. If I *could* pull off the washer, I can't tell if the rod is actually trashed or not. I'm also trying to figure out if I loosen the swingarm, can I pull the whole mess and replace all the parts. Thoughts? Possible?
I assume during normal operation, the rod slides in and out of that washer? Which leads me to....how exactly does this set up work? The arm presses the piston (#5) which I assume presses the rod. But if the piston doesn't actually move, then does it just press on the bearing/washer surface?
From one of the sites:
The clutch throwout bearing allows the clutch actuating arm (on the rear of the transmission) to push against the clutch which is spinning at engine speed. The arm pushes against the bearing, which pushes the pushrod through a hole in the input shaft against the clutch diaphragm spring. The spring and the pushrod spin at engine speed, and the bearing isolates that movement from the actuating arm which obviously doesn't spin.
See the "lip"?
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg195.imageshack.us%2Fimg195%2F3504%2Fdsc2173r.jpg&hash=fe0d404d792484ce62dbbb5f59bf3e1d116f08d4) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/dsc2173r.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg442.imageshack.us%2Fimg442%2F4629%2Fdsc2176c.jpg&hash=67c601e768c2b45d73ebdbf3d5e544a03c753548) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/dsc2176c.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Hmmm.... my problems seem very similar to this thread: http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1203980214/60
Page 5 and 7 have the gory photos.
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That washer most likely will not come off, it's a pressed fit .
To get the pushrod out, you need to remove the swing arm, at least pull it back a few inches or so, or drop it down so the pushrod clears it .
The bearing, washer and pushrod move as an assembly.
If you look at the end of the pushrod, it's got a threaded hole for some sort of removal tool .
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That washer most likely will not come off, it's a pressed fit .
:o I don't understand it being a pressed fit. :-[ I don't see that in any of the manuals. How would I press it back on once replaced?
It seems like we're in agreement that this can be done without taking the whole transmission off but moving the swingarm. Good.
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Do you need to replace the washer ?
It doesn't rotate, or do anything other than move in and out when the clutch lever is moved .
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Do you need to replace the washer ?
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I don't know. I was going to get a new bearing and was going to replace this if I was putting in a parts order.
The washer does spin on the rod. At least on this bike...
Looking at the other thread I linked to, it looks like "biocruiser" had his washer "fuse" to the rod...post 73.
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When I've removed the transmissions on my R65's, the washer has never been loose on the rod, maybe I have it wrong !!!!!!
Never really thought about it before, but it might rotate when the push rod contacts the diaphragm spring .
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We might both be right....mine is an '80... the parts are different.
Meh....not looking forward to taking this all apart. I hope I can shortcut it with a little disassembly of the swingarm.
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Steve, I would forget any shortcuts at this point and remove the gearbox from the bike.
The inner washer SHOULD come right out with the magnet, effortlessly.
I think you are looking at replacing the push rod, too. It should not be flared on the front side of the washer like I am seeing in your picture.
Your bearing has been gone for quite a while, it appears, and there has been a lot of heat generated there.
Sorry for the bad news.
Don't forget new bolts for the output flange/universal joint when you order your bearing.
As far as the push rod goes, I would get one from one of the breakers.
You will also need a new felt if the push rod you get has the gap for it, and the only way to install the new felt is to insert the push rod from the front of the gearbox.
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Used parts dealers:
http://www.re-psycle.com/
http://martindalemotorcycleworks.com/A55A76/home.nsf
The good news is, the same part was used in /6 & /7 airheads as well as the R65.
Re-Psycle will probably have a used rod (23 13 1 232 089) as well as a new felt and a new or used inner plate (washer).
How does that rubber gasket look on the piston?
It is possible the face of the piston was damaged as well. The new bearing won't like it if it has.
Again, used parts should be readily available.
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Rob, thanks. I hadn't thought that the challenge would be to *install* the new rod...thus needing to do it from the front. Ho hum. I guess I should do it right.
I also have some old cars. One guy I met that has a Turbo version of one of the cars and I were talking about how he'd taken the entire thing apart and repaired it over the years. I said I heard the Turbos were a pain because of all the piping and what not. He said "it's just nuts and bolts..."
Hell, this bike has been down to the bare frame this year, should come apart easy. :) This little bike is nickle and diming me to death, but it's cheaper than my other hobbies. :)
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Steve
It apears that your rod was not welded to the pressure plate. The washer that is on your rod normally slips right off. When you remove the tranmission look at your pressure plate where the rod touches. When the rod does not spin it will weld to the pressure plate. You are going to need to replace the rod, washer, bearing, piston, and felt at least.
Don
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Oh got all this apart and back together. What a monster pain in the butt. I still have to adjust the clutch since it will now not let t he clutch seat on the flywheel. :(
I do have a question. I bouht parts 1-6 in this diagram. I cannot figure out part #6. It doesn't really seat and seems as if it would just fall out otherwise...I don't recall what it was like when I took it apart last fall. Anyone have a photo of your bike?
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http://www.ascycles.com/Illustrated_catalog2/MicroList.aspx?id=51897&catID=21&catname=Clutch&bindName=CLUTCH_CONTROL&bindCat=21_0069
The diagram..... This board and iPad are not compatible. :(
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Your post linked fine for me .
Can't help you identifying part # 6, I've got later bikes with different parts .
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Item 6 is a seal that fits in the slot on item 5.
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Are you sure it's not the cable? I was riding home and had similar symptoms and as I pulled up to my garage door and pulled the clutch lever in the cable broke not far from the lever.
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Sorry, I didn't read all the thread, looks like you have found the culprit.
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Item 6 is a seal that fits in the slot on item 5.
That explains it, I bought a used #5. It came with part #6 already installed.
Thanks