The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: azcycle on October 07, 2011, 01:20:44 PM
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It has been 371 days since I heard the heart-sinking grinding/buzzing sound (accompanied with noticeable lack of GO!) that told me my r65 suffered from stripped input splines (I assume). Buying a new home and the money/rennovations that has needed has put my r65 on the backburner.
Two days ago, I was happy to finally see a check come in the mail from one of my website design freelance projects. That check, along with the SWMBO's "You should use that money to get the bmw fixed..." has now enabled me to have the transmission rebuilt by a local beemer expert who comes highly recommended for old airheads.
I'm also convinced there will be many "while I'm there..." type of side-projects so I've put aside enough cash (I hope!) to cover the list of what I want to do. I hope to have it all complete and back on the road by November 15th, which will be the 2-year anniversary of my father-in-law passing, from whom I inherited the r65.
For backstory:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1285784659/0
Other than the transmission repair, I intend to get my fingers dirty and knuckles skinned by doing the work myself. Here is what I intend to do:
- Have transmission rebuilt fresh.
- Install new clutch (I assume it will be toast from the spline strip?) We'll see...
- Replace Oil Pump cover gasket.
- Replace main seal.
- Replace oil pan gasket and clean/repaint oil pan.
- Clean/rebuild carbs (I'm sure they need it, now).
- Clean/paint valve covers and replace leaking gaskets.
- Replace Oil Pressure sender unit.
- Lube final drive splines.
- Check/Replace Oil Breather Valve with Reed-style if needed. (And figure out why oil is weeping from the starter motor cavity.
- Replace cracking rubber brake lines/replace with stainless steel.
- Replace fuse block with new blade-style fuses.
- Buy/install new speedometer - Vapor probably - along with finding a way to attractively mount the ignition key/cylinder.
So that is where I'm at! I know most of you have done many of these procedures and I think I'm familiar enough to bumble my way through it without too many problems. I have all the specialty tools I may need, downloaded many "how to" articles from here and elsewhere, have the Clymer manual, know the pitfalls to avoid ...
... and just have to START.
But I hope you'll feel free to chime in as I post up photos, document my progress for the greater good, and ask questions. Photos to come soon... plan on starting teardown this weekend.
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OK! I an defiantly NOT selling that spare traney I have now!!!! ack!
But I'm really glad you got your bike back and running! 371 day, argh! :-[
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OK! I an defiantly NOT selling that spare traney I have now!!!! ack!
But I'm really glad you got your bike back and running! 371 day, argh! :-[
Oh, it ain't running yet. :'(
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Not much interest in my mini-teardown, huh? :)
I was perusing Ebay yesterday, wondering if anything interesting would turn up. I found a set of stock, original mufflers for the r65 and, tempted, clicked through to the auction. To my surprise, the seller lived right here in Tucson, and the auction said he was parting out a 1983 r65 and had many other parts. I emailed him and through a couple back and forth Ebay messages, he invited me out to his place today to take a look at what I wanted.
Drove up there this morning and was blown away. I wish I had taken photos of his home, but didn't want to come across creepy. But the guy knew his BMW and had pretty much any and every make. I saw r50's, r69s's, a couple r90's, and hundreds of parts hanging everywhere. Bikes from basket-case all the way to fully restored. Just gorgeous. It truly was a treasure chest of vintage airheads. Guy was a fount of knowledge and really helped cement my confidence in what I am about to undertake with the r65. Also turns out that the guy knew my father-in-law and said "John was a f**king mad scientist with a welder." Yep, that was my FIL. He invited me to a weekly vintage bike night at one of the local micro-breweries, gave me his business card and said that he'd be glad to help me anytime. So what started out as a possible muffler score turned into much more, including a local mentor.
The mufflers had the same cracks at the mounting tabs as my original set does, so no-go there. But I scored this for $300. Exterior could be in better shape but it will clean up, it shifts through all gears smoothly, no looseness...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-W4ejELblJVU/TpDqfxojKQI/AAAAAAAAAUQ/s0rAs264jVY/s800/transmission.JPG)
... and the splines are in great shape:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-czjNp_kEA40/TpDqgLxVtXI/AAAAAAAAAUU/zpx1o9UfUHM/s800/splines.JPG)
So now I have TWO transmissions. I'll drop this new chunk 'o metal in and get her up and riding right away, cheap-like. What funds were going to JUST rebuilding my transmission will now cover everything... including new clutch. In the meantime, I can save up a bit and get the original tranny fixed.
Oh, I also picked this up for $100, in near-perfect condition. I know it wasn't on my original list but my original front rim has a good sized ding in it and is a tiny bit out-of-round, which I think causes the slight wobble/bump at 45mph. Too bad the rubber is dry-rotted/cracked because it has some good tread on it.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v3JUnNdytwM/TpDqhNX1w6I/AAAAAAAAAUY/_LT-lNaxVy4/s800/front-wheel.JPG)
So here she sits, awaiting my wrenches. Not sure I'll get to it today, though. Got an emergency freelance project in...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cDF04ttttxk/TpDqi7jM8eI/AAAAAAAAAUc/0RGEVipcQ4Y/s800/bmw.JPG)
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You got a great deal all around on those parts .
Just in time for the best riding conditions of the year are finally here !!!!
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Azcycle
I'm interested... ::)
Keep the story going, I'm a loooooong way behind you on my (major) teardown and complete restoration.
Cheers
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Graeme,I would get the wheel checked out by someone really familiar with the bikes as it looks like a pre-recall one without the strengthening webs.I'm more than willing to be proved wrong,but I've just checked my '83 RS and '85 R65 and they both have the webs. Glyn.
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The 18 inch wheels used on the R65, weren't in the recall, only the 19 inch wheels .
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Do you know why that is, Bob, as my '85 twinshock has webs on both wheels,and a friend's '81 model also? Glyn.
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I'll say that at least in North America, the recall that was issued for BMW wheels, was for 19 inch wheels only .
I'll see if I can find the recall as it was issued here, but I believe it was for a specific month or months of manufacture, not all wheels produced were involved in the recall, but BMW would replace all wheels of that size and design .
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My apologies,I've just done what I should have in the first place and Googled the recall.All is clear.Thank you Bob.
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This is all I could find in a quick search .
http://robfrankham.co.uk/bike/dreaded_bmw_front_wheel_recall.htm
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Ha ha! Exactly the same thing I found.Thanks.
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Even though my '81 R65 isn't effected, I give the wheels a quick inspection every time I check the tire pressures .
Gotta keep in mind the age of the vehicle, most people don't own/operate a motor vehicle approaching 30 years of age, if you are not the original owner, no way to tell how the vehicle was been treated by previous owners.
If you remove my oilhead bike and Z3 from the equation, the average age of my other vehicles is 28 years, I have the oldest 'fleet' in the neighboorhood !!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Here's the original wheel recall document which clarifies which models were affected. Only 19"wheels are mentioned.
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Sorry for the diversion in thread (and model) content here, but...
Not to seem wreckless or playing devil's advocate; but - anyone out there have personal experience with a failed 19" snowflake front wheel??? Anecdotal evidence doesn't count. I hear "it has been reported.." quite often.
I have +60k miles on my original 1978 R100/7 19" front snowflake with no problems or evidence of failure. Hit many potholes and experienced some pretty rough road surfaces.
As some have stated I try to inspect all critical components regularly and make it a practice not to jump curbs and curb stops. I also don't run the bike at 100mph at extended intervals. Not sure if my /7 will even go 100mph. I have no proof but my inclination is to imagine this recall may have developed from an isolated single incident (maybe in Europe) where a possible abused front wheel failed resulting in a costly legal settlement or litigation for BMW. Just a wild guess with absolutely no supporting data. Maybe an easy protection device from any possible further liability issues. Seems like there's a higher interval of final drives and wheel bearings failing causing injury rather than snowflakes coming apart. It's my personal decision to use what I have, let's not misinterpret this as me advising or suggesting in any way those who have this wheel not to have it changed-out as the factory recommends. That's completely your decision and I respect that.
I seem to remember hearing somewhere "no 2 snowflakes are alike".
Sorry to sound disgruntled about this but I do get a little irritated answering the same question whenever someone spots my original 19" snowflake front wheel. "Hey did you know you have a wheel that's been recalled there buddy", yea, I'm aware of that, thanks for letting me know. By the way; you ever seen one that failed?
Sorry guys, I feel better now, back to the original programming for this thread. My apologies Administrator.
-Mike V. / San Diego
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Mike
If nothing else I think your original snowflake looks a lot better than the revised one with all that extra webbing.
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I'm sure that the number of failed wheels wasn't very large .
They may have found some variations in materials used, or the manufacturing process and decided to err on the side that would cause the least harm to them .
I remember seeing someone post a picture here of a failed 18 inch R65 wheel in the same place that the 19 inch wheels did .
Anything that can happen, will !!!
There are no guarantees in life, like someone said, none of us a going to get out this (life) alive !!!
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Thanks, all! Yep, there were other parts there that I was incredibly tempted to buy... even the entire r65 engine. But I really don't NEED another entire engine. Was also tempted to get the original speedometer/tachometer but again... probably end up costing me more in the long run. I'll get a Vapor and be done with it.
Spent the afternoon not on the r65 but rather on digging up an old stump/root that is slowly raising a huge section of our backyard tile patio. Though I did manage to START to get to the r65: Removed the fuel tank, battery, and the air filter system.
Will get to the rest this week sometime. Although I'm 99% sure I'm going to need a new clutch, I'm going to wait to order until I actually SEE the clutch bits.
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Keep it coming, Graeme. We're interested... but not so much about your patio issue. ::)
Monte
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Yeah, just the bike stuff, I have enough patio problems of my own without reliving them on here... :'(
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I simply can't believe no one here wants photos of my torn-up backyard.
;D
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I simply can't believe no one here wants photos of my torn-up backyard. ;D
OK... You may post ONE, but only one, patio photo as I hates yard work in all its forms. Astro Turf is a gift from God to those of us with a love/hate relationship with a gasoline-powered lawn mower. [smiley=furious3.gif]
Monte
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No, I won't do that to you. Instead, I will bore you with the greasy, oily innards of my r65 engine. I got a bit deeper into disassembly this evening before I lost the sunset. (Yes, I REALLY need to get lights in my new garage).
Question for you experienced folks: Is the starter cavity really supposed to be this oily? The cavity weep holes were very weepy and I intend to remove the starter and clean everything thoroughly... but is this a sign of something not quite right? Or is it just normal for this engine that hasn't been opened in ???. I'm thinking the breather valve tube came loose from the airbox piece, so it was just venting oily air right into the starter cavity. Because it wasn't connected when I removed the box... it was as you see in the photo.
Notice the oil weeping out of the foreground transmission bolt hole. When I removed that bolt, it was just sopping wet with oil. Normal?
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dM22lREoJLs/TpTovV80adI/AAAAAAAAAUk/QgobBR3mdAY/s640/DSC03782.JPG)
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The hose you see in the area, is the crankcase breather hose, not too uncommon to have it crack/break due to age and heat .
Check the clamp on the top of the breather valve and see if it is tight .
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The hose you see in the area, is the crankcase breather hose, not too uncommon to have it crack/break due to age and heat .
Check the clamp on the top of the breather valve and see if it is tight .
It was nice and tight but looks a bit old. Will replace. In looking through my Clymer manual, I'm noticing a few missing bits and pieces from the "air injection system." Particularly the valve, reed valve, and their connecting hoses.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TsP617Af4K8/TpT0UyR4jNI/AAAAAAAAAVM/-MmEa0hyswI/s800/air003.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SUbP8lw3oqk/TpTxiNllJtI/AAAAAAAAAU4/q9-34siugRA/s640/DSC03787.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fgb7mF8XwIE/TpTxi4_4lkI/AAAAAAAAAVA/uzQfwKa5kKM/s640/DSC03788.JPG)
The two small vacuum lines that come from the carbs come to a "t" intersection which is supposed to connect to the reed valve. Mine was just stuck into the airbox and not connected to anything. Interesting. Do I need to rework any of this?
Looks like I'm missing #1-5, #7-8, #10. The holes for #7-8 were plugged.
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I removed mine about 28 years ago, bike still passed Arizona emissions testing without it .
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Good. Then I can just leave as-is.
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If you remove my oilhead bike and Z3 from the equation, the average age of my other vehicles is 28 years, I have the oldest 'fleet' in the neighboorhood !!!!!!!! Grin Grin Grin
Well I am not in your neighbourhood but my fleet averages 42.5 years of age, beat that youngster!
greetings from a sunny but cold north
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CPPvuWIdJFU/TpaH0leKHoI/AAAAAAAAQaI/HUEL9RgnvbQ/s105/20111310.jpg)
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Trolle, for my bikes, I've got 44.375, but when I get the R69 going, it will increase to over 45. The R65 is my 3rd newest bike (of 8)!
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The hose you see in the area, is the crankcase breather hose, not too uncommon to have it crack/break due to age and heat .
Check the clamp on the top of the breather valve and see if it is tight .
It was nice and tight but looks a bit old. Will replace.
Be sitting down when you check the price for the BMW OEM breather hose! Big $$$$$ [smiley=cry.gif]
Motobins sells a nice repop for far less cash. Royal Air Mail gets it to you quickly and even with the exchange rate, you'll be w-a-y ahead on cost.
Monte
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Mine's all cracked to hell and needs replacing, but the big bucks they demand for that little curved rubber hose is rediculous! How much does Motobins want for theirs?
Also, I used to have weeping from the starter area drains and figured it was because of that breather hose. Probably was, but since re-ringing the bike, that's all gone away.
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$18.00 at the 'Bins v $41.00 OEM
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=11_1712&hg=11&fg=10
Monte
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I just checked this morning on the A&S BMW parts site, the price they had was $72US for the hose/tube !!!!!
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Seriously? Motobins is HALF the price of BikeBandit when looking at clutch parts. Looks like I'll be purchasing from them, even with shipping!
Clutch question. While I haven't actually opened it up to see if the clutch plate has stripped splines, I'm 99% positive that is the problem. Looking at Motobins... they've got a "Quality Italian Made" friction plate for $58 US vs. the OEM $84 model.
Anyone have any thoughts on the "italian" made clutch friction plate... or should I just stick with OEM BWM bits?
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Seriously? Motobins is HALF the price of BikeBandit when looking at clutch parts. Looks like I'll be purchasing from them, even with shipping!
Clutch question. While I haven't actually opened it up to see if the clutch plate has stripped splines, I'm 99% positive that is the problem. Looking at Motobins... they've got a "Quality Italian Made" friction plate for $58 US vs. the OEM $84 model.
Anyone have any thoughts on the "italian" made clutch friction plate... or should I just stick with OEM BWM bits?
Some of the Motobins repops are just fine. I have their bargain priced, Italian-made neutral switch that fits in the bottom of the transmission and it's all metal; no plastic and no weeping oil as with the BMW OEMs.
That said, I'd would stay with the OEM clutch parts rather than a mix n' match collection. Check eBay for some OEM bargains on clutch bits. The few bucks saved on the clutch job won't be worth the performance and peace of mind that comes with a long-term item such as the Airhead clutch with all OEM parts.
As the LA taxi driver said to Burt Munro/Anthony Hopkins in the most excellent flic, The World's Fastest Indian. "Open your wallet old man and let the moths out."
;D Monte
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That was how I was leaning, too. Thanks for confirming my thoughts. No time to work tonight but I hope to really get in there this weekend and get it torn down.
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Update!
First off, I have to say just amazed I am at how EASY this bike is to work on. My brief venture into fixing up a basketcase 1976 Honda Goldwing was much different. Granted, it hadn't run in who knows how many years, while my r65 has only been down for one but still... I've got to appreciate the simplicity and great design of this machine.
So anyway, spent Saturday morning tearing the r65 down. One hangup I had was that I couldn't get the swingarm back far enough to slip a piece of wood in to hold it. The custom saddlebags were interfering so I ended up removing the entire rear end. Good anyway as I want to re-grease the final drive splines. Transmission came out quite easily!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DrWGLODWo_E/TpsS30OAbeI/AAAAAAAAAWI/w3aVFGQtFow/s640/IMG_0535.JPG)
And it confirmed my suspicion. The input splines were stripped. While obviously ruined on the transmissison side, they were better than I thought. They actually stripped out on one side more than the other.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EGDnmYLN1ZI/TpsSuPy_qSI/AAAAAAAAAVY/IbzE5LfZHL4/s640/IMG_0529.JPG)
But the clutch was shredded smooth. Too bad, as the clutch measured well within it's specs... still had a lot of life left in it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3Omxq2VroY8/TpsSufyeDGI/AAAAAAAAAVo/TBRwAxwIDyo/s640/IMG_0530.JPG)
And lots of grit:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-F6LP-7LGrwc/TpsTKon3ykI/AAAAAAAAAXk/DL8-BaFbJ4A/s640/IMG_0546.JPG)
Other clutch pieces were in good shape, though obviously streaked with lots of grease/oil. Not sure if I can reuse them. I might just buy everything new.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Pi74FMf21ds/TpsS8-wn6GI/AAAAAAAAAWo/Xxx2ELvX18w/s640/IMG_0538.JPG)
Now the potentially bad part. When I removed the flywheel, the teeth on the BACK side (engine facing side) had been chewed up. I can't find where it was rubbing but it was obviously rubbing, and fresh, as the metal was bright. However, the damage wasn't even all the way 'round the flywheel. It was worse on one side. Bolts were snug, as they should be and I could detect no movement when it was mounted. Have any of you seen this type of damage?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aO1mi0OEgNw/TpsTGspjvOI/AAAAAAAAAXQ/h7NZPPiFR6o/s640/IMG_0544.JPG)
Finally, I removed the oil pump housing cover and noticed that there were rub marks on the inside. Is this normal? (This is after I removed the old, squared-off O-ring and cleaned it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FOo8rm-L1ok/TpsTKqh11CI/AAAAAAAAAXg/QpHUfSI9lnY/s640/IMG_0547.JPG)
Also dropped the oil pan and scrubbed it clean. There were a few pieces of something in the bottom of the pan. Not metal... slivers of plastic, I'd say. Four or five, about 1/4" long and brittle. They crumbled when I rolled them in my fingers. Thoughts?
So, it's obvious I'm going to have to buy an entire new clutch assembly. All this I've read about putting everything 120 degrees apart due to weight fluctuations. Will the new pieces I buy be marked on the heavy side so I know? Otherwise, how the heck do I find out where the heavy side is of each piece? Or is it REALLY that important ... ?
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Great shots and very helpful, thanks!
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The teeth on the flywheel, might be from contact with the starter gear, the gear might not be coming out all the way or not going back in when the starter is not running, lacking lubricant, etc...
Oil pump cover doesn't look bad, the pump rotor is a close fit to the cover, can you feel any grooves in the cover ?
What color are/were the plastic pieces, black, if they were, they may be from the black plastic rub block that contacts the timing chain to tension it .
You can clean the plates and spring to get the oil off of them .
Check them for trueness, by placing a straight egde across them and see if they are worn or warped .
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Your BMW oil pump cover looks like every air-cooled V-Dub I've opened up. The pump gears actually rub against the cover so the wear pattern you see is "normal" for our tractor motors.
Tend to agree with Bob Roller's comment on the flywheel teeth. The start gear may not have been fully retracting. Possibly held proud by excess hardened grease. The flywheel will likely not need replacing. Perhaps dress down sharp edges...
Your transmission and clutch disc will be tasty scare photos for folks asking about the necessity of lubricating trans and final drive splines.
Monte
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I can most definitely feel the worn areas in the oil pump cover, so I'll replace it. I measured across both the pressure plate and pressure ring for any warping and I can't seem to find any. My level sat, well... level. Good to know I won't have to replace everything.
I'll file the burred edges off the flywheel and leave it as-is. The worn areas really aren't TOO bad but it was disconcerting. I do see that it is the starter teeth not fully disengaging. The starter teeth look to be in okay shape as well, but I'll take a closer look once I remove it.
And speaking of removing the starter. Is there ANY way to remove the starter without having to remove the whole front alternator/timing cover piece? I've already got the crank blocked and would prefer to leave it that way for now. But if I can get in and remove the starter while I wait for my new clutch parts and without removing the front part of the engine... that'd be great.
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All you need to do, is to remove the top cover on the engine, there's two allen head bolts holding it on .
The cover can be a bit fiddly to get off, it's a tight fit, couple of taps with a rubber hammer should do it .
If it is difficult, file down the ends a bit so it goes back on easier .
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Ah, I've got the top cover off and the two bolts loosened. I thought there was a third bolt up front under the front cover. Thanks!
Just dropped some $$ at Motobins UK. New friction plate and spring, miscellaneous bolts, oil pump cover, clutch alignment tool, and the oil breather tube. *whew* Also ordered some new stainless braided brake lines. While I'm waiting for everything, I'll strip/repaint the valve covers.
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Trailtech Vapor (with light-filled dashboard) is on it's way! I'm brainstorming a mounting bracket that will also incorporate the ignition key switch and a custom charging light. :)
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Not much work on the BMW this weekend, as I'm waiting for parts to arrive from various parts of the world. The Trailtech Vapor arrived and I was mighty tempted to tear into THAT project, but I think it needs to wait until I get 'er back on the road.
But I did spend 3-hours cleaning layers of grease and dirt off the rear of the bike, as well as scraping of the petrified and yet very stubborn oil pan gasket. Man, that was a horrible job... lying on my side, neck straining, trying to scrape that gasket off with various tools.
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as well as scraping of the petrified and yet very stubborn oil pan gasket
Hi that sounds like very hard work. Have you considered using a gasket removing aid. I use a product made by CRC called Gasket Stripper. It softens up the old gasket as well as any sealing compounds. Brilliant stuff and saves so much hard work and scrapping that hard could damage the surfaces. Good luck.
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...and scrapping that hard could damage the surfaces. Good luck.
Adrian makes a good point.
When I'm faced with a gasket removal chore, I also use a chemical remover to soften the old gasket. Afterwards, a wooden or plastic scraper is all I use. Just one little "oopsy" with a metal blade and you've created a potential leak.
Monte
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Thanks guys.... I thought about that about 50% through the job but didn't want to run out and grab some gasket remover. I finished the job okay and was VERY careful with my scrapers. I might go over the edge with a very fine grain of sandpaper to remove any small imperfections I caused but I can't feel anything with my fingernail, so I think I'll be good.
All you need to do, is to remove the top cover on the engine, there's two allen head bolts holding it on .
Regarding the starter. I could NOT get it removed, Bob. I removed the two bolts and disconnected two of the three wires I could reach, but it was still held in by some sort of bracket at the front of the motor. I could remove one small bolt and push the bracket away a bit, but it still was held by something. I could lift the back (gear side) of the starter a few inches but it definitely was not coming out. Thoughts?
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I've used single edge razor blades, they won't 'dig' into the metal and break easily, that with the mentioned gasket remover makes quick work of gaskets .
If you do use a gasket remover, spray it on, leave it for 30 minutes or so, then spray another 'coat' on it .
I don't know about all gasket removers, the few that I've used had methylene chloride as the active ingredient, needless to say if you've ever used it, it's not ' friendly' to hands, fingers, eyes ........
Use heavy rubber gloves .
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My shipment from Motobins UK just arrived... shiny new clutch bits! So I'm just waiting on the guide ring o-ring and I'll start reassembly Saturday morning! Once the transmission is back on, I will remove the front cover and see if I can get the starter out of there for a clean/lube.
Then clean/rebuild carbs.
Then install/bleed new brake lines.
Then (hopefully) VRoom!
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Once again I didn't quite get as much done as I wanted, as I was thwarted by the transmission neutral switch/ground wiring loom. As I was putting the new transmission back in, I noticed the neutral switch wires were twisted and nicked, and one just broke off in my hand. So I've got to order that before I can get the transmission back on.
Question regarding the switch wires: One is obviously a ground and one is brown with a black line. Which goes to which tab on the neutral switch? Everything was so filthy when I pulled them off I didn't notice where each went. Does it matter?
But... I did manage to get the main seal and oil pump cover installed.
Setting the seal depth:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zwm9sp-wa5I/Tq3Hi6KFb8I/AAAAAAAAAbc/D4IEVQzQhV0/s640/IMG_0558.JPG)
Pulling the old seal out. I noticed that the "old" seal is the exact same type as the new seal I purchased, so it had been redone in the past.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FmlYucDPbd0/Tq3Hig7qAYI/AAAAAAAAAbY/6rzsG1cIDU4/s640/IMG_0559.JPG)
More evidence it had been done in the past. A previous owner nicked the inside face a bit removing the old seal. It was definitely noticeable and I wasn't confident I could do a nice job adding some metal repair putty stuff. So I sanded it very gently with a high-grain sandpaper until I could barely feel it. Hope that is good enough.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZUxaEF4YFMM/Tq3HkVtICpI/AAAAAAAAAbo/7tZm9m2YRAs/s640/IMG_0560.JPG)
New main seal seated:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yClUo4dK6fQ/Tq3Hovm5uDI/AAAAAAAAAb4/Rke22HPxDFU/s640/IMG_0561.JPG)
New oil pump cover on the right doesn't have the same exterior design:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LnPKRxspEgE/Tq3HoLDcirI/AAAAAAAAAbw/ljQQ3C-yS5E/s640/IMG_0562.JPG)
New oil pump cover, guide ring O-ring, and main seal in place. I had a bit of a problem with the lower right oil pump cover bolt. The threads at the very edge of the hole were damaged/cross-threaded and I couldn't get any bolt to start correctly. It would catch and immediately angle slightly. I didn't want to damage the threads so I bought a thread tap and gently screwed it in. Worked like a charm!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vC52ccLKWec/Tq3HsvH449I/AAAAAAAAAcM/fUbR4H8C5SA/s640/IMG_0564.JPG)
New friction plate and spring:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p8zykxL4Smk/Tq3HsRN35vI/AAAAAAAAAcI/am5Tf_O79tU/s640/IMG_0565.JPG)
And I didn't take any photos but I got the clutch assembly together, used the alignment tool (glad I had that!) and got it all together. I didn't actually have a hex bolt fitting for my torque wrench so I just tightened them down by hand to what I thought was about 10lbs of torque. Since I have to wait a week for the new wiring loom, I'll probably pick up a hex set for my ratchet and make sure I got the bolts down well enough before I button up the transmission.
The rest of the day was spent cleaning grimy parts, ready to assemble. I should have it all together by the end of next weekend if all goes well!
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Doesn't matter which way you put the wires on .
Is that seal installing tool, from Ed Korn / Cycle Works ?
I need to get one .
To remove the seal, did you drill two holes in the seal then use two screws to force it out ?
I've been using an automotive body dent puller, it has a sheet metal screw on the end, drill two small holes in the seal, thread the screw end into the seal, then you use the slide hammer to pull the seal out .
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Nice work Graeme, great pictures.
A great time to clean up and paint the flywheel timing marks with white paint.
http://tinyurl.com/3lm8zl2
You may want to consider a very very thin coat of HondaMoly60 on the pressure plate rim and carrier contact points. My clutch assembly now operates with a huge improvement.
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Thanks for the info regarding the neutral switch polarity. The seal installing tool I purchased from Jeff Trapp at NorthwoodAirheads.com (http://www.northwoodsairheads.com/Tools.html) along with a few other tools I've used on this job. They've been quite handy! Yes, I drilled two holes in the seal, screwed in a couple screws, and used my slide hammer to knock the seal out. The slide hammer came with a tip attachment that looked like the forked side of a hammer. Came out quite easily... a couple knocks on each screw and it popped right out.
Nice work Graeme, great pictures. A great time to clean up and paint the flywheel timing marks with white paint.
You may want to consider a very very thin coat of HondaMoly60 on the pressure plate rim and carrier contact points. My clutch assembly now operates with a huge improvement.
Thanks! Done, and done! The OT mark was only partially punched, so the O of OT wasn't even visible... it was so shallow it wouldn't hold any white. But the T and the alignment mark were deep enough to hold some white so that's good enough. I also made sure to coat the pressure plate rim and carrier contact points with a tiny bit of Moly60.
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Graeme,
Curious about the depth you set the new seal at. I struggled with trying to figure out how deep to set the new type seal until I inspected the seal and guide ring surface closely. I ended up setting the outer face of my seal flush with the case with only a fraction of inset. Seems to me that the contact point of the seal on the guide ring is so great it shouldn't really matter much as long as you use a conservative approach. I've had no trouble with mine after assembly. No leaks, no drips, no errors.
I also used the same installation tool and a couple of drywall screws to remove the old seal, along with the clutch alignment tool. The job turned out easier than expected. New clutch carrier bolts and washers?
Keep us in the loop of the installation and assembly. Good stuff.
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Graeme,
Curious about the depth you set the new seal at. I struggled with trying to figure out how deep to set the new type seal until I inspected the seal and guide ring surface closely. I ended up setting the outer face of my seal flush with the case with only a fraction of inset. Seems to me that the contact point of the seal on the guide ring is so great it shouldn't really matter much as long as you use a conservative approach. I've had no trouble with mine after assembly. No leaks, no drips, no errors.
I also used the same installation tool and a couple of drywall screws to remove the old seal, along with the clutch alignment tool. The job turned out easier than expected. New clutch carrier bolts and washers?
Keep us in the loop of the installation and assembly. Good stuff.
Thanks! Other than the damaged threads of one of the oil pump cover holes, mine has been smooth sailing, too. All bolts (and washers where applicable) are brand new, and blue locktite was used on the oil pump cover and the clutch bolts. No locktite on the flywheel bolts, though they were coated with a very light film of engine oil per Snowbum and Clymers. Oil pump and clutch bolts torqued down to about 7-10lbs and the flywheel are about 70lbs. The max of my torque wrench was 70 so that is where they're at.
Regarding the depth of the main seal: I didn't measure the old seal, as I was intending to use the main seal install tool I got from Northwood Airheads. It's a little pricey at $40 but it makes installation a snap. See the very first photo I posted above, that shows the tool.
You basically use three flywheel bolts to snug the tool against the old soon-to-be-removed seal. You then use a hex wrench to turn the five small hex bolts in until they bottom on the face of the guide ring. That sets the seal depth. Pull tool off, then old seal. Install new seal, just barely setting it as even as you can by hand. Place seal tool on top and again, using flywheel tools (I used all five but I've seen it done with only three) tighten the tool down until the hex bolts again bottom on the face of the guide ring. As you tighten, it evenly pushes the seal into place exactly where the old seal was. Super easy!
EDIT: I just re-read your post and you said you used the same installation tool so you know what I'm talking about. I'll leave it for future folks who may want to know about it. I really didn't pay attention to the depth. As you wrote... just barely beyond flush seems reasonable, and there does seem to be plenty of room there.
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Graeme,
The tools I used were purchased from Dan Neiner at Cycle Works (via Ed Korn). The seal installation tool has three threaded allen screws used as adjustable depth guages (very similar to yours). I measured the depth of the old seal before removing it by inserting the seal tool and threading the screws to mate with the existing seal face. As excercise more than anything else. Since the two seals are completely different in material and construction I was more careful to make observations of both and their contact points to the guide ring. Since I found only a very minute wear mark on my guide ring I wasn't too concerned about the depth of the seal. Just curious how you approached it. Here's a picture of the tool I have from Cycle Works. All very well designed products and easy to use.
Here's more photos...
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Thinking this thread may eventually need to be archived in the R65 Technical FAQs. Good stuff all around. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
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A very successful day working on the BMW! New transmission installed and filled with fresh gear oil, oil change, new oil pan gasket, final drive cleaned/greased/installed, rear brake cleaned and reinstalled, airbox, battery and seat installed.
White crayon on the timing marks. As I mentioned, the OT was only partially punched so only part of the T and the alignment line above it were deep enough to hold any crayon.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3kfk1xYICGc/TrXf2wVkBUI/AAAAAAAAAmY/67cm3KUH7RI/s640/IMG_0578.JPG)
New transmission splines greased with Honda Moly60, and prepared to get mated up with the new clutch.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-__MZn8wGm68/TrXf7ciFzjI/AAAAAAAAAmo/8Flf_5x8hL8/s640/IMG_0579.JPG)
Old airbox breather vent (right) and new (left):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ddwEFUVL8hY/TrXgAitQ32I/AAAAAAAAAm4/srFPcFYKUoQ/s640/IMG_0581.JPG)
Mmmm.... new transmission. New oil breather hose, and neutral switch wiring loom.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7fVLDTor_SI/TrXf_6WaBuI/AAAAAAAAAmw/kYMNRpAEk1Q/s640/IMG_0582.JPG)
BEFORE. The r65 had a really terrible rear brake... barely even slowed the bike, let alone stop it. I think a previous owner (hopefully not my FIL) used the wrong spline grease, and it got flung everywhere, soaking into the brake pads, etc.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-J_NV6vzaIec/TrXgl8dveVI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/pKPNAPeXlGc/s640/IMG_0584.JPG)
AFTER a good cleaning of the brake drum. Also lightly scuffed the drum surface with sandpaper. Also took the time to clean the wheel and spokes. Ugh, that was tedious.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dTNVr6X00W0/TrXgt_zHKtI/AAAAAAAAAno/AsggP032iO8/s640/IMG_0589.JPG)
Final drive with good splines and very dirty, contaminated brake shoes. The pads were dark and REALLY glazed over.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-etE33pTkreY/TrXguFjcTWI/AAAAAAAAAnw/dALVewkDkd8/s640/IMG_0587.JPG)
After a good cleaning. Degreased the brake shoes and scuffed them up a bit with sandpaper. Honda moly60 applied.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wW2Dx3iqXdA/TrXgsjLdASI/AAAAAAAAAng/_D312sq8PYE/s640/IMG_0590.JPG)
Torquing down the driveshaft bolts to the transmission output, with blue locktite, and NEW bolts, of course. The brake felt SO much better and I could actually lock the rear wheel with the pedal. I couldn't do that before because of the brake shoes.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BWeWhWtaBF4/TrXgx7oqs-I/AAAAAAAAAn4/rzT3JxCRVaY/s640/IMG_0592.JPG)
Not much space in there. The special tool I purchased just for this purpose was WELL worth it!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K5RTQObp_c4/TrXg4apqVKI/AAAAAAAAAoI/-Sih320O1vI/s640/IMG_0593.JPG)
"New" transmission shifted okay, but I drained the old fluid (was nice and clean) and the drain bolt showed no significant buildup of metal shavings. Only found a couple small slivers. When reinstalling the shifter and footrest, I did notice that the gear shifter input seal MIGHT be slightly weeping gear oil. Will keep an eye on it.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S91agq0qWEU/TrXg23T5agI/AAAAAAAAAoA/26UNxemY0RU/s640/IMG_0595.JPG)
She's almost ready to roll! Just have to clean/rebuild the carbs. Though I plan on installing new front brake lines and repainting the valve covers, too. It was such a nice feeling to be able to shift smoothly through the gears and see the rear wheel turn!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O0Qt7FbbIkE/TrXg42mtr_I/AAAAAAAAAoQ/AvCG_6cO55A/s640/IMG_0598.JPG)
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Nice work AZ, thanks for all the descriptions and photos. Dave 2
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Thanks, Dave.
Not a lot of progress today, but I did get the carbs disassembled and cleaned thoroughly. As I mentioned, the guts were cleaner than I expected them to be but they certainly needed attention.
What first greeted me... a nicely stripped screw which I bunged up even worse. Managed to get it removed through lots of PB Blaster, drilling, and hammering with a hardened slot screwdriver. It made enough of a notch that I could get a bite.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rhg1FaHf1oM/Trce8FXotFI/AAAAAAAAAp4/IbpFpPzzYlI/s640/IMG_0355.JPG)
And just to refresh your memory. Before:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lYiHt0M1kN8/TrXfne0e8EI/AAAAAAAAAl4/vlpZVcekPGg/s640/IMG_0573.JPG)
After:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ExQwtj9oKS0/Trce8_WLQpI/AAAAAAAAAqA/xX80OeU5L2Q/s640/IMG_0359.JPG)
Next weekend she WILL fire up.
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She's done! While I wasn't able to get out and ride yesterday due to mother nature deciding we needed rain ALL DAY. In a place that averages 360 days of sunshine, I was frustrated that I wasn't able to go for a break-in ride. But on the other hand, I was glad to see our parched desert get a much-needed soaking. We gotta water all those golf courses, right? ;)
So to the sound of rain pattering on the garage roof, I removed, stripped, cleaned, and repainted the valve covers and installed new brake lines, then bled. With new valve cover gaskets, I hope to solve the annoying slow drip from both sides.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y6Etrpt2WX8/TsE_d47mNFI/AAAAAAAAAtQ/UMgEyOxl_qw/s640/photo%2525284%252529.JPG)
After, but before I sanded the horizontal fins:. I'm sure my neighbors didn't appreciate hearing the buzz of my electric sander at 7 in the morning. ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HlD58dH_6mg/TsE_d8ju3SI/AAAAAAAAAtA/OCl4CL9DGKI/s640/photo%2525283%252529.JPG)
And I got to my first brake bleeding job EVER. It wasn't quite as frustrating as I thought it would be, though there were a time or two when I ground my teeth. I purchased a couple speed bleeders to help with the process.
First off, the system was NASTY. I first bled the left caliper and there was so much muck in the system that as I pumped new fluid in, it just pushed the nasty stuff up into the master cylinder. Brown fluid with bits of rubber lining. It took quite a few flushes to get it all out. I think there was something wrong with the left-side speed bleeder, as it didn't behave as normal. I thought "aren't these supposed to make the process easier?" I actually had to use it like a traditional bleeder and tighten/loosen by hand. But eventually I got it bled. However, the right caliper bled like a dream! It literally took 5-minutes with the speed bleeder.
But I think I got it, and the feel on the lever is nice and firm. A world of difference. Makes sense considering this is what came out:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0VM46ymPxqs/TsE_c3TFUBI/AAAAAAAAAsw/mVAtO_pocUo/s640/photo%2525281%252529.JPG)
Thanks to all of you with your advice and patience as I worked my way through this, which I know is "old hat" to many of you. I learned a lot about the bike, and now am nowhere NEAR as intimidated about it. I have no fear about working on it now.
I will save my Vapor digital speedo/dashboard install for a later date. My intent was to get her back on the road. And just in time, as tomorrow (11/15/2012) will be the two-year anniversary of my father-in-law's passing. I'm going to ride the bike to work in his memory. I think he'd be proud of what I accomplished.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-YZ8Jks1QNSQ/TsE_dD9SfgI/AAAAAAAAAs4/OIyLk3o7x5M/s640/photo.JPG)
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Congratulations on your fine work and documentation. Enjoy your ride, I'll be thinking of you. Dave 2
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Thanks, Dave.
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Graeme,
If the shifter shaft seal is leaky, simply lean the bike over to the right and rest it on some padding. Otherwise, your fresh transmission oil will run out when you pull the shaft and seal.
IIRC, there are a couple different seal sizes. Check yours to see if it has a size embossed on the circumference. Local bearing shop may have your size.
Great work. Excellent photos. Here's to your dad [smiley=beer.gif]
Monte
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Thanks, Monte. I'm not sure the seal is shifter shaft seal is leaking. It sat for well over a week with fresh fluid and when I came out this past weekend, it was bone dry. I probably dripped a bit of gear oil on it when I was filling the transmission. Will keep an eye on it, though.
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Went for my first spin tonight in more than a year! It was only a little jaunt around the neighborhood to make sure everything worked correctly. Shifts great and brakes well. I have a flat spot while accelerating that I've got to figure out. Might need to break them open again but will run some clean gas through (the stuff I put in had a tiny amount of old, possibly bad gas) along with some sea foam.
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Hi nice looking bike mate. I keep reading about sea foam and cleaning carbies. What is this stuff please.
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Hi nice looking bike mate. I keep reading about sea foam and cleaning carbies. What is this stuff please.
http://www.seafoamsales.com/
Essentially it's a fuel additive with cleaning power. Supposedly.
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^^^^ Yep, what he said. Helps keep everything clean.
Well, so much for riding to work this morning. Went out to start it up and when I looked down, noticed a large (and growing larger by the second) pool of fuel on the ground next to my left foot. Traced it back to the carb. Can't tell exactly where it is leaking, as it's coming from the engine side. I took off the bowl and it was flooded. I suspect the float needle isn't seating correctly. I didn't replace it when I rebuilt the carbs but might have to go back in and inspect/replace.
Bummer. Really wanted to ride today...
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Went home on my lunch hour to pay the plumber (long story there...) and quickly dropped the bowl and float. The float needle definitely needs replacing. So I just ordered a new #6 set and a manual from Bing Carbs.
:o When he gave me the total, I just about fell out of my chair. Oh well... it's only money, right?
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I hope the new needles sort out your leak and flat spot. My sister lives in Tucson and she was complaining about the cool wet weather last week, I hope you are back up to riding temps. [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]Dave2
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Thanks, Dave. I'm sure I'll get it figured out soon, though the weather right now is just gorgeous for riding. It was "unseasonably" cool this last weekend but I still chuckle at how wimpy we Tucsonans are when the weather drops below 50F. That is "freezing" to most of us. For me, the cold and rain was a welcome distraction, even if it did keep me off the bmw.
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The rubber tipped float needles can develop a ridge from contacting the seat, and leak at that point. I've succesfully fixed them by chucking in a drill and lightly dressing with fine sandpaper.
Did you try letting some fuel flow (with float bowl off), then raising the float to see if it then turned off? Lots of times, it's just some crud coming through that holds the needle open just slightly.
Another area that's fooled me before - the fuel inlet line tends to deteriorate quickest at the carb. I think it's because the carb does get hot in use, and then fuel sits in the hose after turning off. It's also very close to the transmission, and it gets hot in running too. All these things contribute to that little short bit of fuel line deteriorating much quicker than the rest. And when it starts leaking, if you don't know to check, will drive you nuts!
Also, even though it doesn't seem logical, dealer prices tend to be much cheaper for Bing parts than getting them from Bing.
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There definitely is a ridge in the rubber point from contacting the seat. I'm also not sure how old the floats are. I did not try to lift the floats manually while letting fuel flow. But because there is such an obvious ridge on the needle, I might as well replace them.
I tried to get by with a quick cleaning and new gaskets but looks like that won't fly. So I'll wait for delivery from Bing (this coming Saturday, supposedly) and rebuild the carbs with fresh o-rings, gaskets, floats, and float needles.
Lesson in patience. :)
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Essentially it's a fuel additive with cleaning power. Supposedly.
Thanks Matt - checking the link now....
Back to top
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Carb kits did NOT come on Saturday, but rather on Monday so I haven't had the time (or the daylight) to get them installed. I will try to over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. Probably have to sneak away from the visiting family for a "breather" anyway.
;D
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[size=20]It's alive!
[/size]
I tore into the carbs again yesterday while my wife and mother went Christmas shopping and my father was involved in a good book. I saw that I didn't clean them as well as I should have the first time, so they got another cleaning, and with all new o-rings, floats, pins, etc. I was hoping for a quick start.
Hooked 'em up, turned on the gas and proceeded to watch fuel pour down the left carb and onto the garage floor. I did some inspecting and noticed that the tiny piece of original braided fuel line below the "T" that feeds the left carb was soaking wet. Sure enough, it had been kinked over the years and had split. I just couldn't see it under the braiding. I replaced it with some new line, adjusted the settings, and she fired up and ran strong right away. Took her around the block once or twice to tweak settings.
So happy! She shifts great, and pulls STRONG. Those carbs were obviously in great need of rebuilding.
Just in time... going to ride to work tomorrow!
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Excellent news! I'm excited for you!
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Nice to have some good news in these days of gloom and doom ... enjoy your ride.
Lou
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Rode to work yesterday and was mostly satisfied. Had to stop a couple times and adjust the carbs, because the more it warmed up, the higher it started to rev while idling. Balanced it as best I could by ear (must have looked funny to passing traffic as I had my head down close to the exhaust pipes, trying to hear which one was more dominant). I was 30 minutes late for work and smelling of exhaust, but I got it dialed in close enough that it's running strong. I think I'm going to build one of my own carb-balancers and really do it right.
A couple minor issues.
1) Still an annoying leak from the left valve-cover. I'll just put up with it until I check/adjust the valve clearances sometime in the future.
2) Also notice that the neutral light isn't working. The wiring loom is brand new, and while the neutral switch in the "new" transmission looked okay, I have no idea if it is faulty. It was working (I think) when I pulled the old transmission. Also could be a burnt-bulb or just bad wiring from my FIL's (badly) splicing in the light/dashboard from a r80 G/S. The high-beam light flickers, and I usually have to tap the "dashboard" to get the charge and oil light to come on. Which is just more motivation to get to the Vapor.
So now I'm daydreaming about the Trailtech Vapor installation and how I'm going to build my own little bracket that incorporates the ignition key switch.
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Nice job [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif] I'm happy you brought her back to life. I hope the people at your work were duly impressed that you were performing roadside tuning. Enjoy your riding. Dave2
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A little update now that it's been a couple months.
- Valve covers both dripping oil... probably a half-teaspoon each per night. Annoying but I'll wait a bit until I need to adjust the valves and make sure they're flat and install better gaskets.
- Carbs in pretty good shape. Need to build a home-made balancer. I think they're running a bit rich and idle is set too low. Need to wait until I get the Trailtech tach set up to fiddle.
- Went for my longest ride last night (20+ miles) and found the transmission getting harder and harder to shift. Couldn't get it into neutral and found myself creeping forward while stopped with the clutch pulled all the way in. I never really fully adjusted the clutch so this wasn't a surprise. Fiddled with the handlebar nut just enough to disengage the clutch when stopped. I know not a permanent solution but it got me home. Will do a "real" clutch adjustment tonight.
- Neutral light not working. Not sure if the switch on the "new/used" transmission is bad, or bad wiring/bulb/combination. The small wiring loom to the neutral is brand new.
- Low Beam burned out, along with the horn not working. Not sure if the left control is going bad or just a series of old things breaking. I want to go back to an original BMW bucket/light since the one on it now is an aftermarket dim POS. Would like to see if I can incorporate the ignition key into the bucket somehow since it will be left out with the trailtech installation.
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As far as the leaky valve covers go, what I did was this: adjusted valves as normal, applied new gaskets.. leaked even worse!
So then I doubled up gaskets and it stopped the leak quite nicely. My recommendation if you're a real skin flint (who, me? ::)) is to reuse the old gaskets if you double them instead of buying 4 new ones.
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- Neutral light not working. Not sure if the switch on the "new/used" transmission is bad, or bad wiring/bulb/combination. The small wiring loom to the neutral is brand new.
You should be able to easily rig up a battery-powered test bulb and connect it to the two neutral switch blade terminals. Light on? Good. Next, toggle from neutral to 1st or 2nd gear and see if the lamp does out. Yes? Switch is working.
Next steps would be to check the dashboard bulb for function. If the bulb is good, run a continuity check on the wiring.
If yo uneed a new neutral switch, try Motobins as I did. The repop Italian-made part is less expensive, all metal and won't leak as so often does the BMW OEM part. Get a new BMW-spec crush washer, too. The washer's thickness is kinda sorta critical.
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would be very interested to see the completed dash as its something i have always considered fitting