The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: roryjohnson on March 06, 2012, 11:46:36 AM
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Dear All
I would be very grateful if you could take a look at my problem and let me know what you think.
***For the short version, just go straight to the bottom of the message, I know you're all busy people :)
I bought a 1980 R65 18 months ago, bad idea, it has had loads of problems. To cut a long story short, it was in the garage for most of last year, while the mechanic fixed / checked a lot of things: cleaned the carbs, checked the cylinders, redid the wiring / electrics....$$$
Anyway the guy fixed it up and the bike ran fine until a couple of weeks ago. Until then, the engine never started great, would cut out if you werent careful, but ran fine once warmed up after 5-10min. Then on cold mornings (Barcelona cold = 5 Centrigade or so), the engine began to start but only with the choke, and making a kind of muffled weird engine noise, with not enough power to actually ride, and would cut out as soon as you took of the choke.
***Then last week, when I started her, the starter couldnt turn at all for a few tries, until eventually it started and oil spluttered out of the joint of the right exhaust pipe. I always noticed that this side produced a little black smoke while running, compared to the left. Since then I haven't run the bike for fear of doing some serious damage.
See photo attached.
Any idea what the problem could be? Is this something serious?
I already spent a fortune on this bike with the mechanics :'(
Thanks a lot for your advice!!
Rory
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Any idea what the problem could be? Is this something serious?
The first diagnostic test I would do and it shouldn't cost much is a compression test. If there is something serious wrong with the right cylinder it will show up as a low reading in comparison to the left. If the mechanics had done a proper job "checking the cylinders " they should be able to tell you what the compression readings are. It does sound like the right side has been burning oil and has suddenly got much worse or it could just be that there was an accumulation of oil or oil/fuel in the cylinder. You didn't leave the fuel tap on while the bike was parked up by any chance ?
In the mean time how about removing the spark plug and tell us what state it's in and what you can see by peering down the plug hole.
The engine making a kind of muffled weird engine noise, with not enough power to actually ride is a fair description of how mine sounds on full choke so it may not necessarily be a fault. It's how an engine can sound on a grossly over rich mixture. At that temperature I push the choke straight off and hold the engine on the throttle for a few seconds before riding off. I put it down to a characteristic of those early flatop Bings. If yours wont run at all with the choke off then there may be something wrong like the low compression already mentioned. Though you shouldn't expect it to idle when cold without holding the revs up a little on the throttle.
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Rory, How many miles / kilometers are on the clock?
And another item, starting up an Airhead for the first time each day usually requires using the choke/enrichener lever. No throttle until it lights off, then maybe a little assist as the engine warms.
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Thanks Monte and Barry for quick replies!
In response:
1) 58000km on the clock
2) yes I did leave the fuel tap on, I always do. Is it better to switch the fuel off overnight?
3) relief to hear that mine is not the only R65 that needs a bit of help on the throttle after starting up. I found this video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqYFy3UGjSU) where the guy starts his bike first time on a frosty morning, and it always made me think my bike was in poor condition.
Appreciate your help
Best
Rory
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Is it better to switch the fuel off overnight?
Yes it is very much an airhead ritual in case the floats don't seal properly and the carbs overflow into the cylinders. That can cause an hydraulic lock. There was a clue when you said the engine wouldn't turn over.
On an optimistic note if that's all that was wrong you might have got away with it. If the fuel is still on it might be wise to crank the engine over with the plugs out before attempting to start it again
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Great thanks a lot, I will try that and also not leave the fuel on overnight in future.
Lets hope thats the problem. I will try tomorrow and let you know.
All the best
Rory
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I get the idea the carburetors are set pretty rich. These bikes run the best when they need a choke to start - otherwise it's running rich all the time.
It's best if you learn to work on your own bike. A lot of these tasks aren't difficult, so you can learn them. But it can get expensive having someone else fix it for you.
I'd suggest acquiring a shop manual and reading up on the carburetors as a first step. And consult us before doing anything - as the manuals aren't always right, or procedures may have changed since the printing.
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I left the gas open once. The left cylinder filled with gas to the point that the starter couldn't turn it over. I just removed the spark plug, and let the fuel evaporate before It ran again.
In your case, a piston ring may be worn and letting too much oil into the cylinder. Remove the spark plug and use flashlight to see the insides on the cylinder. With this method, you can also turn the engine little by little via kick starter of electric(with both plugs removed) to see the condition of the valves.
A unique quirk I saw through experience, if the bike's idle goes up a little when the choke is on and the bike is cold, the carb setting is good. It the choke does nothing to the idle, something is wrong.
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Dear All
>>Regarding my problem with non-starting bike
Following on from your helpful advice before:
I turned off the fuel tap, and tried starting the bike on several occasions but still no success. The starter motor seems fine, but the engine doesn't catch. I also notice that after each attempt to start the bike, I hear a clicking noise coming from general vicinity of the battery, that only stops when I turn off the ignition. Is this something normal?
Finally I got the time to check the sparkplugs. I attach the photos (I took a couple of each sides sparkplug: first 3 are of the left, next 2 of the right): I am a complete novice, but the spark plugs looks pretty black, particularly the left one. Could this be the source of the problem? Or maybe that is how they usually look.
Any advice or suggestions very welcome!
Best
Rory
I shone a torch inside the cylinder but I couldn't really see much. It didn't seem as if the cylinder was full of fuel or anything.
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Rory, those old plugs are toast. The nastiest one looks oil fouled but it could also be from an lengthy accumulation of a little bit of oil. Definitely time for some new sparklers.
The clicking you hear may be the starter relay doing its thing even thought the battery may have gone flat. How old is your battery and have you checked its cell fluid levels recently? Many Airhead owners keep their machines on a Battery Tender -a floating charge unit- that keeps the battery charged properly.
I may have misread your last post but the fuel tap should be "on" when starting the bike. (?) Fuel evaporates from the float bowls a lot faster than you may imagine. If you have them turned off, could be there's no fuel to the carbs.
Sometime in the near future, a compression test should be considered.
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Man! Those plugs are toast! Not only are they carboned up, but they look pretty old and corroded.
They may still work ok if you clean them up - use a wire brush and some carb cleaner. But it's best just to replace them - I'm a fan of keeping things working to the bitter end, but even I would replace those things!
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No surprise it wouldn't start with those plugs. The real surprise is it ran at all. Looks like you have an oil burning problem as well as too rich mixture.
If it starts and runs fine with a battery charge and new plugs I would remove them after giving the bike a decent run then take pictures again. That should show up the oil and mixture issues a lot more clearly.
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Barry
Thanks a lot for your answer. May I ask a couple of questions:
1) When putting new spark plugs, is it just as simple as screwing them in and connecting them, or should I add some product to the threads of the plugs? I think in the Haynes it says to add some graphite grease to the plugs, but its not clear if this is really important or not.
2) What could cause the oil burning problem / rich mixture? I guess the mixture is just something you adjust. But the oil thing could be a sign of some major problem with the bike?
Appreciate the help!
Rory
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It's not necessary to lubricate the spark plug threads, and there's even a bit of controversy over whether to or not. I don't think it makes much difference either way - I've never had a plug seize. But it sure doesn't hurt using a dab of anti-seize. Don't use oil or anything like that - it'll crystallize from the heat and then you'll most certainly have a problem removing the plugs.
Oil on the spark plugs tends to indicate leaky piston rings. It can be loose valve guides as well - those are the two normal places for oil to enter the cylinder.
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A couple more questions:
(again, please forgive my asking obvious questions, Im new to motorbike mechanics)
1) Do I need to buy a specific type of spark plug for my bike? and I guess I need to adjust the spark gap, right?
2) Leaky piston rings / loose valve guides: are these minor / major / catastrophic problems?
Thanks a lot guys
Rory
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you want Bosch W5DC or equivalent. I prefer NGK BP7ES.
Gap should be .024" to .028"
If possible use a torque wrench to install the plugs at 15ftlb with dry threads or 12ftlb with antiseize. Those are lower than book figures but they are safe and I never had a plug fall out.
The rich mixture is gong to be easier to tackle than the oil. Make sure chokes are fully off to start with after that it's checking the carbs are set up right like float level, jet sizes and needle positions are all stock.
The oil burning issue is a matter of degree and it looks worse on the left cylinder. After you get the bike running right you can measure the oil consumption in terms of how much oil you need to add per 1000km. By the way don't top the oil up to the full mark on the dipstick as that tends to make them burn more oil through the engine breather. Set your oil level half way between min and maximum marks. That alone may help.
Last but not least don't go near that garage again. Anyone who worked on an engine including "checking the cylinders" and put back old plugs in that state is not someone you want to do business with. It's not just how black they are but the extreme corrosion suggests the plugs are very old and have not been replaced in a long time.
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Looking at the nice clear photos that you sent of your spark plugs makes me wonder if the mechanic that worked on your bike did everything he should have for you. They look like they have been in there for a long time. I sounds like the bike was running OK before you had a hard time getting it started so even if it is burning a little oil, you still can ride it if you keep you spark plugs clean. Good luck
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Really helpful, thanks to all of you for the advice!
I'm off to buy new plugs tomorrow then