The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: Biocruiser on February 25, 2008, 04:56:54 PM
-
I picked up my first BMW last week... it's a '79 R65 with about 55k on it. I managed to drive it home and replaced the battery the next day. That seemed to be all it needed right away... then a week later I was about to head out of the city with a few pals for a few hours and... the clutch failed... It made it home... but it wasn't fun. Anyways. I just pulled the transmission and drained the gear oil. It was greenish tan in color... that's not right, is it? What weight gear oil to others run in there R65s?
-
Hi Biocruiser, welcome to the forum.
It appears you have water in the transmission, that would cause the tan colour. The green oil could be a synthetic oil or another brand I'm not familiar with. I run Rock Oil GRO fully synthetic, which is green. Any 80w90 grade gear oil will work, though I do prefer the fully synth. You do realise whatever you use, the same is used for the driveshaft tube and rear drive!?!
As for the water in the gearbox, the most common entry point is the speedo drive on the right hand side where the battery earth is attached. The boot becomes old and stretched and allows the water to literally pour down the speedo cable and into the box. New boots are only a couple dollars and easy to install so make sure you get one.
Bill....................;-)
-
Ditto to what Bill said. When I first drained my tranny the lube was the color of a double latte from starbucks. An added defense to prevent water infiltration is to schemere some grease under the speedo boot before setting it home. Also if your speedo is missing the little rubber cover for the trip meter reset button water can get in that way. The speedo cable will act as a conduit for any moisture that enters there dumping it into your gearbox. I've used Valvoline semi synthetic 80w-90. Use a GL-5 rated oil as per BMW. I've seen it said that GL-4 is preferred due to Bronze parts being affected by GL-5 but I went with the manual recommendation on blind faith.
rich
-
Great info... I guess I'm glad I cracked the rear cover on the transmission even though it appears I didn't need to to get at the clutch (doh). I guess I could have read the manual a bit more carefully before I started turning wrenches... on that note. I just got the friction plate out and it doesn't look too bad... I don't have a caliper to give an exact measurement but it seems reasonably thick. In any case I already ordered another one. Before I pulled this apart I check to make sure the clutch cable had full range of motion, etc., and it did. Now I'm wondering if the clutch "rod" that goes through the transmission might need adjustment? Do these rods need maintenance? How much play should I have on the clutch side of the transmission? Thanks! The sun is out and I'm in the garage!!!
Side question... there's an electrical connection on the bottom of the transmission as seen in my picture. Is this the neutral indicator (which wasn't functioning before).
-
Welcome B-c,
The pushrod that goes through the transmission, should be removed cleaned and lubed, I don't know if it really matters what is used, as I used gear oil for 20 years, with no problem, a high quality grease would work as well.
I have an '81 model, so I'm not familiar with the bearing at the back of the transmission that the rod goes through on a '79 model, they are different, but it should be cleaned and lubed as well.
While you've got the bike apart this far, you may want to think about replacing the rear main seal, and the oil pump cover o-ring.
As far as gear oil, a name brand quality oil is sufficient, I used Castrol gear oil for about 20 years, for convenience, I use BMW gear oil in both bikes, makes it simpler for me !!!
I think that a quality oil changed on a regular schedule, will do the job .
You made the comment that the clutch 'failed' , what exactly were the symptoms ??
-
Symptoms were... smelled a little clutch. This I attributed to the bike having sat for some months before I bought it and some dust building up. Didn't think much of it. Then I noticed when coming to a stop that I needed to apply the brakes in order to keep the bike from moving forward (bad sign). A few minutes later I pulled out of a gas station and the bike died as a came to a stop in traffic. I tried to pull in the clutch and start the bike but this caused the starter to engage and "move" the bike forward. I put it in neutral and started the bike no problem, then gave myself a little running start and put it in second. While not the smoothest looking, this enabled me to get home. Each time I came to a stop light or sign I had to stall the bike or manage to get it in neutral before stalling. Each time a started I had to do the running start trick. I checked to make sure the clutch lever was engaging and it wasn't a cable issue... and it wasn't as far as I could tell. My next culprit was the friction plate itself, though it does appear to have a fair amount of material left... which makes me think of the rod... you mentioned replacing the rear main seal and oil pump cover oil ring... is it best to get these from the local BMW dealer or... any good online sources? Is that kosher to ask on here? Don't want to make any vendors angry or anything, just new...
-
is it best to get these from the local BMW dealer or... any good online sources? Is that kosher to ask on here? Don't want to make any vendors angry or anything, just new...
One of my favorite things about R65.org is that there doesn't seem to be anyone here with a primary commercial interest. A quick look at your local BMW dealers site[Ride West] would make me wonder if they are classic friendly. You can certainly ring them up. Everyone here has a fav or two on line parts houses. I like Hammersley BMW in Va, and A&S BMW in California. Both have websites with parts "fiche" on line. I'm wondering why your clutch was dragging so. Broken pressure plate / spring?
rich
http://www.webparts.com/cycles/
http://www.ascycles.com/illustrated_parts_catalog_main.aspx
Oh, the electrical connection is indeed the Neutral switch
-
I'm not particularly good at troubleshooting clutch problems, but did you have any problems shifting ?
I seem to remember a technique to release a 'stuck' clutch, but it eludes me at this moment, it seems that it isn't an uncommon occurance with bikes that have sat idle for awhile, especially when it's in a damp environment, like the Pacific Northwest US area.
As far as parts, it's probably less hassle, to go to a local, or on-line dealer to get parts, unless you have a local non-BMW source for common parts like seals and bearings.
Get well acquainted with the illustrated parts catalogs, because , unless you have an airhead 'friendly' dealer near you, you are pretty much on your own for researching parts for a 29 year old bike !!!
-
Seems like the natural position for the clutch is off... and that's where I was stuck. I picked up a gel battery from Ride West and talked with their service dept. about having them check the points and adjust the timing on the bike. After a bit of back and forth they determined that since we were talking about a 79 bike the normal shop fees would be adjusted 15% and they weren't able to find a scheduled maintenance sheet for an r65. So... I bought a manual. ::) Hopefully they'll be a good source for parts. Thanks for the links to the fiche. That should help!
Cheers!
-
Adjusted up or down?
-
here it is:
-
Nice looking bike !!!
Appears that it has been well cared for !!
Not a 'barn' find bike.
-
adjusted up 15% for "pre-1980" bikes. i guess that makes sense, but I'm a hands-on vehicle owner...
-
Side question... there's an electrical connection on the bottom of the transmission as seen in my picture. Is this the neutral indicator (which wasn't functioning before).
Yes it is the $33 ^%$#@ neutral switch. Yours has a broken tab which is why it doesn't work. Usually they work but leak due to unsuspecting owners puting them in too tight. Get a fresh crush washer (always use fresh crush washers) and put it in snug. They last one I put in mine (about two weeks ago) had a coating of JB Qwick weld around the posts on the top to help prevent it from leaking tranny fluid.
Change out the tranny drive shaft, and rear drive oil once a year to make sure you dont have water problems. The boot you need it part number 61138080160. I use some heaqt shink tubing around the top (from Radio Shack) to help keep the water out. Some use a tye wrap. Some use some Blue RTV. My tranny, drive shaft, rear drive oil get changed twice a year as I use a heavier weight oil in the summer months. But then my bike is much heavier than the standard R65. 80W90 should be just fine. Just don't forget to change it.
Good luck.
-
I know clutches can fail in the engaged position, but you should have seen some broken stuff when you pulled the tranny. The symptoms sound to me more like a bad clutch cable or not enough free play adjustment. Do you have the owner's manual showing how to adjust the rear lever to be 201 mm from a bolt on the tranny, using the handlebar adjuster, then to adjust the lever free play using the little adjuster behind the tranny?
Good luck, anyway!
-
Maybe I missed this but how much free-play is in the lever? It is possible an adjustment and possibly the "throwout bearing" (at least the BMW equiv) might have failed...
-
Not sure exactly what you mean... when I operated the handle for the clutch it had full range of motion. I disconnected it from the arm at the back of the gear box and used my hand to pull the arm all the way forward and release it. It would move forward and then return to what I thought was it's normal resting place. Unless I have this totally backwards, the resting position is with the clutch disengaged... when you pull in the clutch it pushes the rod forward and engages the clutch, no? When my replacement friction plate shows up I'll compare it to the one I removed. If it's good then the issue has to be somewhere between the arm on the back of the gearbox and the clutch pressure plate... that leaves the rod and the bearing at the rear of the gearbox I think...
-
With the clutch lever released there should be about 1/8" of free-play in the lever or it is very possible (maybe even probable) that the clutch is not fully engaged. This could cause the clutch to slip, no matter how good it is. Also there is an adjustment on the arm on the transmission that can be messed with as well, but try the adjuster at the handlebar end first if you don't have the necessary free-play.
-
For your interpretation of the clutch operation, with the clutch lever 'at rest', the clutch is 'engaged', allowing power to be transmitted between the engine and the transmission, when you pull on the clutch lever, the clutch 'dis-engages', interruptng the 'flow' of power between the engine and transmission, allowing gear changes.
-
new friction plate arrived today... I'm not sure I got the correct one... in the picture the new one is on the left and the old is on the right. The older one is labeled 2121 1237 571 and the new one 2121 7670 1451512. Are these interchangeable?
-
No these clutches are not interchangeable, you need the clutch that's 'bonded' not the riveted type.
The riveted type were used, starting in the 1981 model year.
You need the clutch dics that ends in the part number 571.
-
well that's a bummer. anyone need a clutch plate?
-
If they sold you that disc for your stated application they screwed up and need to send you the correct part - and I would think return shipping on the incorrect one as well.
Have you measured your old disc yet? I think that minimum is around 6.0 mm, mine measuerd 6.47 mm and was getting very abrupt and the engagement point was right at the last about 1/2" of lever travel.
-
I bought the plate through ebay... here's a link to the ad:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290190935905&rd=1
It does say the plate will fit "78-95" r65s. Being new to the bike I didn't realize from the picture that this wasn't the correct disc. Hopefully they'll take it back...
-
The clutch disc you were sent is for '81 and later Airheads as Bob pointed out. If you got it for considerably less than the list price of $126 then you might stand a chance of making a buck or two on it.
-
With shipping I paid $116. I'd be happy to pass it on to anyone who might need it for that price... I am hoping the seller will take it back, but you never know...
-
Okay, wen to the dealer and got the correct plate... I'm putting everything back together... any idea how travel the clutch rod (through the gear-box) should have? It moves back and forth, but I'm having trouble finding a value for how much it should move in my manual. Also... I saw in another post that one of you got a new clutch centering tool... I'm guessing you can eyeball it if you don't have the tool. True? I've done it a number of times with my landcruisers with no trouble...
-
I don't know what you mean by travel; my clutch rod comes all the way out if I want.
I didn't use a centering tool, I just eyeballed it like you said.
-
Well, I made progress... sort of. With the new clutch installed I can pull in the clutch lever and hear a whining noise... but it still won't let me shift into gear. It just pops and stalls. I've adjusted the cable at the handle as far out as possible and tightened the nut at the back of the gear box as much as I can... and there's still not enough pressure to get in gear. Could this just be a bad cable?
-
Here's a method I've used to adjust the clutch cable, it's considered 'wrong' by most people that work on BMW bikes, but it works for me.
Adjust the handlebar adjustment to get all the 'slack' in the cable you can, I think that is in all the way, loosen the 'jamnut' on the adjustment bolt at the back of the transmission, and back the adjustment bolt out, to where the arm has a lot of freeplay.
You should be able to remove the cable from the arm on the transmission, with the cable removed adjust the bolt at the rear of the transmission to get about 1/4 inch freeplay movement in the arm, measured at the end of the arm, tighten the jamnut.
Reconnect the cable to the arm, then go to the handlebar adjustment, and move the adjuster to get about 1/8 th inch freeplay at the lever, that should get you pretty close on adjustment.
-
Basically you want the "throw" of the lever on the transmission to be about in the middle. I adjust the bolt on the lever so the lever is just short of being vertical, maybe 5 degrees or so. I then adjust the lever end for the proper freeplay. I think the book says something about a measurement from the tranny case to lever for setting the "bolt" but I've never paid attention to that. I think that is given as a guide to get the bolt set to the point where the lever is in the "middle" of it's travel.
[size=18]HOW MUCH LEVER FREEPLAY DO YOU HAVE?[/size]
-
I don't know how to measure how much "freeplay" I have. With the cable disconnected from the lever on the back of the gearbox and with the nut on the back of the lever backed out all the way the lever rests on the cross bar attached to the drive shaft and can be pulled forward a few inches from that position. Here are pictures of the lever all the way forward...
-
and at rest...
-
Can you show a picture closeup of where the clutch arm pushes on the back end of the bolt that goes into the pushrod (back, center of transmission) ?
I think that maybe you have the screwed too far in ? IF the adjustments are all in spec but you cannot get the clutch to disengage then it is very possible that
the bearing that is in the back of the transmission that the pushrod pushes on is worn out or busted.
As far as the lubrication of the pushrod goes, I put a bit of moly paste grease on the tip end that goes into the center of the pressure plate, and I usually put a thin coat
of high temp bearing grease on the shaft where it passes through the transmission. Once the transmission is full of good oil, that will also help keep things nice and slippery.
Are you certain that the pushrod itself is not "bent" slightly - it isn't a common failure, but I've seen it happen once..
-
Geeze, help me out here! There is a specific measurement to be taken between the end of the clutch lever and the end of the clutch cable outer cover. Gosh I just can't find it! For some reason 102mm comes to mind but don't trust me. Where in the flaming hell is that diagram? All the other adjustments revolve around this spacing. I also remember something about a 4deg angle on the lever. I'll continue a furious search 'cuz I know I've seen it before.
rich
-
The textbook way to do this is to first adjust the clutch arm and cable length at the transmission, per the diagram included in this thread we discussed about 6 months ago:
http://suraklyn.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1189542314/2#2
Maybe something in that thread will shed some light on this problem..
-
biocruiser, freeplay is defined as how much can you pull the clutch lever in at the handlebar before it starts to stiffen up. Sorry, but I'm not sure I have another way to explain it so maybe somebody else can help me here...
-
I think the problem may lie with the pushrod... it doesn't seem to come "out" of the back of the transmission when at rest... so the arm isn't changing it's position when you squeeze the clutch handle. With the bolt on the back of the clutch lever screwed all the way in it moves it enough to make the clutch partially disengage but not enough to fully disengage. If the clutch arm at the back of the transmission is removed how far should the rod protrude from the the case when at rest?
-
I don't believe it does so you may have a problem with your throwout bearing...
-
Before I bu any more parts I don't actually need... here's what the pushrod looks like at rest. It does move a little in and out (maybe 2mm? but that's about it... should it have more movement?
-
2 mm of movement isn't going to dis-engage the clutch.
Can you pull the pushrod back a bit and take a look at the throw-out bearing ?
There is a threaded hole in the end of the pushrod to thread a tool into it, and extract it, but I'm sure it's a fine metric thread, not easily found, but if you get something in there, if you 'bugger up' the threads, it's not going to make a difference in the operation of the pushrod.
Does the bolt that the arm rides on gouged or worn out in the area where arm sits on it ?
Are the 'ears' on the transmission case that the bolt goes through have round holes, or are they elongated ?
-
2 mm of movement isn't going to dis-engage the clutch.
Can you pull the pushrod back a bit and take a look at the throw-out bearing ?
There is a threaded hole in the end of the pushrod to thread a tool into it, and extract it, but I'm sure it's a fine metric thread, not easily found, but if you get something in there, if you 'bugger up' the threads, it's not going to make a difference in the operation of the pushrod.
snip
On mine I can pull the push rod out with my bare hands.
-
Biocruiser -
I also have a '79. They are different from the 1980-on models (or is that 1981....)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsuraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2FAttachments%2Fr65_clutch_og.jpg&hash=6be3fd8409788cfd9e2a4f665ab64c42a4f1c539)
With the clutch actuation lever (13) removed from the rear of the transmission, along with the small rubber boot (7), you should not be able to push in on that "post" (5) at all. You are pushing against the clutch spring.
What you SHOULD be able to do is pull out that small "post" (5) from the rear of the tranny.
When you do, you should get a round metal piston (also 5) with a rubber seal (6) in a groove around it's circumference.
With that removed, examine the face of the piston for any damage. It should be smooth.
Now you need a small magnet-on-a-stick. You take that and put it in the hole where the piston came out.
You should withdraw a nice, flat, radial bearing (4). If you get a bunch of pieces of junk, you found your problem.
With the bearing removed, you should be able to remove the inner bearing surface (3). It is a flat disc with a hole in the middle for the actuating (push) rod (1) that runs though the center of the transmission input shaft.
With that disc removed, there is no more you can dismantle with the transmission in the bike, or the swingarm in place. The push rod is too long.
I hope I have not repeated too much of what might have already been said.
The bearing is not expensive, and should be examined every few years as they do self-destruct if neglected.
A drop or two of motor oil on the bearing upon reassembly is all that is needed. Don't forget to grease up the lever (zerk fitting (8)) when you are finished.
Also a dab of grease where the cable stay sits in the lower lever.
Clean and grease the cable's pivot point in the hand lever at the top.
THIS SHOULD BE AN ANNUAL CHECK!
The cable stay should ROTATE in the lever, otherwise it is putting a strong binding force on the cable that will eventually break it.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F93825172%2Fsmall.jpg&hash=02c8d10a0bf444c04165e0a2c9120e2efc1b0a09) (http://upload.pbase.com/tomfarr/image/93825172/large)
klikabl pik
-
O.K., I just read through the thread.
Now, if you determine that your clutch is worn (I have my doubts) it means quite a bit of money, but you should not replace the clutch disc without replacing the facing surfaces; the pressure plate and the compression ring. Some people try and save money in this area, but regret it later. The spring should also be measured by laying it flat on a piece of glass, and measuring with a caliper the height of the tips. I cannot find the spec.
I do know that the clutch parts in our early R65's might be considered "more robust" than the later models. We have a much heavier flywheel, and the complete clutch assembly is quite different. There are advantages to both. No biggie. Especially now that you have the correct disc!
Do not try to save money, here, if the disc assembly is truly your problem. Replace all of the parts you need, and you will probably never need to worry about them for as long as you own the bike.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F93823469%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=7b14a9592775deaeaf7698a164a75cd3800b2c43) (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0363&mospid=47851&btnr=21_0068&hg=21&fg=05)
klikabl pik
A VERY important item that has been overlooked, is the condition of the input shaft splines, and their mating surface on your original clutch plate. If the teeth were all dry and rusty, that is probably 80% of your problem right there. On your next trip out, stop at a Honda motorcycle dealer (call ahead) and pick up some Honda Moly 60 spline lube (or equivalent).
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronayers.com%2Fimages%2Fcatalog%2Fpu%2Fmoly_60_paste.jpg&hash=dfb7bed8deb7ec495d494e193684c31a414874f1) (http://www.ronayers.com/catalogs/pu/parts.cfm?topsecid=3&subsecid=24&secid=98&type=1244)
kliky on da piky®
You also don't want the splines to be worn too thin. They can fail, leaving you stranded. In Seattle, if you ride in the rain, I would lube them (pull the tranny, do it right) every year. That means cleaning them off real good, and applying a thin layer of new grease. The grease is ONLY applied to the input shaft of the transmission, NOT the mating splines of the clutch disk. If you grease that, excess grease will be thrown out onto the clutch disk.
Also put a small dab of grease on the tip of the throwout rod where it pushes against the pressure plate (2, above).
These are all things that should have been attended to before your very first ride of significance. Buying a used bike is a very big unknown, and at the very least, a full fluid change and close examination of the tires is in order. More than likely your steering head and swingarm bearings need attention, in order to enjoy your beautiful bike to it's fullest. I love the color!
You have friends in Seattle that you have not met, yet. There are quite a few R65's there!
Pull your rear wheel and examine your final drive splines!!!
Here is an article (http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/finaldrive/index.htm) on final drive splines. Duane's site is very good, but he retired before the R65 was born, so there is not much for the stuff that is unique to our bikes. And there is a lot!
If you don't have an Under-Seat Owner's Manual, get one right now! It is loaded with valuable information. See the sticky post at the top of this page! I will hound you until you get one!
What tire pressures are you running? The information that came with the bike is for 30 year-old tire technology!!! I run about 35 pounds.
-
From my BMW Technical Data Book, for R65 up to 1981:
Clutch play at hand lever 2+ 0.5mm (0.8 +/- 0.02 in.)
Cable length at release arm 201 + 2mm (7.9 + 0.08 in.)
Same specs for up to 1984, and 1985 and up, also.
-
Rob-
Thanks a ton for the detailed info. I know my inspection of the bike should have been more thorough before riding it but... the sun was out... I'm going to pull the push-rod today and see what I find re: bearing. I've already replaced the clutch plate (though I'm doubtful I needed to in retrospect) so I'm not thinking I'll pull the tranny again to replace the spring. The splines looked good and weren't rusty ro worn on the shaft from the transmission.
I did an oil change, a gear-oil change and a main drive oil change... haven't cracked the forks yet. I adjusted the tire pressure as per the table under the seat. I went with the "over 100mph" setting... just kidding.
There was no under seat manual or tool kit with the bike. I found a list of the tools that were included in the original kit that I plan to use to compile my own. I also picked up the "Clymer" shop manual but it's a bit thick for taking along... where would I find a used underseat manual? Any ideas? I looked on ebay...
-
You will probably need reslly good luck to find a used owner's manual, but you can get a new one here:
http://www.capitalcycle.com/body_html/catalog.html
-
Thanks... I ordered one to have on hand.
Well, it certainly looks like it was the bearing... by the schematic in post#42 it looks like I need parts 7, 6, 4 and 3... and maybe 3 & 5? I can't seem to pull part 3 out of the case with a magnet. Should I be able to? And part 5 it pretty dirty from the shattered bearing but I assume I could clean it, re-lube it, put a new rubber gasket on it and be good?
So now that I know (basically) what I need, where can I find part numbers for these in order to... order them? Is the number in the image lower right a number I could have the dealer look up? Like a fiche number or something?
-
here's the part 5...
-
There's a few on-line parts catalogs available, MaxBMW, is one, and RealOEM.com, is another.
Just remember that there was a change in the pushrod design in the 1981 model year, so be sure you get the correct illustration for your application.
-
For part numbers, go to this link: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0363&mospid=47851&btnr=21_0069&hg=21&fg=10
For future reference, go to this link: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do
type in your 7 digit serial number found next to the oil fill hole on the engine block. That will take you to the fiche you need for that engine (hopefully your engine and frame #'s match. Tell me if they don't).
THEN BOOKMARK THAT PAGE!
It will be your friend for life.
Take care on the fork legs when you put the drain screws back in. Easily stripped.
There are A LOT of steel fasteners going into aluminum threads on these bikes. Take care.
-
The small owners manual:
See the link http://suraklyn.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1178250003
It is a sticky at the top of this page. I know I gave you a lot of info in those two posts. You probably missed it.
-
Different serials :(.
Engine is 6580895, frame is 6380893.
Can you tell anything from the SER# like you can with a vin? Manufacture date, etc...?
-
nevermind... the i thought the 3s were 5s... bad eyes.
-
Your frame shows up on the OEM website, but your engine # does not. Please recheck.
You said:
Well, it certainly looks like it was the bearing... by the schematic in post#42 it looks like I need parts 7, 6, 4 and 3... and maybe 3 & 5? I can't seem to pull part 3 out of the case with a magnet. Should I be able to? And part 5 it pretty dirty from the shattered bearing but I assume I could clean it, re-lube it, put a new rubber gasket on it and be good?
Yes, #3 should come out easily with the magnet.
This may be what is stopping the clutch action from happening. You will need to get that thing out of there and clean up the "tunnel" very well. I HIGHLY recommend pulling the tranny to do this work. Mostly because you may need to remove the push rod to get to everything, not to mention being able to LOOK down in the hole.
It sounds like you will be replacing #'s 3, 4 and 6, possibly the piston, #5 as well. The bearing needs to have smooth surfaces on which to spin.
It sounds like you need some moly on those input splines, anyway. Do not blow this off. You will regret it, later.
Now I have to go to work. I'll be back on in a couple of hours.
-
Different serials :(.
Engine is 6580895, frame is 6380893.
Can you tell anything from the SER# like you can with a vin? Manufacture date, etc...?
6380893 - Built in 2/79
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=6380893&kind=M&series=K53&body=ohne&model=R65&zone=USA&prod=19781200&arch=1
-
It's ridable now... but the clutch still doesn't fully disengage when you pull the hand lever. I have all the slack taken out of the cable I can... but it seems like if I could adjust it a little bit more I'd be okay... I'm going to remove the cable and try and measure it to see if it's stretched out or something...
-
The rubber boot can be a bit tricky to install.
I am pretty sure I put the post of #5 through the small hole, first, and then put #5 piston into the transmission and then work the large diameter opening around the casting flange.
Also, make sure your adjuster screw and nut (#9 & 10) are original. We had someone on here that could not adjust their clutch. It turned out a previous owner (PO) had replaced them with "something else". These parts are critical to success.
Apparently you found the small "C" clip that resides in a groove on the pivot pin, so you could take this whole mess apart. Congratulations!
Unfortunately, some folks have lost that C clip, and the pivot pin slides out of one of the ears, putting great and undo pressure on the remaining ear, sometimes breaking it off the back of the transmission.
The best solution is to replace the pin with a shouldered bolt, such as this one. It cannot slip out. It was a SOB to get in, though... (I was probably impatient!)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Ftomfarr%2Fimage%2F86277375%2Fmedium.jpg&hash=57ce7f49d1559ee7b2b91cede4ba5c7cf770a812)
I bought this one from an airhead in Michigan (http://www.boxerworks.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=206698&t=206697).
You can also get them at the local hardware store. I don't think I used the included washer...
-
It's ridable now... but the clutch still doesn't fully disengage when you pull the hand lever. I have all the slack taken out of the cable I can... but it seems like if I could adjust it a little bit more I'd be okay... I'm going to remove the cable and try and measure it to see if it's stretched out or something...
If I had a bike new to me, with unknowns and a mal-functioning clutch, I would immediately replace the clutch cable.
It doesn't matter if you have high handlebars or low, it is the cable length vs. the sheath that is important.
Obviously, if you have high (US) bars, you do not want the shorter cable for the low bars.
I have low bars, and I used a longer cable for quite a few years with no problem.
And if you haven't got that inner bearing race moving around freely, it is not going to work right.
Lube on the splines would help, in case I forgot to mention it, before...
-
And this is a good time to start record keeping, so you will know when you did everything.
-
Rob and Biocruiser, I just want to say that I have found this thread MOST enlightening! Thank you very much! I'm going to print it out! Rob's description of "what is what" needs to maybe go into our tech section here??!
-
I've always been the type to figure things out backwards... generally I start with the most difficult repair and work my way back to the easiest. Must be a mental defect. In any case, here's the re-cap:
- was riding bike and lost the ability to disengage the clutch. I managed to limp home.
- Decided it must be the clutch friction plate. Ordered one online. Waited a week. It was the wrong one.
- With the help of all of you I determined the correct disc. Bought one at the local BMW dealer.
- Pulled the tranny and installed the new plate. Also drained the gear-box and replaced the oil (it was watery).
- Replaced the final drive oil.
- reassembled the bike, no love.
- Pulled the clutch throw-out piston and found a pile of junk (exploded bearing)
- replaced bearing, race, and rubber gaskets.
- adjusted clutch cable to max. tightness (shortest?)
- clutch now operable, but still slipping with hand lever held all the way in.
- pulled clutch control lever again and removed the adjustment bolt at the rear of the arm.
- found it was quite squished at the business end
- replaced... with a longer bolt of the same thread pattern (for testing, I'll get the correct one...)
No love. I think maybe the pushrod is bent or... otherwise non-functional. I was trying to avoid pulling the whole transmission, swing arm, etc., but it looks like I have to. %^$&
-
The transmission comes out WAY EASIER the 2nd time. You will be pleasantly surprised.
Have you installed a new neutral switch, yet? This is the best time to do it!
It is possible that the push rod is bent, I suppose, but more likely the inner race is stuck to it, and the tunnel. This job is not finished, and I don't want to criticize, but you need to do this right if you want a reliable and fun ride.
I had one of these bearings destruct on me back in the early eighties (on my R65). I learned a lot, that day, and I have never had a second one go bad.
-
The rod is definitely stuck in there. I pulled the tranny again and I can't seem to get the rod to come out of the case at all... from either end. In fact the end that pushes on the pressure plate is kind of mashed up (I think it can be smoothed out with a file)... should I just grab the rod from the back of the gearbox and pull?
-
I would remove as much of the offending material that has moved from it's original shape, if you get the pushrod stuck in the transmission input shaft, it's about a $350 part, and a transmission teardown, probably would end up being an overhaul, in the $600 area.
-
With that mess at the front end, I would do my best to drift it out from the rear.
You do not want to hammer too hard. You can easily damage the bearings on the input shaft.
I just learned this the other day, reading about transmission shimming:
http://www.boxerworks.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=218659&t=218580
[size=12]"As for tapping the shafts to seat the bearings after assembly, be careful that you don't damage the bearings in the process. Even a soft mallet has the potential to cause the balls to dent the track (or "race") if used indiscriminately and so shorten the life of the bearings. It's a common reason for premature bearing failure. If you feel the urge to use that mallet, at least try to do so with the shafts turning and the housing warmed up."[/size]
Unfortunately I am afraid I have to recommend replacing the push rod as well as the pressure plate, since that is what the push rod contacts.
I would not be surprised if you could pick up a used push rod for cheap. As I have said before, if I were replacing any clutch (surface) parts (such as the pressure plate), I would go with new.
-
I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a rod messed up like that before. But, I suppose if the throwout bearing was frozen then the rod would effectively "spin" against it's pressure point on the pressure plate and cause melting/deformation like this. Nasty, for sure... Seems I mentioned the throwout bearing being suspect back in post #15 ...
If you can't "tap" it out from the rear with a suitable punch then maybe you can push it forward a bit and grind the "mushroom" shape off the front of the rod and get it to tap out the other way?
-
I don't know much about the earlier clutch models, but if it were me and this were my lighter flywheel '82, I think that I'd grind/cut off that mangled
tip and draw it out the back. I don't think that one can get the rod separated from the 'cup' at the other end easily without pulling it out the back first,
leastwise on the 81 and later models.
Like my grandpa and my father kept telling me, if you're going to do a job, you may as well do it right !
Good luck - I am sure that when you are done with the thorough repair and inspection, this bike will run and ride great. And just think of the wonderful
educational experience you're accumulating with motorcycle mechanicals !
:)
-
This bike IS worth the trouble.
It is easy to imagine that this is what got the bike parked, by the previous owner, in the first place.
And yes, Justin, you did mention the throwout bearing early on in this thread.
nhmaf: I have never taken apart a later model throwout assembly, so I cannot comment on it. Looking at the microfiche, it is obviously a different animal.
I do know that the older ones have these radial-roller bearings, while the newer ones used a cage of ball bearings.
The later is better, because with the roller bearings, the inside part of the bearing is trying to spin faster than the outside.
Clean and inspect annually, is my motto.
-
You can remove the rod from both ends. With the damage you have I would pull it out from the spline end. The race the bear rides on will slip right off the rod. There is a felt pad that goes on the shaft up close to the bearing end. Put some oil on the pad and place it on the rod and slide the rod back in from the input shaft spline end and squeze the pad while pushing the rod. My R90/6 had the bearing go bad and the rod was welded to the pressure plate. If you find that your clutch fells funny and you have to start adjusting the free play very often you will fine that your the bearing is bad or going. The rollers type will probley be the one to go bad more often than the ball type. I have over 80,000 on my 82 R65 and I am change the ball type on this bike because there is a rust spot on the cage and marks on the race. The boot has a small fold after all these years that may have let some water in. I am also changing the boot at the transmission and for the speedo cable.
Don
-
Still not able to get the rod to come out... either though pulling, "drifting," begging, cursing... maybe I need a bigger hammer.
-
re: bigger hammer
I am pretty sure you are joking. Just remember the warning about the bearings.
You may need some sort of rotary tool to grind down the offending "mushroom" on the tip of the pushrod.
-
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsuraklyn.com%2Fyabb%2FAttachments%2Fr65_clutch_og.jpg&hash=6be3fd8409788cfd9e2a4f665ab64c42a4f1c539)
You do have the inner race out of the push rod hole Item #3. It could be stuck on the shaft. Also where the felt pad goes on the shaft item #2 I could see alot of build up of pieces from the bearing that went bad not letting the shaft move. The shaft well come up both ends when every thing is working normaly.
Don
-
It came free... just needed to tap the bearing end a little harder. The bearing race had welded to the rod... with the bearing disintegrated it was causing the rod to try and bore through the pressure plate. Rod and felt to be replaced...
-
Yecch! [smiley=puke2.gif]
-
The first time I tried to replace the felt, I didn't know you had to lube it. I gave up. I may still be running the original.
How does the mating point on the pressure plate, look?
Remember - NO moly lube on the female splines on the clutch plate. Only on the input shaft!
And as long as we are here, how does the input shaft seal look? It is not expensive, and easy to replace (I have heard).
-
I was rooting around in the "have no way to organize" box and found one of the late model plastic throwout bearing pistons that I took out of my '95 RT. That one has a regular bearing assembly and the "arm" also has a needle bearing assembly that the pivot bolt goes through. I wonder if that arrangement would retrofit into the earlier transmission?
-
I was rooting around in the "have no way to organize" box and found one of the late model plastic throwout bearing pistons that I took out of my '95 RT. That one has a regular bearing assembly and the "arm" also has a needle bearing assembly that the pivot bolt goes through. I wonder if that arrangement would retrofit into the earlier transmission?
When my bearing went out on the R90/6 the sent the wrong bearing, races and pistion. The bearing would not work on the pushrod and there is a manufacture difference in the transmission where everything goes.
Don
-
Shaft seal looks good... not so sure about the pressure plate because I don't remember exactly what it looked like in the first place. Is there supposed to be a little hole?
-
I have always seen a small hole there.
Don
-
Watching and reading along here is so much better than TV drama! 8-) As long as I am the guinea pig every once in awhile, I feel OK about using everyone else's problems as a learning experience. If all our bike's ran perfectly we wouldn't need each other so much...do I sound a bit NEEDY ::) Yikes!
-
From the appearance of the push rod tip I expected things to look worse than that picture appears. The level of scoring isn't so bad that you probably could use that
plate again, but for optimum life of the tip on the new push rod that you are putting in, it would probably be advisable to replace it.
-
It has been a long time since I have been in there. I don't remember.
On the Gloomy Gus side, I have to go with nhmaf on replacing the pressure plate.
On the positive side - EXCELLENT photography.
I know I do much better at describing AND understanding what is going on when I can see it.
-
I'm going to replace the pushrod and associated hardware but I'm not planning on pulling the pressure plate. I'm already in $500 above the purchase price and don't have any more $$$ to put into this. If it isn't ridable w/o replacing the pressure plate then I'll probably try and sell it off and get something that runs. Fingers crossed that replacing the clutch control does the trick.
-
So was I right?
Did the transmission come out any faster the 2nd time?
:-X
-
Much easier the second time around!!! I'm still waiting for the parts to show up... also looks to be an r65 being parted out on ebay right now so I might grab some items there as well... brake switch, neutral switch, etc...
-
OK guys, its been three days since the last post.
I am turning blue holding my breathe wiating for the latest update.
Please save me, OK?
Troy
-
Biocruiser,
In case you need a second opinion on some of this, read this thread on Boxerworks:
http://www.boxerworks.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=220671&t=220671
-
Well... I called the dealer today and the last of my parts arrived this afternoon. I'm picking them up in the am and hope to have the bike out of the garage by the afternoon. I'll post up when it's all back together! Cheers!
-
Finally got my new shaft, felt and clutch adjustment bolt... check out how much of the old shaft had worn away... :-?
-
another...
-
Just back from a ride to the grocery store to pick up a celebratory six pack! The bike is back to life! Now to replace that pesky rotor... Thanks for all the help guys/gals. Cheers!
-
I'm, glad you stuck with it and showed it who's boss! [smiley=mad.gif] Now you are in the same boat with the rest of us, too much blood, sweat, tears, and cash invested to even think about getting rid of it! ;D
-
Thanks for all the photos...this was a useful thread to mine from the archives. :)