The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: montmil on February 26, 2012, 05:08:28 PM
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Rubi76 got a lengthy timing chain thread going and part of it evolved into a discussion and cussin' of the exhaust headers cross-over connector pipes. Wirespokes coined the term xoverectomy.
This special R65 surgical procedure will begin on the morrow upon my 1983 R65. I believe the crossover pipes can be trimmed to use as patches over the four soon-to-be holes in the header pipes. A bit of TIG welding, some clean up and call it done.
As requested by my deployed Soldier and ersatz owner of the bike, a replica pair of chrome Norton peashooter mufflers, which have the identical header pipe opening as does the R65, will replace the black, LS mufflers currently fitted. Too quiet, son says. From JEGS Performance Parts, one-inch wide, tan heat wrap tape will cover the mottled black paint -and weld patches- now gracing the headers. Once completed, this should be a nice visual with the bike's OEM 501 blue paint.
I know you guys so photos as they come.
Here's the link to the rubi76 thread:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1328880748
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Before and after Dyno graphs requested! ;)
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Still raining in Daytona Beach so the 500 has again been delayed. Sunday>Monday late morning>Monday evening. We'll see.
Good time to yank the exhaust off the Mexico Bike and get started on the xoverectomy.
Ah, the joy of anti-sieze; header nuts spun right off sans problems. Oh, and rubi76, the header pipes slipped right out after removing the LS mufflers and assorted clamps. No hammers required. [smiley=wink.gif]
After a dose of 50/50 acetone and brake fluid -the best rust buster I've found, the cross-over pipes came away with just a couple love taps from a dead blow hammer.
The photo shows the cut off x-over stubs and one header after grinding down the welded remains. The header pipes are vintage LS just like the mufflers -except the headers are flecked with rust spots and grungy paint.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65headers.jpg&hash=bb10ca5cbcb507df97940e931421618bbc024ad8)
The plan is to cut some round discs from 4130, shape them to match the curve of the header pipe and weld 'em in place. Expect to complete the stump grinding mañana and perhaps get a jump on the steel patch cutting. And the beat goes on ...
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local shop did this mod to my bike
I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the difference before & after the mod.
All the best
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Hi Monte,
Glad to hear that the headers weren't a battle.
I'm sure next time I take them off it will be a little easier.
Very keen to hear if the X-overectomy makes a difference to the performance of the bike. Waiting for spares to arrive so I have time to play.
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What is the specific goal in removing the X-O pipe? Cosmetics? Performance?
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Easier to get the exhaust system off .
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and back on ;)
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After I got my exhaust system off for the first time, 17 years and 45,000 miles, I got everything apart (finally), I applied anti-seize compound to all of the slip joints, and I haven't had a problem removing the exhaust system since .
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After I got my exhaust system off for the first time, 17 years and 45,000 miles, I got everything apart (finally), I applied anti-seize compound to all of the slip joints, and I haven't had a problem removing the exhaust system since.
I do the same, but for some reason these dual xovers have been a problem. Especially in comparison to the single xover systems.
Is it possible to separate the two sides when taking them off the bike? I've never been able to, so avoid that job if at all possible. It's one thing to be able to separate them and quite another to get them apart while on the bike.
I'm wondering how much of a difference it makes that you live in a dry climate like Arizona.
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It probably helps, also getting the exhaust system hot enough to evaporate the water that condenses inside of the exhaust system during the warm up of the engine to operating temperature .
My original mufflers on the '81 R65 rusted out due to my 5 mile commute (13 stop lights !!!) to work when I lived in Chicago, the exhaust never got hot enough to get the water out of it .
My '91 Honda Civic CRX Si, still has the original exhaust system on it !!!
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What is the specific goal in removing the X-O pipe? Cosmetics? Performance?
Yes. ::)
Completed removal of the four x-over stub tubes and shaped three of the four block-off plates. Was 4:55 in the PM and Happy Hour begins at 5:00. Didn't want to miss that so bailed outta the shop.
Plan "A" is to get the last block-off done tomorrow AM and then drop off the goods at my favorite machine and welding shop.
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Are you making them so they fit flush with the surface?
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Although I don't have crossover pipes on my bike I always smear silicone sealant on any slip joints in exhaust systems.
It seems to stop them rusting together and is easy to pull apart when required.
It works a treat on mild steel car exhausts and may keep crud out of the stainless steel systems that shouldn't rust together.
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I also use silicone sealant on exhaust joints. When I haven't had any to hand I've also used a thin wrap of PTFE tape at the silencer joints on the bike. It helps to make a good seal and also aids removal. At that point in the exhaust system PTFE easily copes with the temperature.
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Are you making them so they fit flush with the surface?
Nope. I would only undertake that chore if the headers were to be re-chromed. The ones I'm working with are old, black-painted headers off an LS.
What I did was to begin with some .070 steel, then work it over some heavy pipe to achieve a close approximation on the header's o.d.
Trim, grind and sand the patch into a semi-circular shape that overlaps the holes in the header pipes by approx 1/8 - 3/16-inch. Take the patch piece back to the header and continue encouraging the metal to lay properly over the hole. Each patch is ever so slightly different as the bends in each header are different due to the fore n' aft offset of the cylinders. The header tubes also do a little angled kick up at the muffler end. Guess where the aft cross-over holes are? A bit tricky, those two.
Will try to post a couple photos later today showing the pipe patches.
And, as mentioned in the first post, SFC Miller digs the tan-color header wrap so the block offs will not be evident. Need to do some clean up and rust proofing after the welding. Will refit the LS mufflers until the shiny ones arrive.
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Ok, I get it. The repairs won't be visible, so no need to be seamless.
I've always used antiseize on the exhaust junctions - never thought of silicone. Or PTFE. Interesting ideas...
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This is the way the headers went to the machine shop Wednesday afternoon for welding. Should be ready by Friday afternoon. Chatted with the owner but figure someone else will do the torch work; that's why I break it down for them Barney-style -to insure which bit goes where. ::)
Weekend will be used to do any needed dressing of the welds, prep the pipes and shoot 'em with some high-temperature disc brake caliper paint. Want to refit the headers and mufflers and ride the bike for a couple days to cure the paint. I had previously used the VHT-branded caliper paint on a pair of dulled LS mufflers. While sorta dry, the paint was "pebbly" looking but after a few hours of ride time, the paint actually smoothed out.
FedEx says the heat wrap tape will arrive tomorrow. Coming together...
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FHeaders01.jpg&hash=3c96b67ad6fb7ac89efe250253953554fef9d016)
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After I got my exhaust system off for the first time, 17 years and 45,000 miles, I got everything apart (finally), I applied anti-seize compound to all of the slip joints, and I haven't had a problem removing the exhaust system since.
More's the pity that the factory lads didn't think of something similar as our freshly built bikes rolled down the assembly lines three decades ago.
'alf a mo'... Perhaps they did, considering all the used and new exhaust components Airhead owners seem to consume.
$$$ & £££ [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif] tweek tweek
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Looking good there Monte ,
Can't wait to see the finished product and results.
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That is impressive work Monte!
We can wait for Darryl Richman to chime in here, but I'm pretty sure the Type 247 in 1970 (69?) was the first BMW to have the cross over. At least that is what I found looking at pictures of their early sport models.
I think the first one was added to increase torque, and the 2nd one was a similar modification, which on the R65 happened when the fresh air pulse plumbing was introduced to the U.S., along with the Nikasil cylinders and larger valves and lower compression ratio. I could be wrong about the compression ratio, but the early models were 9.2/1.
I know from my early driving record that they were plenty hot when they were fresh ... and I weighed 50 pounds less! ;D
Bottom line is we have first hand testimony that the bike will run ( ;) ) without them, so what the heck?
Myself, I have a brand new set of single-cross over OEM headers, so I won't be cutting them up anytime soon! If I had doubles I would be welding the rear ones up in a heartbeat!
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Header pipes are done and neatly welded. Metal prep happening right now before shooting some hi-temp paint this weekend.
Planning to install the pipes along with the soon-to-be-replaced LS mufflers, then put some miles on the bike next week to cure the VHT paint. Wrap 'em by, hopefully, mid-week as the new Norton Peashooters are due 05-08 March.
I'll add a couple progress snaps this weekend.
And here they are:
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65HeaderWeld01.jpg&hash=55e1f17493e7352d76d03960f4d8c76bdb190530)
Block off plates welded. Clean up and metal prep started.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65HeaderWeld03.jpg&hash=100f35f82909635119649a38f88fbf874fa603bf)
Getting rid of old paint and rust areas. These LS headers were never chrome.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65HeaderPaint01.jpg&hash=17344930791eab2dde9f257a4122cf9c46f72194)
Shot some VHT rattle can high-temp paint and put the headers in the solar paint booth dryer. Maybe the paint will be cured enough to refit the headers by Sunday afternoon, then slip on the LS mufflers and do the final paint heat cure before beginning the wrap exercise.
Ready to get the Norton muffs in the shop.
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It was Monday afternoon before I could get to the R65's headers. W-a-y many honey-do and momma-do errands, plus some yard work as an early Spring has arrived. It's 77[size=12][ch730][/size]F and sunny right now. Grass and weeds competing for my time.
I have previously worked extensively with fiberglas and carbon fiber materials. Without proper safety precautions, the flotsam and jetsam from this stuff can be bad for your health. So... Eye protection, dust mask and doubled-up gloves.
Twenty-five feet of 1-inch wide fiberglas header wrap went into a bucket of water. The header was clamped in a vise between semi-rigid plastic jaws. Stainless steel zip ties prepped for both ends of the wrap.
The instructions with the wrap encouraged using a 1/2" overlap if the product was to be used on a motorcycle or ATV. Vibration, they said. A chart accompanied the instructions and provided estimates of how many feet of wrap would be needed for specific pipe diameters. I read everything. The last line stated, "If using a 1/2" overlap, disregard the chart." Great.
I decided to cut the fifty-foot roll in half. For one header, I used slightly more than 23 feet.
Patience is required for a nice job. Wrapping the pipes while they are off the bike makes the job so much easier; you can put the Mk1 eyeball on a 360[ch730] scan mode and keep overlaps and visual line ups nice and tidy. BTW, I did this first pipe twice.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65Wrap02.jpg&hash=e6931a1c353e228adf6b7679f6d0c5ac5855e26d)
Look, Ma! No crossover pipes. And what a pleasure it was refitting the exhaust system.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65Wrap01.jpg&hash=d6c819b719d962da1c1730fb70435dbae934ccab)
In case you're asking yourself, "How do he unscrew the exhaust nuts to get the header pipes off?"
Pull the muffler as usual. Loosen and remove the rear header clamp. You can easily do this as there is no longer a cross-over pipe. Then, while loosening the butterfly nut, jiggle the header pipe and simply work it forward at the same rate as you remove the nut. Cake.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65Wrap03.jpg&hash=05b14511337e1d308bc307b3734019ae8fbd9a5a)
Using the 1-inch width tape and employing the recommended 1/2" overlap provides a consistent finished diameter for the header pipe. That was one of my goals with this project. I also wanted to eliminate the funky x-overs for easier service work and get away from so much visual 'black' color down by the waterline.
The soon-to-arrive chrome Norton mufflers will replace the black LS muffs and will definitely add some needed bling while the tan header wrap material pops nicely with the BMW 501 blue.
Left side happens tomorrow. Now where the heck are those peashooters? ;)
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This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious what's to be gained from wrapping the headers besides hiding the patch. I know the temp in an automotive engine bay can be reduced doing this. And supposedly a HP gain can be realized, I sort of recall that.
But beyond that it makes no sense to me.
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There is a theoretical improvemnt in effeciency due to increased exhaust gas temperature and velociity. It should look to the engine like the mixture has been richened very slightly but I've never seen it quantified on a dyno or described as detectable by the butt of the pants version.
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This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious what's to be gained from wrapping the headers besides hiding the patch. I know the temp in an automotive engine bay can be reduced doing this. And supposedly a HP gain can be realized, I sort of recall that.
But beyond that it makes no sense to me.
Whoa up. Did I miss the memo? Since when does a hobby have to make sense?
For the '83, it's all cosmetic. Performance has never been mentioned, at least by me, as a consideration.
Since purchased, the exhaust headers and crossover tubes have been a visual blight on the scooter. Buying new headers is out of the question. Too danged expensive and in a few months, they would look just like the original chrome headers on my '81... blued and pebble pitted.
Now that "makes no sense to me."
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Let's see a pic of the full bike to see how the wrapped pipes look!
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Let's see a pic of the full bike to see how the wrapped pipes look!
You'll have to wait until the Norton Peashooter mufflers arrive sometime this week.
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For the '83, it's all cosmetic. Performance has never been mentioned, at least by me, as a consideration.
Ok, I was wondering if that was the case. Mystery solved!
It's all a style thing.
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Still waiting on the Norton Peashooters mufflers to arrive but I went ahead and re-fitted the LS cans this afternoon. Was kinda interested in how the bike would perform sans balance pipes..
For those amongst us who have an interest in the potential performance changes wrought by the crossover balance pipe removals, I contracted with a local shop to get a definitive answer.
Not being able to find a local motorcycle dynometer, I contracted with a bike performance shop to run some operational tests, ie: horsepower, torque, carburetor tune - the whole enchilada. The shop's performance tuning expert is nicknamed Dino Butt. I thought it was just a misspelled word on his business card. He related that he could determine no changes of torque or horsepower, either with or without the balance pipes. I hope this answers all the questions and concerns. The test was kinda pricey; cost me six double cheeseburgers.
The only photo I could get of DINO Butt
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FDynoButtBiker.jpg&hash=f56156efcd544467c98c8280422fccb11fe1c226)
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Looks another project for next winter!
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Looking good there Monte,
The Wrap really looks the part , any change in the exhaust sound that you could notice ?
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Looking good there Monte,
The Wrap really looks the part , any change in the exhaust sound that you could notice ?
Thanks, rubi76. I had the original LS mufflers on the scooter when "Dino Butt" did his thing. This entire exhaust system project began when Soldier Son -presently 7 kilometers ESE of Kabul International- said the R65 was too quiet. He wanted it to sound like the '81 R65 with its EPCO stainless rorty muffs. I'll have to wait until this time next year to see what he thinks.
The new Norton Peashooters are on a UPS delivery truck somewhere in town and not expected until late this afternoon. They will have a healthier sound than the stockers. Hope to get them installed tomorrow.
Beginning Saturday and for the next eight days, the only motorcycle activity for me will be the occasional ride given to the grandkids. The Austin munchkins will take over our house and energies.
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Mufflers arrived on Wednesday about 1530 hours local. I had the boxes opened and the new, beautifully chromed and blingy Norton Peashooter repops temporarily plugged onto the header pipes within fifteen minutes. Sweet looking.
Thursday morning, I was all over this deal by 0930 and completed by 1245 hours.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65NortonPeashooter.jpg&hash=23e8cd2cdfcdac75a9bd3ec1c6efa8bf21ab8ac2)
Some notes regarding the mufflers:
1) As advertised, the muffler stubs are 38mm / 1.375". The fit onto the R65 header pipes is perfect. No beer can or brass strip shims needed.
2) Two tapped mounting lugs are positioned for the Norton motorcycle. As good fortune would have it, one lug lined up perfectly with the R65's aft muffler attach bracket.
3) It's a clear shot straight through these mufflers! There is an interior pipe about the diameter of the attach stub having three rows of many small louvers punched to catch some of the sound and circulate it through interior chambers. In your dreams, lads. These rascals will be rorty.
All that was required for attachment was to position both muffler's exhaust tips at the same height off the ground, scribe the location on the R65's bracket, centerpunch and drill one hole. Done.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FR65MufflerMount.jpg&hash=be07167276e9b34312827603944779db4b970f1e)
Plenty of meat for the muffler attach with just one bolt. The OEM muffler mount hardware is untouched and will be available if ever needed.
I found it simplified installing the mufflers by first slightly loosening the aft header pipe clamps and the exhaust nuts. After fitting the new mufflers, everything was snugged up a little at a time and then final torque.
During today's work, the weather went from Spring-like temps of low 70s to a sudden shift to north winds gusting to 40mph, rain and a 20+ degree drop in temps. So, I have not yet had an opportunity to ride with the new modified exhaust system nor score any full bike photos. Soon though.
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All seems to be working out with the new wrap and exhaust [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif] I hope the weather down there warms up quickly because we need the ride/audio report with the pictures. Cheers to you and the family. D2
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Whoa up. Did I miss the memo? Since when does a hobby have to make sense?
Amen to that! Can I get a witness? I see a lot of mods done to classic bikes, most of which I would never consider doing. But hey, it's a hobby/passion for most of us, and who are we do say it's wrong. Keep doing what you're doing Monte. Besides, it's a labor of love for your son who at this very moment is in harms way for all of us. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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May not be the right forum but Dad, you are the best father I could ever wish for. All this started from a quick sidebar conversation about mods. Can't say thank you enough for all you do for our family. Love ya old man.
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Can't say thank you enough for all you do
We can't thank {{YOU}} enough for what you do for us and our Country. You're the reason we get to putter around with these bikes without the bad guys on our shores!!
Thanks again
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As they might say in Follywood, "That's an exhaust wrap!" And so it is for my latest R65 adventure.
Rains went away and right now it's 80+ degrees, clear and calm. Grand kids can fend for themselves. Time to ride.
After the x-overectomy of the exhaust header crossover tubes, pitiful me can't tell any difference in the '83s operational performance. Nada. The bike starts right up, idles as it should, excellent mid-range ops, pulls like a miniature freight train and still hits the ton without strain. Did it just now...
The header wrap material maybe reduces a little noise at the front end but the rorty Norton peashooters make up for it. Unoffensive exhaust note when puttering through the neighborhoods at 4K revs and below. But twist the loud handle and run it up toward 7K and the music plays. Certainly sounds healthy.
This is what the '83 looked like when I brought it home. Hair-lipped front fender, dented tank, cracked side panels, torn seat cover, dented aft tail piece and thick, orange peel paint. A homely step-child but a good runner.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2F83R6501.jpg&hash=89d12d592ff7148d64b8a9a62411f174520eef59)
Today, her body enhancements and skin treatments have her all buffed up and purty, in a good way. I think the Sergeant will approve.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2F83exhaust02a.jpg&hash=686486ede5f3438fb6337159ab7096761d5ba3e4)
For those interested in parts sources and expenses for the exhaust project, here ya go:
EMGO Repop Norton Commando Peashooter Mufflers
P3 Motorcycle Parts and Accessories
$159.98 pair w/free shipping
eBay store http://tinyurl.com/6p9n2hw
JEGS 1-in x 50-ft Tan Fiberglass Header Wrap
JEGS High Performance
$19.99 plus shipping
http://tinyurl.com/7thtz59
10/pkg 8-in Stainless Steel Zip Ties
Lowe’s Home Improvement
$4.81
Welding
$30.00
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Ya done good, Monte! She is coming right along!
Now all you need is a second disc up front...
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That is great, Monte. You are a wonderful person. Your son is one lucky guy.
Are those Fiamms under there? 8-)
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... Now all you need is a second disc up front...
The two disc vs single disc topic has been well thrashed on this forum. ::)
... Are those Fiamms under there?
And they are freakin' loud, brudda! Both R65s get the cage drivers attention in a BIG way. I did add a new relay circuit to both scooters to handle the additional load.
I sourced the honkers from the same outfit in Arizona where I buy my Cabriolet bits. If anyone drives a German car, this is a good parts resource; often 30% of retail. Been shopping with 'em for over twelve years. http://www.autohausaz.com/